HCG and high E2

[Beethoven]

Been on HCG for about two and a half weeks. The positives are my workouts are really good and making steady gains. Been in a calorie deficit but only dropped about four pounds but one waist size. I have noticed my nips a bit tender especially when I went swimming in the ocean. Can HCG raise e2 by itself or can my e2 just be a little higher due to bf? About 25%. Either way going to have BW done in a few weeks and I'll know by then but was curious.

[kelkel]

Yes, HCG can raise E2.

[dreadnok89]

Did you do any research on it? Or just decide to take it?

[phaedo]

How much are you taking? Are you taking it in conjunction with testosterone or any other medications?

[Mp859]

Hcg aromatizes rapidly

[bass]

Hcg aromatizes rapidly

much quicker than testosterone.

[tdoe11]

What is your dosing protocol?

[imom]

My E2 went so high when I started taking HCG that I had to quit.

[Beethoven]

Yes, Doc started me on the protocol without test. I am having BW done at the end of the month to see what the results are but I did feel that maybe E2 jumped a bit. The good news is my Doc is looking out for it and I'm sure he will address it. He did BW before starting me on it and will address it if needed. My protocol is 20 on the insulin syringe every three days. The bottle says 11,000 iu's. not sure how much that works out to. But I have felt good, bp went down from when I was on Cyp. Libido and nips are my indicators that maybe e2 is a bit high, otherwise I feel real good. My gym production has been so good that I feel like I was test.

[2Sox]

Yes, HCG can raise E2.

Kel,
It's my understanding that it's the intratesticular E2 levels that rise primarily - not so much the serum levels. Is this correct?

[2Sox]

Been on HCG for about two and a half weeks. The positives are my workouts are really good and making steady gains. Been in a calorie deficit but only dropped about four pounds but one waist size. I have noticed my nips a bit tender especially when I went swimming in the ocean. Can HCG raise e2 by itself or can my e2 just be a little higher due to bf? About 25%. Either way going to have BW done in a few weeks and I'll know by then but was curious.

Are you taking an aromatase inhibitor to help with E2?

[kelkel]

Kel,
It's my understanding that it's the intratesticular E2 levels that rise primarily - not so much the serum levels. Is this correct?

Correct.

[Beethoven]

Are you taking an aromatase inhibitor to help with E2?

Not at this time. Original BW was done prior to beginning and another round at the end of the month. Judging from those results we are going from there. I'm sure if an AI is needed he will provide, or modify the dose. The great news would be that HCG is getting my own body's production going where I wouldn't need to pin test except for maybe a blast every now and then.

[Beethoven]

Kel,
It's my understanding that it's the intratesticular E2 levels that rise primarily - not so much the serum levels. Is this correct?

What's the difference?

[kelkel]

An AI won't really control intratesticular E2.
HCG in and of itself will stimulate aromatization.

[Beethoven]

An AI won't really control intratesticular E2.
HCG in and of itself will stimulate aromatization.

Then cut down the dosage?

[w8liftr]

An AI won't really control intratesticular E2.
HCG in and of itself will stimulate aromatization.

Then what's the implication of higher intratesticular E2? Does the E2 generated in the testis get in the bloodstream and elevate overall E2 levels?
Is the notion here to take modest doses of hcg (not too high) so as to lower any chances of Estrogen conversion in the testicles?

[imom]

Kel,
It's my understanding that it's the intratesticular E2 levels that rise primarily - not so much the serum levels. Is this correct?

That makes no sense to me, as the difference in levels which you are measuring is in the serum so the point of origin is not significant.

[chickenstirfry]

I have heard and read that intratesticular e2 is NOT actually a result of aromatase... it is secreted by cells within the testes.

I have also heard and read that different A.I's penetrate different body tissues more effectively than others. Hence people find Adex not too effective at e2 caused by hCG, but find Aromasin much more reliable in this regard. And of course letro just obliterates estro from anywhere LOL.

It would be good to get some clarification on the whole topic though once and for all. Why is Adex not effective at controlling hCG-induced rise in e2 levels...

[imom]

Agreed. I suspect that my E2 might be coming from my testes as my body fat is pretty moderate and Anastrozole doesn't seem to have much impact on my E2.

[EverettCD]

Same here. Low T Mike, can you chime in and tell us what you do with your PT's that have elevated E2 from HCG.

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[chickenstirfry]

Agreed. I suspect that my E2 might be coming from my testes as my body fat is pretty moderate and Anastrozole doesn't seem to have much impact on my E2.

Same here, I'm pretty young and quite lean.. hCG has a much more estrogenic effect on me than T does.

The other thing about Adex is that it lowers all 3 estrogens in a much less favourable proportion than Aromasin, which is way more effective for e2 than Adex... maybe that could be a reason that Aromasin is more effective for hCG e2? Because with Adex you have to dose it to the point where e1 is being supressed heavily all over the body just to counter the e2... by which point you don't feel good, while Aromasin targets the extra e2 to the same level as Adex but without having to supress the other estrogens so heavily?

[LowT Mike]

Same here, I'm pretty young and quite lean.. hCG has a much more estrogenic effect on me than T does.

The other thing about Adex is that it lowers all 3 estrogens in a much less favourable proportion than Aromasin, which is way more effective for e2 than Adex... maybe that could be a reason that Aromasin is more effective for hCG e2? Because with Adex you have to dose it to the point where e1 is being supressed heavily all over the body just to counter the e2... by which point you don't feel good, while Aromasin targets the extra e2 to the same level as Adex but without having to supress the other estrogens so heavily?

Guys dont worry about the effects of HCG and its reactive properties in increasing aromatase. Not going to happen in any way shape or form at a concerning rate admin doses 500IU per day or less. Men suffering from hyperaromatase are ones that are going to these $$$ anti aging clinics where there protocols are in the dark ages and saying you need 5000IU every 3 days....cough cough cenegenics cough cough.

Dont stop your HCG because your E2 shot up. Your E2 is elevated ONLY because of your exogenous testosterone admin if your using 500IU of HCG or less per day.

E2 is easily control by the gold standard anastrozole. You can also use DIM and/or 50-75mg Zinc 2-3mg of copper---These work very well in decreasing the amount of anastrozole you need. I have my compounding pharmacist add Zinc to all my testosterone vials.

[EverettCD]

Your E2 is elevated ONLY because of your exogenous testosterone admin if your using 500IU of HCG or less per day.

Thank you for your input on this Mike.

I am confused about your statement above, I don't totally understand what you're saying. I thought you said prior that HCG administered at 500iu's or less per day (24 hour period I'm ASSuming) is "safe" & will not raise E2?

Thanks again for your input.

Sent from my iPhone that was manufactured in a sweat shop in China

[2Sox]

Guys dont worry about the effects of HCG and its reactive properties in increasing aromatase. Not going to happen in any way shape or form at a concerning rate admin doses 500IU per day or less. Men suffering from hyperaromatase are ones that are going to these $$$ anti aging clinics where there protocols are in the dark ages and saying you need 5000IU every 3 days....cough cough cenegenics cough cough.

Dont stop your HCG because your E2 shot up. Your E2 is elevated ONLY because of your exogenous testosterone admin if your using 500IU of HCG or less per day.

E2 is easily control by the gold standard anastrozole. You can also use DIM and/or 50-75mg Zinc 2-3mg of copper---These work very well in decreasing the amount of anastrozole you need. I have my compounding pharmacist add Zinc to all my testosterone vials.

Thanks, Mike. This is confirmation that I have been doing the correct thing. I never felt any sort of E2 spike from hCG - at 250iu EOD. My spike came from exogenous T. Since I've been pinning 40mg test cyp SQ, EOD, I have only needed .25mg Adex every 5 days or so. I feel this is good for me. I start feeling like Lurch and I know it's time. ;-)

I take 50mg zinc/day but I never knew that copper helps as an ai. Interesting

[LowT Mike]

HCG dosent aromaste into E2 only Testosterone. Dont get your enzematic pathways confused. HCG can raise E2 in large bolus doses on the testicular aromatase level. Well yeah... Its a sterile polypetide molecule durived from the urine of pregant females. What is higher in estrogen than pregnant female urine. I cant think of anything more potent with estrogen than that. haha.

[imom]

Dont stop your HCG because your E2 shot up. Your E2 is elevated ONLY because of your exogenous testosterone admin if your using 500IU of HCG or less per day.

My E2 was around 130 when I was on HCG. When I dropped the HCG and made no other change, my E2 fell to 40.

[LowT Mike]

How much HCG were you doing? Thats quite the drop by just removing HCG. Something else is going on.

[LowT Mike]

Thank you for your input on this Mike.

I am confused about your statement above, I don't totally understand what you're saying. I thought you said prior that HCG administered at 500iu's or less per day (24 hour period I'm ASSuming) is "safe" & will not raise E2?

Thanks again for your input.



Sent from my iPhone that was manufactured in a sweat shop in China

Assuming you are doing appropriate amounts of HCG (500IU or less) E2 will generally only elevate because of the T use.

[imom]

How much HCG were you doing?

250 IU, twice a week

[LowT Mike]

Something else was going on. aromatase stabilized (this generally happens to men after a period while on TRT they have the need for less AI when all the hormones are balanced and body % lowers) better metabolization of AI, bad batch of HCG, Incorrect HCG dosing and recon, removal of estrogenic exposure-- petrochemicals, BPA from plastics, soy products, ect. I am only speculating, but these are some avenues to look at.

[chickenstirfry]

Guys dont worry about the effects of HCG and its reactive properties in increasing aromatase. Not going to happen in any way shape or form at a concerning rate admin doses 500IU per day or less. Men suffering from hyperaromatase are ones that are going to these $$$ anti aging clinics where there protocols are in the dark ages and saying you need 5000IU every 3 days....cough cough cenegenics cough cough.

Dont stop your HCG because your E2 shot up. Your E2 is elevated ONLY because of your exogenous testosterone admin if your using 500IU of HCG or less per day.

E2 is easily control by the gold standard anastrozole. You can also use DIM and/or 50-75mg Zinc 2-3mg of copper---These work very well in decreasing the amount of anastrozole you need. I have my compounding pharmacist add Zinc to all my testosterone vials.

This is good info thanks Mike.

[EverettCD]

Assuming you are doing appropriate amounts of HCG (500IU or less) E2 will generally only elevate because of the T use.

Thanks for the clarification. I'm picking up what you're putting down.

Sent from my iPhone that was manufactured in a sweat shop in China

[TMan96]

Just wondering what the DIM dosing would be Daily?

[phaedo]

How significant is the the AI properties of Zinc and DIM? Do they improve the anti-aromatase effects of Anastrozle, allowing for a smaller, more effective dosing? Or do they ameliorate high estrogen through their own seperate means?

[LowT Mike]

How significant is the the AI properties of Zinc and DIM? Do they improve the anti-aromatase effects of Anastrozle, allowing for a smaller, more effective dosing? Or do they ameliorate high estrogen through their own seperate means?

Phytonutrition encompasses the dietary use of micronutrients found in plants. Adequate intake of specific phytochemicals can increase adaptive responses regulating hormone metabolism and cell behavior. Cruciferous vegetables, such as cabbage, cauliflower, and broccoli, posses unique phytochemical constituents able to modify the metabolism of estrogen. The most active of these phytochemicals with regard to estrogen is the dietary indole, diindolylmethane (DIM) Supplemental use of diindolylmethane provides the basis for nutritional support to enhance the beneficial action and safety of estrogen. An optimal "estrogen balance" has implications for cancer prevention and successful aging in both women and men. Dosage is higher for men than woman for E2 balance. 300-400mg.

The significance of DIM and Zinc/Copper is not to improve the AI action of anastrozole but to modify the actual metabolism of estrogen so it works independantly as an AI. Would I give DIM and Zinc soley to a patient who has a high E2 and is a hyperaromatase individual...NO. But you can generally titrate his anastrozole dosage in half with the supplementation of DIM and Zinc/Copper and or use soley on a patient who only mildy aromatases. Remember the Aromatase enzyme lives in adipose tissue. The higher BF % the more you will generally aromatase. if you are a man that only requires .5 anstrozole or less per week. Talk to your doctor and bring up the use of DIM Zinc/Copper. It might be all you need.

[2Sox]

Phytonutrition encompasses the dietary use of micronutrients found in plants. Adequate intake of specific phytochemicals can increase adaptive responses regulating hormone metabolism and cell behavior. Cruciferous vegetables, such as cabbage, cauliflower, and broccoli, posses unique phytochemical constituents able to modify the metabolism of estrogen. The most active of these phytochemicals with regard to estrogen is the dietary indole, diindolylmethane (DIM) Supplemental use of diindolylmethane provides the basis for nutritional support to enhance the beneficial action and safety of estrogen. An optimal "estrogen balance" has implications for cancer prevention and successful aging in both women and men. Dosage is higher for men than woman for E2 balance. 300-400mg.

The significance of DIM and Zinc/Copper is not to improve the AI action of anastrozole but to modify the actual metabolism of estrogen so it works independantly as an AI. Would I give DIM and Zinc soley to a patient who has a high E2 and is a hyperaromatase individual...NO. But you can generally titrate his anastrozole dosage in half with the supplementation of DIM and Zinc/Copper and or use soley on a patient who only mildy aromatases. Remember the Aromatase enzyme lives in adipose tissue. The higher BF % the more you will generally aromatase. if you are a man that only requires .5 anstrozole or less per week. Talk to your doctor and bring up the use of DIM Zinc/Copper. It might be all you need.

Mike,

Thanks for this. I've been doing a little reading about copper and it seems one has to be very careful about dosing due to copper toxicity. Why are you confident that 2-3 mg/day is the way to go?

I already take 50mg zinc/day but I'm reluctant to take copper until I know more.

[tectime]

Hey 2sox my doc told me the same! 2mgs/ day with 50 mgs zinc!

[2Sox]

Hey 2sox my doc told me the same! 2mgs/ day with 50 mgs zinc!

Cool. How's it working for you?

[LowT Mike]

2mg is fine. toxicity is rare, but can occur at 10mg per day. The US RDA is 1mg for adults. So its a far cry to say 2mg is too much.