Necessity of an AI on High Dose Test Cycle

[rmbX66t1]

So, to lay the foundation a little bit here, I've got plenty of experience with tesosterone, among many other anabolic/androgenic substances. And I'm playing with ideologies here, to find what I respond the absolute best to. Which leads me to my current cycle (I'll spare many of the details), involving a high dose of only testosterone enanthate.

In the past, I've always carried my ancillaries on-hand, but generally never encountered any side effects. When running trenbolone at doses over 500mg per week (regardless of my testosterone dosage) there were issues with erectile disfunction, that were easily solved with proper dopamine agonists. However, in regards to estrogen related side effects, I've yet to even notice bloat (or anything else, for that matter). Fundamentally, I'm a bit of a believer in the concept of "if it ain't broken, don't fix it," or, in other words: don't introduce compounds that are not necessary.

This leads me to my question here for you guys: when I start pushing the limits on dosages, should I begin introducing an aromatase inhibitor, regardless of the fact that no estrogen related side effects are evident? Of course, I'll be utilizing bloodwork, to monitor the numbers. But what is more important, controlling the range of estrogen or controlling the side effects derived from estrogen?

[BBJT200]

I'd strongly recommend using an AI to control the range of estrogen; regardless of side effects being present, high e2 has health issues associated with it

[stpete]

Use your AI. An ounce of prevention is worth a pound of cure. Simple.

[Bio-Active]

If you are using high doses of test you will need an AI and bloodwork will show it.

[rmbX66t1]

I'd strongly recommend using an AI to control the range of estrogen; regardless of side effects being present, high e2 has health issues associated with it

I would think that high free testosterone also brings forth health issues. I guess the evolution of the question becomes: how integral is the equilibrium of testosterone and estrogen, in developing muscle mass?

Use your AI. An ounce of prevention is worth a pound of cure. Simple.

I love the motto, but would appreciate some elaboration.

I apologize if I am coming off as a ball buster, guys. I truly prefer to understand all aspects of a circumstance, before I act upon it. Information is power and explanation is the best lesson.

If you are using high doses of test you will need an AI and bloodwork will show it.

There is no doubt in my mind that bloodwork is going to show a massive elevation in estrogen. But, my original question is, what is necessary to control: the elevation of estrogen or the side effects it causes? Which BBJT200 has started to dive into, when referring to the health concerns of elevated estrogen levels.

[BBJT200]

How's your blood pressure?

[rmbX66t1]

How's your blood pressure?

Better than one would think. I won't deny it is above the optimal range, however, aspirin keeps the levels in a range that I am comfortable with. Bodybuilding is hardly a healthy sport, therefore assuring perfect health is not an easy task, as the extremes are pushed. But, that is not to say that maintaining a reasonable health, and ultimately a level of health much better than the average person is an unattainable task.

Good point, though. That is the kind of information I am pushing for.

[Bio-Active]

Have you read the sticky "why it's important to run an AI on cycle"? This will probably answer most the questions

[Sgt. Hartman]

The fact is when injecting supraphysiological dosages of testosterone your estrogen will almost certainly be high out of the recommended range. I have never seen one ounce of credible info that shows that high out of ref range estrogen levels equate to more muscle tissue growth. If you've got something showing otherwise then please post it up but i don't think it exists because it's not true. Even if it were the case a couple pounds of tissue wouldn't be worth the adverse health issues that high E can cause like gyno prostrate issues etc.

And gauging the necessity of an ai based on side effects is fighting a losing battle. E sides like most things are completely individualistic, some people can develop gyno and hold massive water from E levels of 200 while others have no ill effects at all from E levels of 400. That doesn't mean it's healthy, just that the sides or health problems are not immediate.

Long term the risks of cardiovascular disease, prostrate health, etc just aren't worth it imo.

[rmbX66t1]

Have you read the sticky "why it's important to run an AI on cycle"? This will probably answer most the questions

Yes, yes I have read many (if not all) of the stickies here; Swifto, in my opinion, is a very intelligent man. I understand the negative effects of estrogen.

The fact is when injecting supraphysiological dosages of testosterone your estrogen will almost certainly be high out of the recommended range. I have never seen one ounce of credible info that shows that high out of ref range estrogen levels equate to more muscle tissue growth. If you've got something showing otherwise then please post it up but i don't think it exists because it's not true. Even if it were the case a couple pounds of tissue wouldn't be worth the adverse health issues that high E can cause like gyno prostrate issues etc.

And gauging the necessity of an ai based on side effects is fighting a losing battle. E sides like most things are completely individualistic, some people can develop gyno and hold massive water from E levels of 200 while others have no ill effects at all from E levels of 400. That doesn't mean it's healthy, just that the sides or health problems are not immediate.

Long term the risks of cardiovascular disease, prostrate health, etc just aren't worth it imo.

This is the direction I am interested in this thread going. One major concern is definitely the probability of prostate cancer, with the carcinogenic effects of estrogen. But at what range does this become a realistic health concern? If introducing an aromatase inhibitor, is the traditional range for estrogen where I want to keep it?

Individually, cardiovascular health is less of a concern. But, as the metrics jump drastically, in conjunction with those of testosterone there is an amplified feeling of concern I have as well. My initial thought of no AI was less of a reality, than "at what point do I want to dose it?" I've sat down with my doctor and discussed numbers, but I am not sure his range is synonymous with that I would like to field, as a bodybuilder.

[stpete]

Been thru this a thousand and a half times. you need to educate before you medicate. But it's up to you. High levels of test are nice but your chances of gyno are more likely. Do your research and please don't quote me anymore if you're going to come like that.

Do your research or don't. I simply told you from personal experience you should run it. Rest is up to you now.

[rmbX66t1]

Been thru this a thousand and a half times. you need to educate before you medicate. But it's up to you. High levels of test are nice but your chances of gyno are more likely. Do your research and please don't quote me anymore if you're going to come like that.

Do your research or don't. I simply told you from personal experience you should run it. Rest is up to you now.

I've done my research and given this forum was intended to provide individuals with experience the opportunity to discuss topics amongst one another, I thought it would only be logical to do so. I am at a state where I am attempting to determine at what ceiling I should be capping particular hormones, as to maximize benefits and reduce the serious risks.

Gyno is far less of a concern (as I have yet to ever experience anything that would remotely indicate it as a likely result) and it is more along the lines of shaving years off of my life, due to cardiovascular damage or excessive prostate growth and cancerous development. As I've outlined, obvious side effects are not something I have had to endure. This is a long term assessment in how I can continue to manage a prolonged bodybuilding career, without shortening my lifespan.

Another nice motto, btw.

[Lunk1]

You continue to answer your own question to a degree. You keep saying "obvious sides". The sides I would concern myself with would be more of the (less noticeable) sides like Sgt. mentioned. To answer your question, yes. You want to keep estrogen in the normal ranges on or off test. Individual responses are different to low or high end of that range. Some prefer to keep their estrogen on the high end of the normal spectrum and calim they feel better when doing so.

I would ask you to not question why an AI is neccessary but answer why one would NOT include it.

[Sgt. Hartman]

Better than one would think. I won't deny it is above the optimal range, however, aspirin keeps the levels in a range that I am comfortable with. Bodybuilding is hardly a healthy sport, therefore assuring perfect health is not an easy task, as the extremes are pushed. But, that is not to say that maintaining a reasonable health, and ultimately a level of health much better than the average person is an unattainable task.

Good point, though. That is the kind of information I am pushing for.

Cardiovascular health is less of a concern for you? It shouldn't be.

You'd have a different point of view regarding high bp on cycle if you'd read up on it.

The heart is a muscle like any other and is capable of hypertrophy. When bp is in check there is a risk of hypertrophy in athletes, especially those carrying large amounts of lbm. But when bp is high on cycle it obviously makes the heart pump harder which is basically resistance training to the heart and like any resistance training causes hypertrophy. Not to mention that the heart has androgen receptors and is capable or growth regardless.

Check into left ventricular hypertrophy in steroid users.

[kelkel]

You are extremely fortunate to never have to worry about gyno issues. What the guys above are basically saying is that the dangers of excess estrogen or more on the inside and unseen, as opposed to external such as gyno. You will easily double the risk of stroke and heart issues, not to mention your prostate as already spoken about.

Life Extension Foundation suggests you maintain your E2 between 20-30 on a sensitive assay. But that is subjective based on how you feel. Some do better libido wise a bit over that scale. Naturally prior to a contest you'll be dropping it down and drying out.

[stpete]

I've done my research and given this forum was intended to provide individuals with experience the opportunity to discuss topics amongst one another, I thought it would only be logical to do so. I am at a state where I am attempting to determine at what ceiling I should be capping particular hormones, as to maximize benefits and reduce the serious risks.

Gyno is far less of a concern (as I have yet to ever experience anything that would remotely indicate it as a likely result) and it is more along the lines of shaving years off of my life, due to cardiovascular damage or excessive prostate growth and cancerous development. As I've outlined, obvious side effects are not something I have had to endure. This is a long term assessment in how I can continue to manage a prolonged bodybuilding career, without shortening my lifespan.

Another nice motto, btw.

Yeah it is a nice motto from a good friend of mine and this board! I hope you weren't being a smart ass. Cause if so, me, and some other's that were friends w/T-Mos will be on you bad. I don't like your attitude and i wish this thread dead!

Do your homework!!

[rmbX66t1]

Cardiovascular health is less of a concern for you? It shouldn't be.

You'd have a different point of view regarding high bp on cycle if you'd read up on it.

The heart is a muscle like any other and is capable of hypertrophy. When bp is in check there is a risk of hypertrophy in athletes, especially those carrying large amounts of lbm. But when bp is high on cycle it obviously makes the heart pump harder which is basically resistance training to the heart and like any resistance training causes hypertrophy. Not to mention that the heart has androgen receptors and is capable or growth regardless.

Check into left ventricular hypertrophy in steroid users.

I understand the risks of high blood pressure, etc. Cardiovascular health is something that if kept in control (but still higher than suggested ranges), I can manage it to a degree that is a lesser concern. In no case has having excessively high blood pressure ever been an option for me.

Again, your pushing me in the right direction, however. Left ventricular hypertrophy in steroid users is not something I have read many accredited publications on. This is the information I'm looking for.

You are extremely fortunate to never have to worry about gyno issues. What the guys above are basically saying is that the dangers of excess estrogen or more on the inside and unseen, as opposed to external such as gyno. You will easily double the risk of stroke and heart issues, not to mention your prostate as already spoken about.

Life Extension Foundation suggests you maintain your E2 between 20-30 on a sensitive assay. But that is subjective based on how you feel. Some do better libido wise a bit over that scale. Naturally prior to a contest you'll be dropping it down and drying out.

Again, more of the information I was looking for. I've been intending to keep focus on maintaining e2 in the 60-70, once I get bloodwork back on this phase of the cycle (first four weeks). Any documentation on ranges and the direct translation to health? I'd like to know at what point "too much" is too much.

Yeah it is a nice motto from a good friend of mine and this board! I hope you weren't being a smart ass. Cause if so, me, and some other's that were friends w/T-Mos will be on you bad. I don't like your attitude and i wish this thread dead!

Do your homework!!

No sarcasm, lol, it was a good motto. I'm not sure what is wrong with my attitude. I've spent countless hours reading for years now. I came asking a question and wanted to understand the answer, not simply receive regurgitated "dont's" from people. A lesson isn't learned until it is understood. I haven't been impolite or unacceptable in any of my posts, have I?

I've done my homework and would like to see this thread grow, as opposed to die. There is some important information that can be shared.

[gymmonster]

You continue to answer your own question to a degree. You keep saying "obvious sides". The sides I would concern myself with would be more of the (less noticeable) sides like Sgt. mentioned. To answer your question, yes. You want to keep estrogen in the normal ranges on or off test. Individual responses are different to low or high end of that range. Some prefer to keep their estrogen on the high end of the normal spectrum and calim they feel better when doing so.

I would ask you to not question why an AI is neccessary but answer why one would NOT include it.

Nicely said
With all the research why wouldn't you include an AI?

[Sgt. Hartman]

Again, your pushing me in the right direction, however. Left ventricular hypertrophy in steroid users is not something I have read many accredited publications on. This is the information I'm looking for.

Anabolic steroids impair the exercise-induc... [Int J Sports Med. 2000] - PubMed - NCBI

Cardiac effects of anabolic steroids

http://eurheartj.oxfordjournals.org/.../1576.full.pdf

Androgen Receptors Mediate Hypertrophy in Cardiac Myocytes

[rmbX66t1]

Nicely said
With all the research why wouldn't you include an AI?

Exploration of ideologies, which includes going outside of the realm of what is traditional. Every substance we put in our bodies offers some additional effects (wanted and unwanted). The various combinations and compounding effects leaves endless options, why not begin exploring them?

Anabolic steroids impair the exercise-induc... [Int J Sports Med. 2000] - PubMed - NCBI

Cardiac effects of anabolic steroids

http://eurheartj.oxfordjournals.org/.../1576.full.pdf

Androgen Receptors Mediate Hypertrophy in Cardiac Myocytes

Thank you! Looks like I've got plenty of reading to do.

[kelkel]

Op, google Life Extension and Estrogen and you'll find a lot of interesting info. Remember as well if it's not a sensitive assay the ranges are set for women. If you use Lab Corp I can give you the correct codes to they don't screw it up.

Cardiovascular Actions of Estrogens in Men