Steroids and Body Fat: I Disagree

[Metalject]

In the immortal words of Joe Pesci, "allow me to retort";

For starters, I'm not clear on who your argument is with? I dont believe i have ever seen anyone suggest that using AAS while BF is at unfavorable levels that it would be, "pointless, disastrous or both." Nor has anyone, that i have seen or read here, commented that "You won’t be able to combat side effects" or that "You won’t get any thing out of your cycle". Those are clearly two extremes that youve misrepresented to support your opinion. Nothing wrong with having an different opinion. But this is untrue on this site, imho..

Myself, and others here, are huge advocates for reducing BF to levels more conducive to preventing unwanted side effects. And what is that levels you ask? I believe through personal experience, other individual accounts, sound research, and empirical data, that the higher your BF the more susceptible you are to experiencing unwanted sides. And these sides include, but are not limited to, ED, water retention, acne, heart disease, and a host of others.

Your argument is weak at best, but your point is clear. I agree that there is no magical number or threshold etched in stone. However the point that I and others try to convey is, the lower your BF, the less likely you will experience unwanted sides.

Really? I see comments that insinuate what I said in the original post on here every day. That's why I decided to post this thread...I didn't pull it out of thin air. Now I'll admit, people may not say things verbatim as I listed them, but that is the overall theme IMO. If I went through every thread on here where a guy talks about doing a cycle and he list his body fat between 15-20% it would probably take me years to count all the replies that tell the guy he should diet naturally first and then use gear.

And I agree, the more body fat you have the harder it can be to control estrogenic side effects...more fat more aromatization but it can be controlled and it's really not that hard. Men who are 20%+ BF are prescribed TRT every day, and the heavier you are, typically the higher your TRT dose will be. However, with proper therapy each and everyone of these men reach a better state of health...granted, this is assuming there are no underlying health issues, that would change the game.

It's also important IMO to consider unknown factors...things do not always work like we think they should. Here's another good example taken from my own experience. I started using gear at 20yrs old and used heavily for 10+ years. Not once during any off-season phase did I ever have gyno symptoms, ED, acne or any other issue. Sure, I would get a little bloated but no serious issues. And believe it or not my entire time bodybuilding I had my blood work done every 16wks like clockwork....never had a single issue of concern. Now, the only time I ever had any gyno symptoms was in one case when I was at a very low BF, low single digits. I was able to remedy the situation. My point, body fat while an important factor is not the end all be all. Estrogen and related estrogenic effects can be controlled when you're at a higher BF...again, I'm not talking about obese.

Where is the cutoff point? When would I say a guy is too fat to use gear? That's a hard question to answer. In the case of TRT I would say most men, even those who are significantly overweight would probably benefit from a good TRT plan...the benefits would outweigh the risk...morbidly obese this could change things, perhaps. As for actual cycling...I don't know if I have this answer. I don't buy into the 15-20% range is too fat to safely use gear, that I can say with certainty.

[warmouth]

And I agree, the more body fat you have the harder it can be to control estrogenic side effects...more fat more aromatization but it can be controlled and it's really not that hard. Men who are 20%+ BF are prescribed TRT every day, and the heavier you are, typically the higher your TRT dose will be. However, with proper therapy each and everyone of these men reach a better state of health...granted, this is assuming there are no underlying health issues, that would change the game.

This is the reason I mentioned TRT earlier. Out of me, my cousin, and 2 close friends (all the same age), me and my cousin are the leanest and the other 2 fat guys are on double the amounts of testosterone as we are, and we have the same doctor. Fat guys normally have higher estrogen supression anyways, from my little bit of understanding with TRT. They use Anastrozol, and we use nothing prescribed.

[MickeyKnox]

Really? I see comments that insinuate what I said in the original post on here every day. That's why I decided to post this thread...I didn't pull it out of thin air. Now I'll admit, people may not say things verbatim as I listed them, but that is the overall theme IMO. If I went through every thread on here where a guy talks about doing a cycle and he list his body fat between 15-20% it would probably take me years to count all the replies that tell the guy he should diet naturally first and then use gear.

The replies that you would be counting are the same ones i would be. And they would basically be similar to my recap. Using gear above 15% BF is not wise for the reasons already listed and supported. Again, i agree with you that is not set in stone but it's certainly a good guideline.

And I agree, the more body fat you have the harder it can be to control estrogenic side effects...more fat more aromatization but it can be controlled and it's really not that hard. Which is it? It cant be both lol. Men who are 20%+ BF are prescribed TRT every day, and the heavier you are, typically the higher your TRT dose will be. However, with proper therapy each and everyone of these men reach a better state of health...granted, this is assuming there are no underlying health issues, that would change the game.

Im not talking about TRT designed to replace testosterone. Im referring to supraphysical doses.

It's also important IMO to consider unknown factors...things do not always work like we think they should. Here's another good example taken from my own experience. I started using gear at 20yrs old and used heavily for 10+ years. Not once during any off-season phase did I ever have gyno symptoms, ED, acne or any other issue. Sure, I would get a little bloated but no serious issues. And believe it or not my entire time bodybuilding I had my blood work done every 16wks like clockwork....never had a single issue of concern. Now, the only time I ever had any gyno symptoms was in one case when I was at a very low BF, low single digits. I was able to remedy the situation. My point, body fat while an important factor is not the end all be all. Estrogen and related estrogenic effects can be controlled when you're at a higher BF...again, I'm not talking about obese.

Here's my own experience. Ive discovered that i cannot adhere to the standard protocols of AI's. That's right, i use i higher amount ALWAYS. And it doesn't matter whether im on TRT (which i am btw) or on cycle. My AI is ALWAYS dosed higher than any current standard protocol. But that doesn't mean that everyone else should dose it my way. There has to be a guideline in order for us to give safe sound and responsible advice to new AAS users. And to ME, 15% seems like a fair benchmark given the enormous amount of information available about BF, adipose tissue, aromatase, and AI's, sides, and consequences.

Where is the cutoff point? When would I say a guy is too fat to use gear? That's a hard question to answer. Youre right. But i did my best so far in this threwad. In the case of TRT I would say most men, even those who are significantly overweight would probably benefit from a good TRT plan...the benefits would outweigh the risk...morbidly obese this could change things, perhaps. As for actual cycling...I don't know if I have this answer. I don't buy into the 15-20% range is too fat to safely use gear, that I can say with certainty.

Great post Metalject.

Reds..

[Metalject]

Great post Metalject.

Reds..

Sure, 15% is a good guideline. I don't have any problem with that. I simply don't like the set in stone mentality some (many) tend to lay out. I don't care for insinuating disaster just because someone's over 15% BF...that's insanity IMO.

The "It can't be both comment.".....my point was simply that extra BF can make estrogenic effects harder to control or more aptly put they may need more attention....again, it depends on the guy. However, it can be controlled. Just because you may or may not have to give something more attention does not mean you can't control it. You know, just like how some guys have a difficult time controlling cholesterol while others don't. I've never had cholesterol or blood pressure issues but I still recognize some have to put more effort into controlling theirs than I do.