Clomid + Nolva necessary?

[RustedIron]

^^ hmm id say ad hcg on cycle or towards end of cycle UP to pct ...not in pct as its suppressive. Also the purpose of serms in pct is to antagonize the e receptor and "trick" the body to produce endogenous test - not to control estrogen in any way.
This thread is a good read on this topic: http://forums.steroid.com/showthread...&#.UDy-y6N0jQI

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You're right this is true. The role of ant-e in a PCT is more than just "blocking estrogen". It does stop the negative feedback being sent by Estrogen and tricks the brain into producing more LH. However, it will only produce so much LH. The trick is to increase the level of LH to where it's shocking the testes with unnaturally high levels of stimulation. HCG mimics the body's natural LH.

[Lemonada8]

I'd say it's overkill. There is not an elevated level of estrogen for anti-estrogens to block during this window, as testosterone (now suppressed) is a major substrate used for the synthesis of estrogen in men! Anti-estrogens (SERMs) alone are inadequate to restore normal endogenous testosterone production after a cycle . Anti-estrogens alone misses the true problem: testicular desensitization. You should see about adding HCG to your PCT

You're right this is true. The role of ant-e in a PCT is more than just "blocking estrogen". It does stop the negative feedback being sent by Estrogen and tricks the brain into producing more LH. However, it will only produce so much LH. The trick is to increase the level of LH to where it's shocking the testes with unnaturally high levels of stimulation. HCG mimics the body's natural LH.

Right but missing some subtle details... when u have HCG in a PCT state, u only prolong the inhibition along with increasing aromatase ( hcg does this seperate from its LH actions), so by using it in PCT and providing the LH thats needed from an external source, the natural LH isnt doing its job and that just makes it longer to re-balance the HPTA.

Also, with HCg in PCT, you increase the amount of LH that is produced to become bio-inactive LH ( which is exactly what it says.. it doesnt work) So when the HCG is stopped, the pit is producing LH but its in its inactive form.

HCG is best on cycle because of the neg feedback inhibiting LH from the pit, but you dont have the risk of Intra-testicular Testosterone volume decreasing ( aka teste atrophy aka small balls) which can induce apoptosis of the Sertoli and Leydig cells which only hurts the body in the long run.

Clomid and Nolva ( SERMs) do a very good job in restoring normal test levels after a cycle by their actions at the pit, hence their usage in PCT. Also, ( yes it nit-picky but noobs can be confused) SERM's are NOT anti-estrogens, those are AI's. They only block the receptor and modulate actions at the pituitary, which is taken advantage of in a PCT.