TRT - Self Administered?

[gbrice75]

Oh my!! Sounds like you crossed paths with a real quack!! The best thing you stated out of that whole post was, "I'm definitely not going back to this guy". That's the best move you could do.

Thanks for the reassurance!

As I see it, you're on TRT because your HPTA probably isn't functioning properly already, and/or your testicles (primary) were not functioning and producing testosterone efficiently. However, if the HCG was working, then it's pretty safe to say you had a secondary condition you first started. At this stage, if you run all the labs, your HPTA is going to show suppression regardless if you were primary or secondary.

When you say "if the HCG is working" - with regards to what specifically? As far as I can tell, I have no way to know if they're producing endogenous test. I can happily say that I don't believe there has been any shrinkage, and there is definitely no pain. I am also awaiting semen analysis results, and hoping to see good quality sperm with a healthy count.

What would be an example of a secondary condition? I assume primary would be either a problem with the testicles themselves, or the pituitary. Would secondary be the result of an injury for instance?

Presuming you were put on TRT due to low T to begin with. It might not hurt to get an MRI since nobody ever ruled out a tumor, or even confirmed your diagnosis, but if the worse thing is that you need TRT for life, then there's no harm with just replenishing your body with a balanced amount of testosterone, which you would be naturally producing if everything worked accordingly.

I just get freaked out once in a while... like... what might be the long term effects of total HPTA suppression... what might be the long term effects of producing absolutely no FSH or LH, etc.

And the comment your endo made about HCG (spitting on a fire), just shows what his value is. He is worthless, plain and simple! I don't have a problem that some of these guys don't like injection steroids and other compounds to treat men, that's their prerogative. However, the issue is that they just make up propaganda without any facts. E.g., your endo stating that "ideally" injections should be done every 2 weeks. Here he is lecturing you about peaks and valleys, yet he knows nothing about half-life and what 14 days will do to a patient. In response, dealing with endos like this one is more like throwing grease into the fire. He (and others like him) are more detrimental to a patient than anything else! It's sad to know that we have new members on this forum with less than a week of educating, who basically know more about HRT than a doctor with a lifetime of experience.

Well said brother. Don't get me wrong - I am EXTREMELY glad to have guys like you, Kel, GD, etc. available for consultation like this. But it is a shame that I/we have to go to the doc first and THEN come to a steroid board to get the real scoop from relative strangers.

For now... fingers crossed for the semen analysis results. If sperm count is low and/or motility abnormal (both were in a healthy range when I last had a test done about 2 years ago), I'll have no choice but to come off TRT, run an aggressive PCT and try to get the boys up to par as my wife and I would like to have another baby ASAP!

[Vettester]

Thanks for the reassurance!



When you say "if the HCG is working" - with regards to what specifically? As far as I can tell, I have no way to know if they're producing endogenous test. I can happily say that I don't believe there has been any shrinkage, and there is definitely no pain. I am also awaiting semen analysis results, and hoping to see good quality sperm with a healthy count. In my case, I definitely noticed a difference when I started taking HCG. Not only did my testicles increase in size, but the ejaculation volume went through the ceiling (literally). My left testicle is super sensitive to being suppressed, and it will act up if I miss a shot of HCG, or if my HCG starts to lose it's potency (seen that start at/around 48 to 50 days). Everyone is different, but if HCG is effective, you should notice some improvements, as listed above, or you should notice it going the other way if you stop taking HCG

What would be an example of a secondary condition? I assume primary would be either a problem with the testicles themselves, or the pituitary. Would secondary be the result of an injury for instance? Secondary can occur due to many reasons (tumors, substance use, thyroid conditions, etc), including no reason at all, but just getting older. The getting older part is also known as Andropause; basically mimicking a similar process that women see with menopause. It's just nature's way of telling us that we have passed our peak years for procreation, and we are no longer the competitive young guys trying to make a name in the tribe. YES, primary would indicate a problem with the testicles, leydig cell issues, tumors, other pathologies ... We normally see members having elevated LH/FSH levels and low test serum when there's a testicular (primary) condition.



I just get freaked out once in a while... like... what might be the long term effects of total HPTA suppression... what might be the long term effects of producing absolutely no FSH or LH, etc. There is really no negative prognosis associated with long-term HPTA suppression, except that the natural course of testosterone/sperm will be effected due to no or little LH/FSH being produced, and functioning via the negative feedback loop channel with the testicles. The anterior pituitary could also be experiencing other issues with synthesizing hormones like TSH, ACTH, Prolactin, and of course GnRH; leading to LH/FSH. So, it's imperative to run complete and comprehensive assays for comparative reviews, and to include MRI's to rule out tumors and other diseases.



Well said brother. Don't get me wrong - I am EXTREMELY glad to have guys like you, Kel, GD, etc. available for consultation like this. But it is a shame that I/we have to go to the doc first and THEN come to a steroid board to get the real scoop from relative strangers.

For now... fingers crossed for the semen analysis results. If sperm count is low and/or motility abnormal (both were in a healthy range when I last had a test done about 2 years ago), I'll have no choice but to come off TRT, run an aggressive PCT and try to get the boys up to par as my wife and I would like to have another baby ASAP!


GB, since HCG provides the LH analogue, you will probably see "less than satisfactory" results with your sperm analysis and motility labs. FSH is the primary hormone and signal to trigger spermatogenesis. Save yourself the hassle of coming off TRT to achieve this. Your reason to do this would be to apply a PCT, like Clomid, which would stimulate both LH & FSH production, correct? Well, then just add HMG to protocol, very similar to HCG, but with HMG you will get both the LH and the FSH analogs! I would advise seeking out a fertility physician that is familiar with this treatment. Again, the sertoli cells respond to FSH, as do the leydigs to LH. It doesn't matter how they get these hormones, just as long as they get them. You can come off of TRT and try to naturally provide these cells the needed hormones to function, or you can stay on TRT and guarantee that both LH and FSH will be sent to them. The only variable is, how healthy and functional are the testicles? Only BW can tell the truth on that one ... So to conclude, you actually do have a choice in the matter. For me, the choice is obvious, WHY come off of TRT when science has made it possible for you to have the best of all worlds? Food for thought.

GB, responses in bolds

[gbrice75]

GB, responses in bolds

Wow Vette, thanks for all of the detail - and I clearly have a lot to think about. I was under the impression that since we use HCG to maintain regular testicular function (including spermatogenesis), semen analysis labs should come back relatively 'normal'. It upsets me to read anything to the contrary... but we'll just have to see. I do know 3 guys (all members of this board) who are all on TRT and cycle regularly, but all managed to knock up their respective ladies. That does give me some light at the end of the tunnel.

I have looked into HMG, actually before starting TRT.. but as you probably know, it's EXTREMELY expensive. If I recall, a single shot is upwards of $30. From what I've read, it's basically equal parts FSH/LH. I'm actually wondering if introducing Clomid while still on TRT would have any effect?

[FONZY007]

Wow Vette, thanks for all of the detail - and I clearly have a lot to think about. I was under the impression that since we use HCG to maintain regular testicular function (including spermatogenesis), semen analysis labs should come back relatively 'normal'. It upsets me to read anything to the contrary... but we'll just have to see. I do know 3 guys (all members of this board) who are all on TRT and cycle regularly, but all managed to knock up their respective ladies. That does give me some light at the end of the tunnel.

I have looked into HMG, actually before starting TRT.. but as you probably know, it's EXTREMELY expensive. If I recall, a single shot is upwards of $30. From what I've read, it's basically equal parts FSH/LH. I'm actually wondering if introducing Clomid while still on TRT would have any effect?

GB I came off trt and had a babygirl successfully.. I did a pct with clomid and HCG, before I was out of the PCT she was pregnant!! I waited till she was past her first trimester and jumped back on my trt

[gbrice75]

GB I came off trt and had a babygirl successfully.. I did a pct with clomid and HCG, before I was out of the PCT she was pregnant!! I waited till she was past her first trimester and jumped back on my trt

Very nice bro, congrats! Did you come off because you were unsuccessful conceiving for some time while on, or did you just come off in an effort to better your chances right off the bat? If the former, how long did you try before coming off?

[FONZY007]

Very nice bro, congrats! Did you come off because you were unsuccessful conceiving for some time while on, or did you just come off in an effort to better your chances right off the bat? If the former, how long did you try before coming off?

Sorry didn't know you responded, just got off right off the bat.. And like less than 2 months she was pregnant