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Thread: PSMF diet before cycle.

  1. #1

    PSMF diet before cycle.

    I am very interested in the idea of priming before a cycle, and the idea of post-comp rebound cycles where the very anabolic state the body is in after a period of restricted calories is taken advantage of to spur new muscle growth.

    I have no plan to compete any time soon and with that in mind I came across the PSMF diet - (protein sparing modified fast) specifically Lyle Mcdonalds version of it. It basically consists of around 800 calories a day mostly coming from protein and unlimited almost-zero calorie vegetables.In 2 weeks can in losses of 4-7 lbs of fat and 10-20 pounds of weight alot of which is water.

    I want to combine this with a cycle of short ester AAS beginning after the 2 weeks. Something like

    Tren ace 100mg EOD
    Test prop 50mg EOD
    Anavar 60mg EOD

    I feel like this would create an awesome environment for growth. Thoughts?

  2. #2
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    Quote Originally Posted by Battleplan View Post
    I am very interested in the idea of priming before a cycle, and the idea of post-comp rebound cycles where the very anabolic state the body is in after a period of restricted calories is taken advantage of to spur new muscle growth.

    I have no plan to compete any time soon and with that in mind I came across the PSMF diet - (protein sparing modified fast) specifically Lyle Mcdonalds version of it. It basically consists of around 800 calories a day mostly coming from protein and unlimited almost-zero calorie vegetables.In 2 weeks can in losses of 4-7 lbs of fat and 10-20 pounds of weight alot of which is water.

    I want to combine this with a cycle of short ester AAS beginning after the 2 weeks. Something like

    Tren ace 100mg EOD
    Test prop 50mg EOD
    Anavar 60mg EOD

    I feel like this would create an awesome environment for growth. Thoughts?
    Im sure your aware stats are paramount when it comes to advice for individuals !!

  3. #3
    Quote Originally Posted by itsjayman02 View Post
    Im sure your aware stats are paramount when it comes to advice for individuals !!
    I am 27, 6'0 and around 210 lbs at 11-12% Bf. This will be my third cycle. Also that cycle will include caber, Adex and NAC with a normal PCT.

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    Why caber? Hx of Hyperprolactinemia on tren?

  5. #5
    Quote Originally Posted by Battleplan View Post
    I am very interested in the idea of priming before a cycle, and the idea of post-comp rebound cycles where the very anabolic state the body is in after a period of restricted calories is taken advantage of to spur new muscle growth.

    I have no plan to compete any time soon and with that in mind I came across the PSMF diet - (protein sparing modified fast) specifically Lyle Mcdonalds version of it. It basically consists of around 800 calories a day mostly coming from protein and unlimited almost-zero calorie vegetables.In 2 weeks can in losses of 4-7 lbs of fat and 10-20 pounds of weight alot of which is water.

    I want to combine this with a cycle of short ester AAS beginning after the 2 weeks. Something like

    Tren ace 100mg EOD
    Test prop 50mg EOD
    Anavar 60mg EOD

    I feel like this would create an awesome environment for growth. Thoughts?
    Lyle recommends setting protein intake and this calories based on Leanne's and body weight and activity not just 800cals. Seeing as you'd be on such a drastic calorie restriction I don't think your notice much growth if at all. It wouldn't be a bad way to drop some fat before running a bulk cycle.
    Last edited by Docd187123; 03-27-2014 at 03:33 PM.

  6. #6
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    Maybe on your last two weeks of the prime. But I would consider priming for an additional 2-4 weeks prior to the 800 calorie a day plan. Honestly the last 5-7 days before your cycle you could cut calories even lower. But prior to those two weeks I would do 2-4 weeks of carb cycling, or some form of regular fasting. You could really drop your body fat down significantly, and then be well primed. I suggest this considering you are 11-12% bf, and you will have a better cycle and have more room for growth at even lower body fat.

  7. #7
    I disagree with some of the above advice. You can create an extremly anabolic state without dropping down to 800 cal aday. Think about it. Your trying to re-create a a bodybuilders contest prep. Have you ever heard of of them eating 800 cals aday for 2weeks? Nope they drop weight slowly over they length of there prep. If i dropped my calories to low for to long. I would be worried some of the muscle i gained on cycle woud just be replacing the muscle i lost in my prime.

  8. #8
    Quote Originally Posted by michael30 View Post
    I disagree with some of the above advice. You can create an extremly anabolic state without dropping down to 800 cal aday. Think about it. Your trying to re-create a a bodybuilders contest prep. Have you ever heard of of them eating 800 cals aday for 2weeks? Nope they drop weight slowly over they length of there prep. If i dropped my calories to low for to long. I would be worried some of the muscle i gained on cycle woud just be replacing the muscle i lost in my prime.
    Bodybuilders aren't exactly above reproach and often times what they say and what they do are very different things. You lose lbm on any cut it's not specific to an aggressive cut. The tradeoff being you're usually cutting for significantly less time while doing a PSMF-type diet.

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    I do not have any experience or knowledge about extremely low calorie deficits as I am afraid to go near them. I would be very interested in reading a log if you decide to do it though.

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    Quote Originally Posted by michael30 View Post
    I disagree with some of the above advice. You can create an extremly anabolic state without dropping down to 800 cal aday. Think about it. Your trying to re-create a a bodybuilders contest prep. Have you ever heard of of them eating 800 cals aday for 2weeks? Nope they drop weight slowly over they length of there prep. If i dropped my calories to low for to long. I would be worried some of the muscle i gained on cycle woud just be replacing the muscle i lost in my prime.
    two weeks of 800 cal, it would be very very minimal as far as muscle loss would go. Obviously you will be smaller and weaker, but a majority of this is water weight. I mean do some math on this, and you see it won't be possible to lose that much muscle at 800 calories a day for two weeks. The effects from the prime usually make up for it when you go on cycle anyways. I recently primed before going into a cutting phase trt dose test with 20mg of win a day, prime was low enough test to be under 500 total t. I lost over 30 lbs in 4 weeks, checked measurements every week, within two weeks of my cutting diet after, my muscle mass was already greater than prior to the prime, yet I was still over 23 lbs lighter. Results would be much greater if I was doing a bulk diet, but I am still severely calorie restricted, with enough refeeds to build back the muscle I lost.

    Just an example, but we sometimes need to let go a little to gain. There are lots of philosophies and methods of training on this.

  11. #11
    Quote Originally Posted by michael30 View Post
    I disagree with some of the above advice. You can create an extremly anabolic state without dropping down to 800 cal aday. Think about it. Your trying to re-create a a bodybuilders contest prep. Have you ever heard of of them eating 800 cals aday for 2weeks? Nope they drop weight slowly over they length of there prep. If i dropped my calories to low for to long. I would be worried some of the muscle i gained on cycle woud just be replacing the muscle i lost in my prime.
    I think the muscle lost in 2 weeks will be minimal, and be more than compensated for with the new growth on cycle.

  12. #12
    Quote Originally Posted by SEOINAGE View Post
    two weeks of 800 cal, it would be very very minimal as far as muscle loss would go. Obviously you will be smaller and weaker, but a majority of this is water weight. I mean do some math on this, and you see it won't be possible to lose that much muscle at 800 calories a day for two weeks. The effects from the prime usually make up for it when you go on cycle anyways. I recently primed before going into a cutting phase trt dose test with 20mg of win a day, prime was low enough test to be under 500 total t. I lost over 30 lbs in 4 weeks, checked measurements every week, within two weeks of my cutting diet after, my muscle mass was already greater than prior to the prime, yet I was still over 23 lbs lighter. Results would be much greater if I was doing a bulk diet, but I am still severely calorie restricted, with enough refeeds to build back the muscle I lost.

    Just an example, but we sometimes need to let go a little to gain. There are lots of philosophies and methods of training on this.

    I personally feel its pointless to drop that low in calories as the goal of achieving a prime can be done without going to 800 calories. So why do it?

  13. #13
    Quote Originally Posted by Battleplan View Post
    I think the muscle lost in 2 weeks will be minimal, and be more than compensated for with the new growth on cycle.
    Again you are missing the point!! Theres no reason to drop to 800cal an even lose minimal muscle. Because a proper prime can be achieved without doing so. Please go read marcus 300 priming post.

  14. #14
    Quote Originally Posted by Docd187123 View Post
    Bodybuilders aren't exactly above reproach and often times what they say and what they do are very different things. You lose lbm on any cut it's not specific to an aggressive cut. The tradeoff being you're usually cutting for significantly less time while doing a PSMF-type diet.

    Yes but the point is your opening yourself up to muscle loss the doesnt even need to occur. As we both know a prime can be properly done without dropping to 800 cals aday.

  15. #15
    Quote Originally Posted by michael30 View Post
    Again you are missing the point!! Theres no reason to drop to 800cal an even lose minimal muscle. Because a proper prime can be achieved without doing so. Please go read marcus 300 priming post.

    I am merely suggesting a different approach. One that I am going to TRY OUT FOR MYSELF, There is more to bodybuilding than just reading other peoples opinions, you should try and test things on yourself because everybody will react differently.

    Marcus300's post is good, however is just suggests either a carb cycling plan or a slow reduction in carbs leading up to a cycle. I am suggesting a different approach.

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    First firgure out your bmr and tdee and go from there
    U have to remember bro, I am taking it your natty right now ( not cycling), so when u drop that amount of cals your fear is going to be a catabolic state, which muscle loss occurs bro in that extreme deficit, u can get away with it if u are on a blast or criise but doing it naturally u are going to loose some muscle while u loose that extreme amount of body fat in 2 weeks time bro, u gotta remember how much gear that lyle guys is doing when he is in that much of a caloric deficit, being at 12% bf u are more prone to loosing your mass if you dont diet properly, goodluck man
    I wouod sugget hop on some test, u said u got test prop, run that in with your diet plan u wanna try ( lyle mcdonalds approach), then add tren in later on durig the cycle, atleast with adding test prop u will be in an anabolic state not worrying about going catabolic
    Last edited by Matt007; 03-27-2014 at 05:55 AM.

  17. #17
    Quote Originally Posted by Matt007 View Post
    First firgure out your bmr and tdee and go from there
    U have to remember bro, I am taking it your natty right now ( not cycling), so when u drop that amount of cals your fear is going to be a catabolic state, which muscle loss occurs bro in that extreme deficit, u can get away with it if u are on a blast or criise but doing it naturally u are going to loose some muscle while u loose that extreme amount of body fat in 2 weeks time bro, u gotta remember how much gear that lyle guys is doing when he is in that much of a caloric deficit, being at 12% bf u are more prone to loosing your mass if you dont diet properly, goodluck man
    I wouod sugget hop on some test, u said u got test prop, run that in with your diet plan u wanna try ( lyle mcdonalds approach), then add tren in later on durig the cycle, atleast with adding test prop u will be in an anabolic state not worrying about going catabolic

    No I am not natty. You completely missed the point of what I am suggesting. You also seem to have a very poor grasp of english.

  18. #18
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    Also his diet being 800 cals or so would most likely be high protein and fibrous carbs bro

  19. #19
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    All I can say is give it a try and see how u far out

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    Quote Originally Posted by Battleplan View Post
    I am merely suggesting a different approach. One that I am going to TRY OUT FOR MYSELF, There is more to bodybuilding than just reading other peoples opinions, you should try and test things on yourself because everybody will react differently.

    Marcus300's post is good, however is just suggests either a carb cycling plan or a slow reduction in carbs leading up to a cycle. I am suggesting a different approach.
    I have nothing again'st Marcus's prime either, but my prime was quite different. There are plenty of other ways to do this, and quite possibly some that may be more effective.

    Also during a prime I wouldn't add in compounds like Matt suggested, if anything reduce doses of test, and get rid of everything else. You want fresh receptors to go along with your prime, you'll respond better to AAS after.

  21. #21
    Quote Originally Posted by michael30 View Post
    Yes but the point is your opening yourself up to muscle loss the doesnt even need to occur. As we both know a prime can be properly done without dropping to 800 cals aday.
    The body is always going through muscle loss and gain. Trying to micromanage every minute second of protein synthesis vs proteolysis is not needed. And once again, you lose LBM on EVERY cut...whether calories are this low or not.

    Quote Originally Posted by SEOINAGE View Post
    I have nothing again'st Marcus's prime either, but my prime was quite different. There are plenty of other ways to do this, and quite possibly some that may be more effective.

    Also during a prime I wouldn't add in compounds like Matt suggested, if anything reduce doses of test, and get rid of everything else. You want fresh receptors to go along with your prime, you'll respond better to AAS after.
    Why would you respond better to AAS after?

  22. #22
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    Quote Originally Posted by Docd187123 View Post
    The body is always going through muscle loss and gain. Trying to micromanage every minute second of protein synthesis vs proteolysis is not needed. And once again, you lose LBM on EVERY cut...whether calories are this low or not.



    Why would you respond better to AAS after?
    I'm talking about the same reason you don't run endless cycles. Or extended cycles. Keep your AAS out of your prime. I don't see how a lot of AAS during a prime are going to help you after your prime. Same reason why you have Ronnie Rowlands methods here on the forum.

  23. #23
    Quote Originally Posted by SEOINAGE View Post
    I'm talking about the same reason you don't run endless cycles. Or extended cycles. Keep your AAS out of your prime. I don't see how a lot of AAS during a prime are going to help you after your prime. Same reason why you have Ronnie Rowlands methods here on the forum.
    I thought the reason you don't run endless or extended cycles is bc supraphysiological levels aren't healthy. By coming off you allow the body a chance to return to homeostasis and avoid potential long term health complications. Also, the longer the suppression the harder potential recovery becomes. I've not seen evidence that androgen receptors get fresh or respond better. I'm not recommending running a bunch of compounds during a prime such as this I just don't see how the receptors would benefit either.

  24. #24
    Quote Originally Posted by Docd187123 View Post
    The body is always going through muscle loss and gain. Trying to micromanage every minute second of protein synthesis vs proteolysis is not needed. And once again, you lose LBM on EVERY cut...whether calories are this low or not.



    Why would you respond better to AAS after?

    Just curious are you a real doctor? Also i think your last post was pretty misleading. First off yes the body drops an gains muscle over time. But it does not do so at the rate your implying! Now im open to learn new things. So could you please explain to me the added benifits of dropping your cals to 800 aday during a prime? Compared to lets say a 25-50% reduction? Im curious to see your response?

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    Quote Originally Posted by michael30 View Post
    Just curious are you a real doctor? Also i think your last post was pretty misleading. First off yes the body drops an gains muscle over time. But it does not do so at the rate your implying! Now im open to learn new things. So could you please explain to me the added benifits of dropping your cals to 800 aday during a prime? Compared to lets say a 25-50% reduction? Im curious to see your response?
    See below. LOL - I wasn't even close
    Last edited by slfmade; 03-27-2014 at 02:36 PM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Docd187123 View Post
    I thought the reason you don't run endless or extended cycles is bc supraphysiological levels aren't healthy. By coming off you allow the body a chance to return to homeostasis and avoid potential long term health complications. Also, the longer the suppression the harder potential recovery becomes. I've not seen evidence that androgen receptors get fresh or respond better. I'm not recommending running a bunch of compounds during a prime such as this I just don't see how the receptors would benefit either.
    I haven't researched this much if any, but at some point don't we reach of point of diminishing returns the longer we run cycles?

  27. #27
    Quote Originally Posted by michael30 View Post
    Just curious are you a real doctor? Also i think your last post was pretty misleading. First off yes the body drops an gains muscle over time. But it does not do so at the rate your implying! Now im open to learn new things. So could you please explain to me the added benifits of dropping your cals to 800 aday during a prime? Compared to lets say a 25-50% reduction? Im curious to see your response?
    No I'm am not a doctor.

    I don't see where it was misleading, the body at all times is undergoing muscle gain and loss. The NET difference or AUC is whether we actually gain more muscle or not.

    I think you're missing the point. Nowhere did I say it necessarily had any added benefits over a more moderate deficit but that would depend on the context of the situation. Your sole focus of avoiding this type of diet (PSMF) is bc of muscle loss. I am telling you EVERY diet will make you lose LBM. That is unavoidable. But the amount of actual muscle loss isn't solely dependent upon caloric intake, in fact caloric intake isn't even the number one factor for muscle loss.

    To understand why priming MAY benefit you you have to understand the body's ability to adapt and respond to a stressor. This is how weight training works. Provide an adequate stressor (lifting weights), get sufficient rest (recovery), and the body will adapt to the stress so once exposed in the future to the same stress it responds easier. Same principles can apply to dieting and why diets such as IF and Warrior Diet have had tremendous success (when following other basic nutrition principles). The catabolic response to fasting or periods of low caloric intake is matched and sometimes superseded by the body's compensatory effect. Here's one study showing this effect:

    Increased p70s6k phosphorylation during intake of a protein–carbohydrate drink following resistance exercise in the fasted state - Springer


    Second, the more catabolism that does occur, the more anabolic your next meal will be. The anabolic effect of a meal after fasted training or a prolonged fast negates the catabolic effects of the fasted training or prolonged fast. It's a compensatory response that the body has evolved to react with. A spike in blood amino acid levels, for example, is much more anabolic than a steady influx of amino acids (which is only anti-catabolic).

    In the end, the body takes care of itself and everything balances out, and that's why plenty of people who train fasted still make great lean mass and strength gains, and why those following IF or Warrior diets don't have any issues with maintaining or gaining lean mass.

    The researchers concluded that "Our results indicate that prior fasting may stimulate the intramyocellular anabolic response to ingestion of a carbohydrate/protein/leucine mixture following a heavy resistance training session."
    In other words, increased anabolic activity seen post-workout is a compensatory response to the increased catabolism that occurs during fasted state training. In the end, there is no net difference in muscle growth at the end of the day.
    Now to your argument of muscle loss or catabolism. Again, the body is constantly fluxing between muscle building and wasting. The reason we get bigger and stronger is bc the muscle building happens to be greater than muscle wasting...not bc we can completely stop muscle wasting. Your argument that such a drastic caloric intake will lead to muscle loss is not accurate bc of what I said above (you'll always experience some muscle loss) and bc caloric intake is not what determines muscle gain or loss. The body's first source of fuel is carbohydrates to be turned to glucose. This diet (almost all calories are protein) will only include trace carbs so they're not going to be a source of energy here).

    The other options for energy are fatty acids (which I'm sure no one would mind) and protein. Protein can be converted to glucose via gluconeogenesis. If not enough protein is provided in the diet then yes the body will take it from muscle and organ tissue (catabolism). But remember, most people on this diet will be getting 1.25-2.0g/lb BW of protein. This is MORE than enough to provide sufficient glucose and prevent the body from releasing stored protein from muscle and organs or go NET catabolic. You see, protein intake is set high enough to prevent the muscle loss you're so worried about in the first place.

    Lastly, EVEN IF you were correct, and catabolism was an issue, how much muscle mass do you seriously expect to lose in a few weeks? This is a SHORT TERM dieting plan. Not a long term one. OP mentions running this diet for 2wks. Only a minuscule amount of muscle mass will be lost during those two weeks and the differences between that. And your. 20-25% reduction is NEGLIGIBLE. If planning on running it longer the diet has built in refeeds to prevent adaptation down-regulation of metabolic hormones like leptin, ghrelin, T3/4, peptide YY, etc.

    Once again I'm not saying this is better or worse than anything else. It may or may not work better for OP. Most ppl cannot mentally handle such a diet so kudos to him if he can. My point in this is to point out that catabolism is not a viable concern for not running this program since it will be minimized as much as possible as with any other type of diet.

  28. #28
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    Quote Originally Posted by Docd187123 View Post
    No I'm am not a doctor.

    I don't see where it was misleading, the body at all times is undergoing muscle gain and loss. The NET difference or AUC is whether we actually gain more muscle or not.

    I think you're missing the point. Nowhere did I say it necessarily had any added benefits over a more moderate deficit but that would depend on the context of the situation. Your sole focus of avoiding this type of diet (PSMF) is bc of muscle loss. I am telling you EVERY diet will make you lose LBM. That is unavoidable. But the amount of actual muscle loss isn't solely dependent upon caloric intake, in fact caloric intake isn't even the number one factor for muscle loss.

    To understand why priming MAY benefit you you have to understand the body's ability to adapt and respond to a stressor. This is how weight training works. Provide an adequate stressor (lifting weights), get sufficient rest (recovery), and the body will adapt to the stress so once exposed in the future to the same stress it responds easier. Same principles can apply to dieting and why diets such as IF and Warrior Diet have had tremendous success (when following other basic nutrition principles). The catabolic response to fasting or periods of low caloric intake is matched and sometimes superseded by the body's compensatory effect. Here's one study showing this effect:

    Increased p70s6k phosphorylation during intake of a protein–carbohydrate drink following resistance exercise in the fasted state - Springer




    Now to your argument of muscle loss or catabolism. Again, the body is constantly fluxing between muscle building and wasting. The reason we get bigger and stronger is bc the muscle building happens to be greater than muscle wasting...not bc we can completely stop muscle wasting. Your argument that such a drastic caloric intake will lead to muscle loss is not accurate bc of what I said above (you'll always experience some muscle loss) and bc caloric intake is not what determines muscle gain or loss. The body's first source of fuel is carbohydrates to be turned to glucose. This diet (almost all calories are protein) will only include trace carbs so they're not going to be a source of energy here).

    The other options for energy are fatty acids (which I'm sure no one would mind) and protein. Protein can be converted to glucose via gluconeogenesis. If not enough protein is provided in the diet then yes the body will take it from muscle and organ tissue (catabolism). But remember, most people on this diet will be getting 1.25-2.0g/lb BW of protein. This is MORE than enough to provide sufficient glucose and prevent the body from releasing stored protein from muscle and organs or go NET catabolic. You see, protein intake is set high enough to prevent the muscle loss you're so worried about in the first place.

    Lastly, EVEN IF you were correct, and catabolism was an issue, how much muscle mass do you seriously expect to lose in a few weeks? This is a SHORT TERM dieting plan. Not a long term one. OP mentions running this diet for 2wks. Only a minuscule amount of muscle mass will be lost during those two weeks and the differences between that. And your. 20-25% reduction is NEGLIGIBLE. If planning on running it longer the diet has built in refeeds to prevent adaptation down-regulation of metabolic hormones like leptin, ghrelin, T3/4, peptide YY, etc.

    Once again I'm not saying this is better or worse than anything else. It may or may not work better for OP. Most ppl cannot mentally handle such a diet so kudos to him if he can. My point in this is to point out that catabolism is not a viable concern for not running this program since it will be minimized as much as possible as with any other type of diet.
    I always feel a little smarter after reading your posts. lol

  29. #29
    Quote Originally Posted by slfmade View Post
    I haven't researched this much if any, but at some point don't we reach of point of diminishing returns the longer we run cycles?
    True, but I'm not denying diminishing returns exists. I'm questioning how that applies to the androgen receptor and how not running anything will "freshen receptors and allow them to respond better". Remember androgen receptor down regulation hasn't be shown to happen (but up regulation has) and the only cases of androgen receptor desensitization have I've seen have been due to pathological issues not AAS use.

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    Great coverage on this thread Doc. I couldn't have said it any better.....seriously I mean I couldn't have even if I was that smart

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    Quote Originally Posted by Docd187123 View Post
    True, but I'm not denying diminishing returns exists. I'm questioning how that applies to the androgen receptor and how not running anything will "freshen receptors and allow them to respond better". Remember androgen receptor down regulation hasn't be shown to happen (but up regulation has) and the only cases of androgen receptor desensitization have I've seen have been due to pathological issues not AAS use.
    So why do our returns diminish then if not due to some type of down regulation? Not second guessing - just trying to learn.

  32. #32
    Quote Originally Posted by slfmade View Post
    So why do our returns diminish then if not due to some type of down regulation? Not second guessing - just trying to learn.
    Which returns are you talking about? AAS returns or bulking in general?

  33. #33
    Doc i understand what your saying but the whole dicussion is about 800 cals aday not being needed to complete a proper prime. If the op of this post eats 800 cals aday he will drop about 9.5lbs in the 14day period. Which would drop him roughly from his original 11.5%bf to 7%bf. Now dropping that much bf in 14days is NOT NECESSARY to completea proper prime. So i fail to see your argument that 800cals is a good recommendation. It would give no added benefit over a more proper reduction. Which you stated yourself. So again i fail to see why you are recommending something that would not provide any added benefit.

  34. #34
    Quote Originally Posted by michael30 View Post
    Doc i understand what your saying but the whole dicussion is about 800 cals aday not being needed to complete a proper prime. If the op of this post eats 800 cals aday he will drop about 9.5lbs in the 14day period. Which would drop him roughly from his original 11.5%bf to 7%bf. Now dropping that much bf in 14days is NOT NECESSARY to completea proper prime. So i fail to see your argument that 800cals is a good recommendation. It would give no added benefit over a more proper reduction. Which you stated yourself. So again i fail to see why you are recommending something that would not provide any added benefit.
    You're not seeing it bc you're assuming one method of priming is better than another. Why? Is it bc of muscle loss as you stated? If so I'll refer you to post #27. If there's another reason please explain it.

    Your numbers are also slightly off and so is OP's. Lyle recommends for a category 1 individual (<15% BF) who's lifting weights and active to get
    1.5-2.0g/lb BW of protein. In OP's case this would mean 1260-1680 calories (neglecting the trace carbs and EFAs). 800cals would be better suited to someone either less active and not lifting weights or much smaller than OP.

    I'll take you one step further, a prime is NOT NECESSARY period so why advocate one over the other? OP wants to try this method, which has scientific and real world backing, so why not. All it is is a crash diet to lose weight and fat quickly. Nowhere did I say this method has no added benefit, I said the answer is context dependent. Without arguing the need for priming or not, even if it had no added benefit, the fact that it's no worse than the other method you outline is reason enough to leave it as an option. And the reason I'd consider this personally as an option is bc it's so drastic I wouldn't need to do it for as long as I would a more traditional approach. Think about it, the fat loss you accomplish in 8-10wks of dieting can be had in 2-4wks.

  35. #35
    Quote Originally Posted by michael30 View Post
    Doc i understand what your saying but the whole dicussion is about 800 cals aday not being needed to complete a proper prime. If the op of this post eats 800 cals aday he will drop about 9.5lbs in the 14day period. Which would drop him roughly from his original 11.5%bf to 7%bf. Now dropping that much bf in 14days is NOT NECESSARY to completea proper prime. So i fail to see your argument that 800cals is a good recommendation. It would give no added benefit over a more proper reduction. Which you stated yourself. So again i fail to see why you are recommending something that would not provide any added benefit.

    What defines a ''proper prime'' ? How the hell do you know that my approach will not have any added benefit? Have you ever tried it?

    I am just suggesting a different approach, one that I have not seen before. If you have no interest in what I am suggesting leave my thread.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Battleplan View Post
    What defines a ''proper prime'' ? How the hell do you know that my approach will not have any added benefit? Have you ever tried it?

    I am just suggesting a different approach, one that I have not seen before. If you have no interest in what I am suggesting leave my thread.
    I will tell you that I have tried the diet, not as a prime but just to cut fat. It works well but it does take a commitment. I will likely give it another go soon.

  37. #37
    Quote Originally Posted by Lunk1 View Post
    I will tell you that I have tried the diet, not as a prime but just to cut fat. It works well but it does take a commitment. I will likely give it another go soon.
    I think commitment may be an understatement lol. It certainly takes mental fortitude to stick with it. Did you get carb cravings or just want food in general? What were your stats at the time and protein intake?

  38. #38
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    Quote Originally Posted by Docd187123 View Post
    I think commitment may be an understatement lol. It certainly takes mental fortitude to stick with it. Did you get carb cravings or just want food in general? What were your stats at the time and protein intake?
    I started a thread in nutrition. I actually was not all that hungry because obviously quality food can be eaten in larger quantities than crap food without consuming large amounts of calories. I found myself struggling after about 3 days for carbs though.

  39. #39
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    I'm actually starting in on Monday. Not as a prime but to get to a lower BF% before I start my next cycle (about 5 weeks). Reason being if I can get closer to 10%BF before I start my cycle I might just run Mast instead of Var. As far as will power....I'm sure it'll suck but nothing I can't handle if I keep busy and keep a significant amount of Malatonin on hand. It's hardest for me in times like now...when I'm up late and bored with nothing to keep me busy.

  40. #40
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    Quote Originally Posted by slfmade View Post
    I'm actually starting in on Monday. Not as a prime but to get to a lower BF% before I start my next cycle (about 5 weeks). Reason being if I can get closer to 10%BF before I start my cycle I might just run Mast instead of Var. As far as will power....I'm sure it'll suck but nothing I can't handle if I keep busy and keep a significant amount of Malatonin on hand. It's hardest for me in times like now...when I'm up late and bored with nothing to keep me busy.
    Best of luck! As I said, I will likely try it again. It wasn't all that bad for me because I don't normally eat large quantities of food, just poor nutritional choices.

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