Prolactin - Tren/Deca

[Sworder]

I've backed every dam claim I have ever made with a reference or multiple references.
If you don't believe that, please go through my threads/articles/posts and tell me where I haven't.

The key here is to keep it in normal ranges when "on cycle", not high off the charts and not too low. To low and we can experience a host of other side effects, from loss of labido, energy, joint problems, CNS function, anxiety and erectile dysfunction.

http://forums.steroid.com/showthread...o#.UHPFYFFZZX8

If you call me out like that I am gonna have to respond, not going to scour your threads but I remember reading that one. If you would please show me a study showing the correlation between low e2 and libido(with testosterone levels being in the 50th percentile) I would stand corrected. I have searched far and wide for that correlation but have only found one and that one was lacking in some data. I am not stating I don't believe it, just asking for a reference to the data as you claim to always have one or two. I usually try to refrain from absolute terms such as never or always.

Edit: If you do please send a link in a PM and I will update this post showing the relation. Would like to refrain from soiling the thread with too much off-topic discussions.

[Swifto]

http://forums.steroid.com/showthread...o#.UHPFYFFZZX8

If you call me out like that I am gonna have to respond, not going to scour your threads but I remember reading that one. If you would please show me a study showing the correlation between low e2 and libido(with testosterone levels being in the 50th percentile) I would stand corrected. I have searched far and wide for that correlation but have only found one and that one was lacking in some data. I am not stating I don't believe it, just asking for a reference to the data as you claim to always have one or two. I usually try to refrain from absolute terms such as never or always.

Edit: If you do please send a link in a PM and I will update this post showing the relation. Would like to refrain from soiling the thread with too much off-topic discussions.

Sure.

Run Letrozole and 5mg/ED and tell me what happens to your labido clever clogs.

Are you aware that estrogen is probably the hormone that keeps sex drive up in castrated men? Estrogen receptors are present in tissues involved in sexual behavior including several brain centers and pelvic floor muscles as well.

[Sworder]

Sure.
Run Letrozole and 5mg/ED and tell me what happens to your labido clever clogs.
Are you aware that estrogen is probably the hormone that keeps sex drive up in castrated men? Estrogen receptors are present in tissues involved in sexual behavior including several brain centers and pelvic floor muscles as well.

I apologize for the confusion I was asking for a reference not a proposal on how to conduct a "broscience" experiment. Controlled studies, not personal anecdotes is what counts. I am aware of estrogen's importance and have my own theories on the subject. I will update my first post if you can send me a reference otherwise I do not wish to further the discussion with personal theories. I would appreciate if you could comment on the prolactin posts so we stay on-topic

[Swifto]

I apologize for the confusion I was asking for a reference not a proposal on how to conduct a "broscience" experiment. Controlled studies, not personal anecdotes is what counts. I am aware of estrogen's importance and have my own theories on the subject. I will update my first post if you can send me a reference otherwise I do not wish to further the discussion with personal theories. I would appreciate if you could comment on the prolactin posts so we stay on-topic

What spcifically are you asking for? I stated estrogen has an importance in labdio, crush it and you'll lose your labido. Its not rocket science.

Your asking for a "study" on why having a too low estrogen level means loss of labido? Like I've said, run Letro at 5mg/ED and see what happens to your sex drive. I dont give a f*ck if you think thats "bro science". Just because a double blind controlled peer reviewed study may not exist on healthy males given large doses of AI's so their estrogen is zero or greatly impaired, you're telling me its not relivent. Give me a f*cking break. Dont get too caught up in "studies", sometimes personal experience is also relivant - isnt that whats using steroids is about? Do you know how often studies contradict one another?

Your beginning to anoy me with your nonsense. Go play with fire you moron. And, before you come back with some bullshit on whether or not that comment is needed, it is, it was, otherwise I wouldn't have said it.

[Sworder]

Your beginning to anoy me with your nonsense. Go play with fire you moron. And, before you come back with some bullshit on whether or not that comment is needed, it is, it was, otherwise I wouldn't have said it.

The topic about low e2 has existed for a long time in TRT and low estradiol has not been shown to correlate to low libido or sexual desire as the scientists term it. It hasn't been proven to relate. You stated that if you have low estrogen you will have low libido, you can re-read the quote. Specifically what I am asking for is evidence that this relation exists as I have exhausted a lot of energy on the topic. I would accept low-normal or below range as constituting low estrogen. You seem to try to make it seem like you were saying 0 estrogen, you said low estrogen, below normal range.

Yes, I do not accept personal experiences to hold much value if it is not backed by something proveable. This is why there is so much misinformation out there. Maybe this whole prolactin thing came from a person who was taking other medication which actually cause an increase in PRL? Tren cough now what genius came up with that? Yes, through personal experience and the misinformed conclusions drawn from that.

You said that you always have a reference or two about statements you made. I inquired about a reference to the low e2/low libido issue and you are failing to provide one. I don't know why you are trying to argue further when simply you could kill it with "I don't have a reference it is based on personal experience." How is it nonsense when I am asking you for a source? Don't worry, I don't care much if you call me a moron or use adult language. I can handle it

Edit: Can we get back on-topic instead of pointless arguing?

[Atomini]

What spcifically are you asking for? I stated estrogen has an importance in labdio, crush it and you'll lose your labido. Its not rocket science.

Your asking for a "study" on why having a too low estrogen level means loss of labido? Like I've said, run Letro at 5mg/ED and see what happens to your sex drive. I dont give a f*ck if you think thats "bro science". Just because a double blind controlled peer reviewed study may not exist on healthy males given large doses of AI's so their estrogen is zero or greatly impaired, you're telling me its not relivent. Give me a f*cking break. Dont get too caught up in "studies", sometimes personal experience is also relivant - isnt that whats using steroids is about? Do you know how often studies contradict one another?

Your beginning to anoy me with your nonsense. Go play with fire you moron. And, before you come back with some bullshit on whether or not that comment is needed, it is, it was, otherwise I wouldn't have said it.

I'd just like to point out the validity of these statements here. I'm a man of evidence and science, and 85% of the time I will ask for studies and references to back up claims made by someone. I will also provide studies and references when explaining something, if they are needed wherever.

HOWEVER... there are just some things that are very basic knowledge in a particular field of study that do not require 'studies' or 'references' to understand. For example, I was recently talking to some guy in the gym who is your typical worry wart concerning growth hormones that are pumped into chickens and cows, and how he is deathly afraid of consuming the growth hormones and it having an effect on his body. I proceeded to explain to him how basic molecular biology works whereby these growth hormones are peptide hormones, and should you consume them through your GI tract, they will be ripped apart into individual amino acids by digestive enzymes and stomach acids, thereby effectively eliminating the growth hormone via deconstruction of the peptide. Therefore, the growth hormone ingested cannot possibly have any transferrance in its useable form from the meat you eat into your body and have any effect. He proceeded to say "show me some studies that prove this is true", at which point I got really pissed off and told him "this is BASIC GRADE 10 BIOLOGY, there are no studies, and I am not obligated to reference you to ANYTHING because all you need to do is go and pick up a basic grade 10 highschool biology textbook and look up 'amino acids and proteins' in the index, flip to that page, and start reading!".

With that being said, the excessive lowering of E2 levels in the body resulting in a loss of libido in males IS A FACT. Although, like Swifto, there are no studies (that I know of) that I can present here, I have one of my 2nd year university textbooks, Molecular And Cellular Biology by Stephen L. Wolfe that states in the hormones and receptors subchapter of an endocrine chapter, that loss of libido in males in fact does occur in lieu of excessive drops of E2 levels. If you really really want, I can read through it when I have some free time and locate the specific sentence/paragraph and scan it for you to see.



And a side note here, it is going to be difficult for you to find all of the studies you want on these subjects. The use of AAS for the purpose of physique and performance enhancement is not an officially recognized use by the medical community or the FDA, and therefore there are few studies that exist where test subjects are administered the compounds and stacks that we use, at the doses we use them as well. You'll find them, but there are not many and there is not very much variety in these studies to boot. Unfortunately there is instead a lot of personal experience and anecdotal evidence we must go by with a keen eye instead, and although I wish this were not the case, this is the research environment that has been created by the current legal and moral status of anabolic steroid use for the purpose of performance enhancement. There's nothing you or I can really do about that right now, and clamoring and banging your fists on the table demanding more studies for certain things that may be too basic or things that just have not been covered, are not going to make them just appear.

[Sworder]

I'd just like to point out the validity of these statements here. I'm a man of evidence and science, and 85% of the time I will ask for studies and references to back up claims made by someone. I will also provide studies and references when explaining something, if they are needed wherever.

HOWEVER... there are just some things that are very basic knowledge in a particular field of study that do not require 'studies' or 'references' to understand. For example, I was recently talking to some guy in the gym who is your typical worry wart concerning growth hormones that are pumped into chickens and cows, and how he is deathly afraid of consuming the growth hormones and it having an effect on his body. I proceeded to explain to him how basic molecular biology works whereby these growth hormones are peptide hormones, and should you consume them through your GI tract, they will be ripped apart into individual amino acids by digestive enzymes and stomach acids, thereby effectively eliminating the growth hormone via deconstruction of the peptide. Therefore, the growth hormone ingested cannot possibly have any transferrance in its useable form from the meat you eat into your body and have any effect. He proceeded to say "show me some studies that prove this is true", at which point I got really pissed off and told him "this is BASIC GRADE 10 BIOLOGY, there are no studies, and I am not obligated to reference you to ANYTHING because all you need to do is go and pick up a basic grade 10 highschool biology textbook and look up 'amino acids and proteins' in the index, flip to that page, and start reading!".

With that being said, the excessive lowering of E2 levels in the body resulting in a loss of libido in males IS A FACT. Although, like Swifto, there are no studies (that I know of) that I can present here, I have one of my 2nd year university textbooks, Molecular And Cellular Biology by Stephen L. Wolfe that states in the hormones and receptors subchapter of an endocrine chapter, that loss of libido in males in fact does occur in lieu of excessive drops of E2 levels. If you really really want, I can read through it when I have some free time and locate the specific sentence/paragraph and scan it for you to see.

And a side note here, it is going to be difficult for you to find all of the studies you want on these subjects. The use of AAS for the purpose of physique and performance enhancement is not an officially recognized use by the medical community or the FDA, and therefore there are few studies that exist where test subjects are administered the compounds and stacks that we use, at the doses we use them as well. You'll find them, but there are not many and there is not very much variety in these studies to boot. Unfortunately there is instead a lot of personal experience and anecdotal evidence we must go by with a keen eye instead, and although I wish this were not the case, this is the research environment that has been created by the current legal and moral status of anabolic steroid use for the purpose of performance enhancement. There's nothing you or I can really do about that right now, and clamoring and banging your fists on the table demanding more studies for certain things that may be too basic or things that just have not been covered, are not going to make them just appear.

The use of AAS to increase libido is officially recognized by the medical community and the abundance of FDA approved testosterone shows consent. I believe estrogen to be important in sexual desire and libido as well. This is a personal theory though which I firmly stand by. Swifto says he always has references for every statement he makes. I was curious about the low estrogen = low libido statement as I have struggled to find a reference for that notion as well. Once again, I am not saying that you will have a functioning libido with 0 estrogen. I am saying that the low-normal or even low estrogen as shown in the study jimmy provided will yield in a functioning libido. Again, I believe in estrogen's importance in libido...

Saying that it is "too basic" to conduct studies on is false Atomini! There are plenty of "basic" studies out there, testosterone to show increase in muscle mass is very basic and there are TONS of studies on that topic. The best argument for why there is no studies on the libido/estrogen subject would be somewhere along the lines that libido doesn't empirically exist and to try to discredit the questionnaires they use or something. I am not trying to have a discussion about the topic, I have been searching for a reference for low libido/low estrogen myself and was hoping to find it as Swifto always has one!