orals and liver protectant?

[ironbeck]

No it does not.

What is the ratio of patients in this world suffering from C17-alpha alkylated oral-induced Cholestasis of the liver to those suffering from liver damage as a result of excessive Tylenol use? Or Hepatitis C? The answer is: too small to even be able to come up with a ratio. How many doctors every year in the ER receive patients with oral AAS induced Cholestasis? The average ER in most hospitals probably sees NONE.

And not all hepatotixicity and liver damage is the same. Cholestasis resultant of oral AAS use is very specific. Hepatitis is the result of liver death from infection of the liver by viruses that attack hepatic cells. I am no liver specialist and even I know these things! Let me educate you on something... For example, people need to understand that UDCA/TUDCA is an amazing liver protectant but is limited to hepatotoxicity and damage as a result of Cholestasis (caused by oral AAS use or otherwise), Hepatitis (to an extent), and alcohol-induced hepatotoxicity. HOWEVER, UDCA/TUDCA is near useless for acetaminophen-related liver damage (Tylenol). Liver damage from acetaminophen is completely different from liver damage caused by AAS or alcohol. UDCA/TUDCA is very beneficial for treating the condition i've mentioned many times known as Cholestasis, which is what oral anabolic steroids are responsible for causing. Acetaminophen-related liver toxicity is really something completely different. When acetaminophen is metabolized by the liver, some of it is metabolized into a toxic byproduct known as NAPQI (which stands for N-acetyl-p-benzoquinoneimine). When acetaminophen is taken in recommended doses, your body can quickly remove this toxic by-product in the urine. However, when the liver needs to suddenly metabolize overdose or very frequent levels of acetaminophen, too much of the toxic NAPQI is produced and it starts injure and destroy the main cells of the liver because of how destructive and toxic the NAPQI is. This is not Cholestasis, which is characterized by either physical or chemical obstruction of bile flow within the liver. UDCA/TUDCA will do nothing against acetominophen-induced liver damage.

This is the problem when people read about UDCA/TUDCA or any related such things, they think it is the king liver protectant against EVERYTHING harmful to the liver. No. Absolutely not. Different things that are hepatotoxic are hepatotoxic for different and often unrelated reasons. UDCA/TUDCA just happens to be very good at assisting the liver in dealing with minor to increasingly severe Cholestasis. It can't really do very much for NAPQI toxicity. Many studies have demonstrated the immaculate ability for UDCA/TUDCA to heal the liver from severe Cholestasis and assist proper bile flow to start operating normally again.

I honestly don't give a flying rat's ass if some particular doctor is the leading liver specialist in the world. If she makes a statement like "nothing is the best protectant for the liver" right in the face of evidence to the contrary as demonstrated by clinical studies and vast amounts of evidence, then this doctor you speak of is just plain ignorant, uninformed, and quite frankly, HUBRIS!!! NO doctor should be like this, and no doctor should be throwing out statements like that ESPECIALLY if they are a prominent liver specialist as you suggest. That is the most unnaceptable attitude for any doctor to have, and she should be ashamed of herself.

She should be ashamed of herself for making such a hubris statement in the face of many studies that have been done on the benefits of use of TUDCA/UDCA on Hepatitis C patients with very positive results. Here, i've got some links and quotes for you,

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/17943781

Bile acids for viral hepatitis. Chen W, Liu J, Gluud C. Toronto Western Hospital, University Health Network, University of Toronto, Liver Clinic, Room 181, 6B Fell Pav, 399 Bathurst St, Toronto, Ontario, Canada, M5T 2S8. [email protected]



http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/9840118

Tauroursodeoxycholic acid for the treatment of HCV-related chronic hepatitis: a multicenter placebo-controlled study. Crosignani A, Budillon G, Cimino L, Del Vecchio Blanco C, Loguercio C, Ideo G, Raimondo G, Stabilini R, Podda M. Division of Internal Medicine, School of Medicine San Paolo, Milan, Italy.




http://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/1...615.x/abstract

Effect of tauroursodeoxycholic acid on bile acid-induced apoptosis in primary human hepatocytes. European Journal of Clinical Investigation.



There are even more studies out there that have shown positive liver repair benefits from UDCA/TUDCA for Hepatitis victims. TUDCA/UDCA has assisted SO MANY people in improved liver function and recovery to the point where they are either cured or to the point where they can function normally because UDCA/TUDCA has brought their livers at neat 100% health. TUDCA/UDCA has worked so much better than anything else for liver health out there that the medical establishment has jumped all over it since its demonstrable evidence has been expounded. As a result, UDCA/TUDCA raw powders for synthesis into tablets or medication is now very scarce on the market because of how much big pharma has caught onto it.

Doctors that make such hubris statements about any particular issue concerning the treatment of ailments and disorders despite all of the evidence to the contrary should have their practicing license revoked. Seriously. I know one individual whom I was close with that died of Hepatitis C and suffered a great deal because her doctor was so closed-minded as to the different treatment options that I was telling her to ask her doctor about. Absolutely disgusting.

Your knowledge is great concerning AAS and many other things, but in this case I will take the one on one conversation I had with one of the top 50 liver specialist in the whole friggin world talking to me in laymen terms, This liitle, fragile lady of india decent just plainly told me everything u put in your pie hole gets processed by your liver, the more things u put in it the harder it works, water and nothing else is best. Since she has the medical degrees(plural) 8 + post graduate yrs...
No offense their Atomni you are an estute dude and I value your advise, I will have to agree with the little old lady on this one lol

[Atomini]

Your knowledge is great concerning AAS and many other things, but in this case I will take the one on one conversation I had with one of the top 50 liver specialist in the whole friggin world talking to me in laymen terms, This liitle, fragile lady of india decent just plainly told me everything u put in your pie hole gets processed by your liver, the more things u put in it the harder it works, water and nothing else is best. Since she has the medical degrees(plural) 8 + post graduate yrs...
No offense their Atomni you are an estute dude and I value your advise, I will have to agree with the little old lady on this one lol

No offense taken and everyone has to take some side in any debate, but you have to see where i'm coming from on this. How in-depth did you go into liver discussions with this doctor? In what context did this doctor claim that "nothing is worth using for liver repair"? I'm sorry, but I have to side with the evidence rather than some person's opinion, despite how much time someone has put into any discipline. There are plenty of people who have put in many years of effort into something that all goes down the drain because of a little opinion of theirs that flies against mountains of evidence that makes their opinion plain wrong. What this doctor said, as far as I know from what you have told me, is tantamount to those weirdo 'creation scientists' that are indeed doctors and scientists with impressive credentials that claim the earth is only 5,000 years old in the face of the massive amounts of evidence to the contrary (I mean, come on). I never put someone's credentials above and beyond the TRUTH, and if someone is saying something that goes against evidence to the contrary, then i'm sorry: back it up with evidence.

And if the person cannot possibly show me evidence that:

- TUDCA/UDCA does not work for individuals suffering from cholestasis (oral AAS caused or otherwise)
- Various liver antioxidants do nothing
- "Nothing is the best protectant for the liver"

Yet they are still insistent in their claim(s), then that person loses all credibility in my eyes, I don't care who they are or what title they hold. But what you're telling me is that despite the numerous clinical evidence i've shown you (not including the other evidence out there that I didn't cite), that you will choose to accept someone's opinion to the contrary of the evidence i've shown you just because they have X amount of years under their belt in Y field of medicine instead of the truth?

Well alright then, that's your choice, and you have the freedom to choose as you wish. But I care too damn much about the truth to side with an individual's opinion 'just 'cause they have X years of education and Y years of experience in the field" and I think it is a very strange and illogical and irrational decision, and I fail to understand the motivation behind it.

[ironbeck]

No offense taken and everyone has to take some side in any debate, but you have to see where i'm coming from on this. How in-depth did you go into liver discussions with this doctor? In what context did this doctor claim that "nothing is worth using for liver repair"? I'm sorry, but I have to side with the evidence rather than some person's opinion, despite how much time someone has put into any discipline. There are plenty of people who have put in many years of effort into something that all goes down the drain because of a little opinion of theirs that flies against mountains of evidence that makes their opinion plain wrong. What this doctor said, as far as I know from what you have told me, is tantamount to those weirdo 'creation scientists' that are indeed doctors and scientists with impressive credentials that claim the earth is only 5,000 years old in the face of the massive amounts of evidence to the contrary (I mean, come on). I never put someone's credentials above and beyond the TRUTH, and if someone is saying something that goes against evidence to the contrary, then i'm sorry: back it up with evidence.

And if the person cannot possibly show me evidence that:

- TUDCA/UDCA does not work for individuals suffering from cholestasis (oral AAS caused or otherwise)
- Various liver antioxidants do nothing
- "Nothing is the best protectant for the liver"

Yet they are still insistent in their claim(s), then that person loses all credibility in my eyes, I don't care who they are or what title they hold. But what you're telling me is that despite the numerous clinical evidence i've shown you (not including the other evidence out there that I didn't cite), that you will choose to accept someone's opinion to the contrary of the evidence i've shown you just because they have X amount of years under their belt in Y field of medicine instead of the truth?

Well alright then, that's your choice, and you have the freedom to choose as you wish. But I care too damn much about the truth to side with an individual's opinion 'just 'cause they have X years of education and Y years of experience in the field" and I think it is a very strange and illogical and irrational decision, and I fail to understand the motivation behind it.

Yea k, this debate will go nowhere, u are comparing some wacko idiots to the person I mentioned....good luck.

[Atomini]

Yea k, this debate will go nowhere, u are comparing some wacko idiots to the person I mentioned....good luck.

LOL, i'm sorry. I don't know this female doctor personally, so that was the closest comparison I could make. Either way, I think we have demonstrated our positions quite clearly and that we can agree to disagree.