Is prescription testosterone causing heart attacks,strokes & premature death? (Pic)

[The Deadlifting Dog]

I might get flamed for what I am going to write but....

There are risks associated with running testosterone levels too high.
If one's blood consistently gets too thick, one should lower their dose.
If one needs an AI because E2 gets above normal range, one should lower their dose and/or lose bodyfat.

Now I also want to note that there are risks with having low testosterone levels.

The idea is to get into a healthy or optimal level.
More is not necessarily better.

[kelkel]

I might get flamed for what I am going to write but....

There are risks associated with running testosterone levels too high.
If one's blood consistently gets too thick, one should lower their dose.
If one needs an AI because E2 gets above normal range, one should lower their dose and/or lose bodyfat.

Now I also want to note that there are risks with having low testosterone levels.

The idea is to get into a healthy or optimal level.
More is not necessarily better.

Could not have said it better. Far more risks with low testosterone.
The hairdresser needs to step away from the salon and breath some fresh air. It's effecting her.

[slates]

I believe so. After all, androgens are taxing on the body. If a report came out saying that trenbolone increased the odds of having a heart attack, no one would be surprised. Why is it hard to imagine that a less potent but still powerful androgen like testosterone does the same?

[kelkel]

I believe so. After all, androgens are taxing on the body. If a report came out saying that trenbolone increased the odds of having a heart attack, no one would be surprised. Why is it hard to imagine that a less potent but still powerful androgen like testosterone does the same?

Tren and test are two completely different animals. Here, we're talking about normal physiologic levels of testosterone. If you want taxing on the body. Live without testosterone.

This is a great read for anyone in the beginning of TRT. Abraham Morgantaler's "Testosterone For Life."

http://www.lef.org/Vitamins-Suppleme...-For-Life.html

Or, "Testosterone, A Man's Guide" by Nelson Vergel. Great read.

http://www.amazon.com/Testosterone-M.../dp/B003JBI22A

[Metalject]

I believe so. After all, androgens are taxing on the body. If a report came out saying that trenbolone increased the odds of having a heart attack, no one would be surprised. Why is it hard to imagine that a less potent but still powerful androgen like testosterone does the same?

Here's a good way to look at it. If you eat lots of white fish every day, that's a healthy diet. If you eat lots of deep fried white fish every day, that's a very unhealthy diet. But how can that be? Both are food, both come from the same fish, so how can that be? Obviously "how can that be" is not a serious question....we can all easily understand the difference in eating white fish and deep fried white fish. But testosterone and and trenbolone, while both androgens are not equal any more than the two fishes.

Note: If you ate 48lbs of white fish every day, baked with nothing on it, that would be bad for you....same as taking butt loads of testosterone every day would be bad for you.

[GSXRvi6]

I believe so. After all, androgens are taxing on the body. If a report came out saying that trenbolone increased the odds of having a heart attack, no one would be surprised. Why is it hard to imagine that a less potent but still powerful androgen like testosterone does the same?

This is what I was trying to get at, if your TRT target is to be normal, there should only be benefits. If your pushing it higher because, well 200/wk just makes me feel that much better even though 100/wk causes me to be symptom free so I'll just run 200/wk, imo your now outside the bounds of "TRT" and your getting into low dose long running cycles, which is widely known to have undesirable side effects.

My body is built to operate with certain levels of androgens, if I'm keeping within those ranges why would it be stressful on my body?

It's just like anything else, you abuse tylenol and it will mess you up.

[slates]

This is what I was trying to get at, if your TRT target is to be normal, there should only be benefits. If your pushing it higher because, well 200/wk just makes me feel that much better even though 100/wk causes me to be symptom free so I'll just run 200/wk, imo your now outside the bounds of "TRT" and your getting into low dose long running cycles, which is widely known to have undesirable side effects.

My body is built to operate with certain levels of androgens, if I'm keeping within those ranges why would it be stressful on my body?

It's just like anything else, you abuse tylenol and it will mess you up.

I think the issue is that the decline in testosterone levels with age is normal and healthy. An older man's body can't handle a testosterone level of 800 ng/dl like a young man's can. However, a lot of doctors are bringing 60-year-old men up to this level or even higher! Now if a man has low testosterone for his age, that could be an issue and he'd probably benefit from having it brought up to normal. However, if his levels are low compared to a young man, that's the way it's supposed to be.

[kelkel]

I think the issue is that the decline in testosterone levels with age is normal and healthy. An older man's body can't handle a testosterone level of 800 ng/dl like a young man's can. However, a lot of doctors are bringing 60-year-old men up to this level or even higher! Now if a man has low testosterone for his age, that could be an issue and he'd probably benefit from having it brought up to normal. However, if his levels are low compared to a young man, that's the way it's supposed to be.

I assume this is just your opinion or do you have studies to back this up? The way it's supposed to be? How do you know that? It's called modern medicine. Do you refuse all medicines if you become ill? Is this a religious thing? Our parents generation didn't have the advantage that we do today and everyone here (except you) seem to be thrilled with the ability to restore youthful test levels.

So we assume you will not be on testosterone replacement? Ever?

[BallSak]

I think the issue is that the decline in testosterone levels with age is normal and healthy. An older man's body can't handle a testosterone level of 800 ng/dl like a young man's can. However, a lot of doctors are bringing 60-year-old men up to this level or even higher! Now if a man has low testosterone for his age, that could be an issue and he'd probably benefit from having it brought up to normal. However, if his levels are low compared to a young man, that's the way it's supposed to be.

Who is to say what your testosterone should be at any given age? I would put money on the 60 yr old guy with 800 T level to outlive all of his friends with naturally declining T, given he takes care of his health responsibly.

[GSXRvi6]

I think the issue is that the decline in testosterone levels with age is normal and healthy. An older man's body can't handle a testosterone level of 800 ng/dl like a young man's can. However, a lot of doctors are bringing 60-year-old men up to this level or even higher! Now if a man has low testosterone for his age, that could be an issue and he'd probably benefit from having it brought up to normal. However, if his levels are low compared to a young man, that's the way it's supposed to be.

His levels would be lower than a younger mans but not really "low". There is a post somewhere on this forum with a chart and test of men's test levels at various ages. Just because you get old doesn't mean your test slams down to the bottom, lowering due to age isn't quite the same as tanking for other reasons.

I could potentially see issues where you have an 80 year old, out of shape, doc puts him on TRT, he starts feeling younger and gets after it, but does not have the cardiovascular health to keep up with "how young he feels". Combine that with some RBC increase and you've got a mix for a heart attack. I say this completely speaking out of my ass of course, assumption on my part.

But if his health is good, and 800 puts his body at homeostasis, I can't fathom why there would be issues. If it's causing an RBC increase, negative impact on lipids etc, then clearly the risk is going up and 800 is not where he needs to be to achieve homeostasis

My body can't tolerate levels of 900, it's too much, drives my iron and rbc through the roof. I'm much better at ~700. Now I FEEL a whole lot better when I'm at say ohhhhh 3,000 :-) but I am SYMPTOM FREE at 700, any higher is increasing my risk, so I have no desire to run higher than 700 for TRT, the increased risk is not worth it for me.

Some men may find they need 900, some 600. When doc's just throw a dart and say "I want you at 1000" it smells like trouble to me. Minimum amount of drug required to be symptom free = less risk of side effects.

If that old man walked into a TRT clinic and the doc said ok you have low T we are shooting for 800, I would consider that reckless, if the old man was symptom free at 500, why take on the additional risk. Or maybe he needs 1000?

[lovbyts]

I think the issue is that the decline in testosterone levels with age is normal and healthy. An older man's body can't handle a testosterone level of 800 ng/dl like a young man's can. However, a lot of doctors are bringing 60-year-old men up to this level or even higher! Now if a man has low testosterone for his age, that could be an issue and he'd probably benefit from having it brought up to normal. However, if his levels are low compared to a young man, that's the way it's supposed to be.

Seriously? That is pretty narrow minding thinking IMO. That's like saying it's normal with age for your vision to fail so you should not get glasses to correct it. OSTEOPOROSIS is normal with age so you should not take Vid D or Calcium to prevent it. Should I go on?

You may be OK with these age related issues but some of us prefer quality of life.

This is part of what I consider quality of life.

Before TRT


After TRT.

[NEFLRick]

Also, from what I'm learning, there are a LOT of docs out there who know very little about test and how to administer a proper TRT program. I wonder how many of the problems come from that.

For example, it seems most docs don't watch hematocrit levels--my own doc included. If I hadn't done the research myself--something most people DON'T do--I wouldn't know about it and would run the risk of all of the bad things associated with high levels.

You read countless threads from people who's doc won't prescribe HCG because it's that diet fad thing.

How many don't address estrogen levels?

The list goes on and on. I'm guessing this may be the bigger problem, not the actual treatment.

[BallSak]

Seriously? That is pretty narrow minding thinking IMO. That's like saying it's normal with age for your vision to fail so you should not get glasses to correct it. OSTEOPOROSIS is normal with age so you should not take Vid D or Calcium to prevent it. Should I go on?

You may be OK with these age related issues but some of us prefer quality of life.

This is part of what I consider quality of life.

Before TRT


After TRT.

Best before and after pics ever!

[Chicagotarsier]

There are hypogonadal individuals that take 200+ mg a week testosterone and result in <900 Ttotal test reading. EVERYONE is different. How would you be outside the bounds of Trt to be in normal range (normal is just what they call it). My Androil dose of 6 pills a day (equiv of 170 or so testosterone a week) put me at mid to low 500. Felt better but wow 175 test prop was like turning the light on in the room.

So lets get all "medical" for a moment.

If you take over 80 a week testosterone you are going to be shut down in a few months. 200 and you are shut down in a few weeks. In all reality you are living on artificial testosterone period if you are on TrT. There are a billion factors on how your body will process testosterone. A 175 dose for me might put me at 800. A 175 dose for you might put you at 1250. There are recorded natural testosterone levels in the 95th percentile of over 1200 and some up to 1600. It is a case by case basis. It is completely dependent on the person. If this was the same for all it would be like Lipitor....it is not. X does not work for everyone.

This is what I was trying to get at, if your TRT target is to be normal, there should only be benefits. If your pushing it higher because, well 200/wk just makes me feel that much better even though 100/wk causes me to be symptom free so I'll just run 200/wk, imo your now outside the bounds of "TRT" and your getting into low dose long running cycles, which is widely known to have undesirable side effects.

My body is built to operate with certain levels of androgens, if I'm keeping within those ranges why would it be stressful on my body?

It's just like anything else, you abuse tylenol and it will mess you up.

[BallSak]

I believe so. After all, androgens are taxing on the body. If a report came out saying that trenbolone increased the odds of having a heart attack, no one would be surprised. Why is it hard to imagine that a less potent but still powerful androgen like testosterone does the same?

Completely inaccurate and irrelevant.

[BallSak]

I might get flamed for what I am going to write but....

There are risks associated with running testosterone levels too high.
If one's blood consistently gets too thick, one should lower their dose.
If one needs an AI because E2 gets above normal range, one should lower their dose and/or lose bodyfat.

Now I also want to note that there are risks with having low testosterone levels.

The idea is to get into a healthy or optimal level.
More is not necessarily better.

Agree with TDD. Testosterone levels are an individualistic thing. We all have a different optimal level of T. Some guys need to be at 600, some at 1100. More is not better, less is not better, better is better.