HCG: Why you should use it on-cycle only & how to prepare your hCG for injections

[MODO]

Hey austinite,

I'm taking HCG 214 IU e3d (for a total of 500 IU/wk)... about half way done my cycle and noticing some testicular atrophy. Is this unavoidable? Or a sign that my HCG is too low?

Thanks

[austinite]

Hey austinite,

I'm taking HCG 214 IU e3d (for a total of 500 IU/wk)... about half way done my cycle and noticing some testicular atrophy. Is this unavoidable? Or a sign that my HCG is too low?

Thanks

Should not have atrophy on hCG. Increase dose. No more than 500iu at any given time.

[Kirruha]

Hi Austinite! Thank you for the info you are sharing!
I am running my first cycle based on your advises. 16.03 had a first shot of test cyp 250ME and since then had a feeling that something squeezes my balls ))) yesterday had a shot of 250 ME of HCG – at that moment it was like a relief – discomfort was gone and even today when I did second test cyp injection – nothing alike.
Just wanted to ask – is there any timing protocol for test and HCG injections? Can I do both in a same day or should I separate shots?

[EasyDoesIt]

Many of the questions asked here have been answered repeatedly. This entire thread needs to be read through if you are new to reading it.
http://forums.steroid.com/anabolic-s...ml#post6823601

[Kirruha]

Start using it from week 1. Timing does not matter, just spread it out. For cycling, 250 iu two to three times weekly will suffice. Do not use hCG back to back.

missed that =)

[Docd187123]

Start using it from week 1. Timing does not matter, just spread it out. For cycling, 250 iu two to three times weekly will suffice. Do not use hCG back to back.

missed that =)

Timing does matter just not that much unless you're on TRT.

[jude662]

Thank you for this. I've been paranoid about storing hcg, after hearing all kinds of crap about it "going bad" at room temperature.

[austinite]

Timing does matter just not that much unless you're on TRT.

When I speak of timing, I am referring to timing hCG with respect to Testosterone. That absolutely, 100% does not matter on cycle (literally, zero relevance). You can inject both the same days without any issues whatsoever.

If you're referring to timing between injections, then yes, should be approximately even apart. Obviously you don't want to inject 3 days in a row and then not for 4 days.

On a side note.... you're a slut. And so is kelkel.

[Docd187123]

When I speak of timing, I am referring to timing hCG with respect to Testosterone. That absolutely, 100% does not matter on cycle (literally, zero relevance). You can inject both the same days without any issues whatsoever.

If you're referring to timing between injections, then yes, should be approximately even apart. Obviously you don't want to inject 3 days in a row and then not for 4 days.

On a side note.... you're a slut. And so is kelkel.

On a diagonally backwards inside out note...I'm content being one

[MR10X]

The size of your balls is not an indicator of whether they are producing testosterone.Only about 3% of your balls produce testosterone the rest of it produces sperm. the outer layer is the cells that produce testosterone.

[Elijah V]

So what if you live in Australia? Is it still worth cycling with the absence of HCG? Getting HCG here isn't the same as walking into a clinic in America unfortunately. It's very close to impossible getting your hands on HCG. Are there any Australians on this board who use HCG in their protocol?

[kronik420]

So what if you live in Australia? Is it still worth cycling with the absence of HCG? Getting HCG here isn't the same as walking into a clinic in America unfortunately. It's very close to impossible getting your hands on HCG. Are there any Australians on this board who use HCG in their protocol?

Hcg is hard to find yes.. but not impossible..

[JuiceBox7]

Great read!

[NoBulkNoCutJustGrow]

Great read Austinite thanks for the info. Got a quick question when you can; I need to take a maintenance dose of Tamoxifen at 10mg a day to prevent any onset gyno which I've been prone to before during cycle. Would this combination of Tamoxifen and HCG cause an over-stimulation of the leydig cells even at just 10mg a day and 500 iu/week respectively? Or would these compounds still be functional and beneficial in synergy? Thanks again for the info and the help.

[austinite]

double post.

[austinite]

Great read Austinite thanks for the info. Got a quick question when you can; I need to take a maintenance dose of Tamoxifen at 10mg a day to prevent any onset gyno which I've been prone to before during cycle. Would this combination of Tamoxifen and HCG cause an over-stimulation of the leydig cells even at just 10mg a day and 500 iu/week respectively? Or would these compounds still be functional and beneficial in synergy? Thanks again for the info and the help.

Tamoxifen has nothing to do with Leydig cells. Tamoxifen works in the head to restart your hypothalamus and pituitary so that LH and FSH are produced. LH then stimulates leydig cells, but it's natural production, not LH analog which is mimicked by hCG and bypasses pituitary.

The answer to your question is No.

Synergy? No. They should not be used simultaneously. Tamoxifen trys to restart and hCG is suppressive. Counter-productivity at its finest.

[NoBulkNoCutJustGrow]

Tamoxifen has nothing to do with Leydig cells. Tamoxifen works in the head to restart your hypothalamus and pituitary so that LH and FSH are produced. LH then stimulates leydig cells, but it's natural production, not LH analog which is mimicked by hCG and bypasses pituitary.

The answer to your question is No.

Synergy? No. They should not be used simultaneously. Tamoxifen trys to restart and hCG is suppressive. Counter-productivity at its finest.

Ahh now I see things more clearly in regards to the actions of Tamoxifen. Although you say it's counter productive but wouldn't we want our pituitary to be stimulated throughout the cycle so when it comes to PCT the recovery would be faster? Even though we're introducing analog LH wouldn't it be beneficial to keep the pituitary and the Hypothalamus active in that regard?

I say that because I've been reading and finding conflicting info regarding this. For example:

Tamoxifen Blocks HCG Induced Leydig Cell Desensitization
HCG induced testicular desensitization seems to be a hot topic. There are a number of studies showing that concomitant use of Nolvadex ameliorates this. The first abstract suggests that HCG at least partially blocks the conversion of 17 alpha-hydroxyprogesterone (17 OHP), a testosterone precursor, to testosterone. This effect is suppressed by Nolvadex.

The second abstract seems to indicate that estrogen may not be the only culprit, since Nolvadex plus HCG does not increase T levels any more than HCG alone, even though the combination reduces desensitization.

Since we are trying to avoid this desensitization so when we quit the HCG our testes respond to our endogenous LH, it makes sense to always use nolvadex with HCG to at least help the problem, if not solve it completely.


J Clin Endocrinol Metab 1980 Nov;51(5):1026-9

Tamoxifen suppresses gonadotropin-induced 17 alpha-hydroxyprogesterone accumulation in normal men.

Smals AG, Pieters GF, Drayer JI, Boers GH, Benraad TJ, Kloppenborg PW.

Intramuscular administration of 1500 IU hCG daily for 3 days induced a transient accumulation of 17 alpha-hydroxyprogesterone (17 OHP) relative to testosterone (T) in normal men, reaching its maximum 24 h after the first injection (17 OHP to T ratio, 1.7 +/- 0.3 times baseline; P < 0.01). Simultaneous administration of hCG and the estrogen antagonist tamoxifen (20 mg twice daily) almost completely abolished the hCG-induced steroidogenic block localized between 17 OHP and T (17 OHP to T ratio at 24 h, 1.1 +/- 0.1 times baseline; P < 0.01 vs. hCG alone). These data indirectly suggest that, in man, the hCG-induced steroidogenic lesion might be mediated through its estrogen-stimulating effect.

It also appears that a low dose of Tamoxifen might help with any desensitization that might occur which is something we definitely do not want.

Any thoughts?

[austinite]

^ No. Tamox will not impact leydig cells the way hCG does.

And no, you don't want pituitary "stimulated" on cycle, testosterone or whatever steroid you're taking is shutting it down hard. Makes no sense really.

There's a million and one studies, many of which are easily debunked. Not everyone has to agree, but I can tell you that I don't know many people that dove into this topic as much as I have, and researched and tested most material as much as I have. This article is not just a "Collection" of crap from the net like every other article online, its tried and true.

Your job is to use whatever info you can to make an informed decision.

[Currupted]

Ausitine,

Beautiful post .. loved the info and comments ive gone through the whole thing ... im dealing with a hard issue and need your advice.

Im currently on a sust/mast cycle and need to introduce HCG twice a week at 250IU ( Saturday / Wednesday ) my problem is I cant get any bac water in this part of the world ... and the HCG is sold in a 1ML vial with a 1ML solution which is 5000IU

and that's basically the only thing I can get that is pharma grade and direct from pharmacy ... no one here has bac water and if you ask for it they look at you like your asking for something impossible.. they don't sell empty sterile vials either.

so what I was thinking is I would buy 3 packs so I will have the 3ML of bac water. mix 1ML wth the powder and put it into a 5ML syringe ... then draw a additional 1.5ML water from the other 2 packs I got and throw away their powder.

so ill end up with 2.5ML of liquid that I can use a slin syringe to draw from the original 5ML syringe that im storing the solution in. ( is this fine ? ) using a syringe to store the HCG? I really don't have many other options.

So ill end up drawing .125cc on a slin pin to get my 250IU twice a week.

sound good? or have other suggestions ?

[EasyDoesIt]

Ausitine,

Beautiful post .. loved the info and comments ive gone through the whole thing ... im dealing with a hard issue and need your advice.

Im currently on a sust/mast cycle and need to introduce HCG twice a week at 250IU ( Saturday / Wednesday ) my problem is I cant get any bac water in this part of the world ... and the HCG is sold in a 1ML vial with a 1ML solution which is 5000IU

and that's basically the only thing I can get that is pharma grade and direct from pharmacy ... no one here has bac water and if you ask for it they look at you like your asking for something impossible.. they don't sell empty sterile vials either.

so what I was thinking is I would buy 3 packs so I will have the 3ML of bac water. mix 1ML wth the powder and put it into a 5ML syringe ... then draw a additional 1.5ML water from the other 2 packs I got and throw away their powder.

so ill end up with 2.5ML of liquid that I can use a slin syringe to draw from the original 5ML syringe that im storing the solution in. ( is this fine ? ) using a syringe to store the HCG? I really don't have many other options.

So ill end up drawing .125cc on a slin pin to get my 250IU twice a week.

sound good? or have other suggestions ?

Not to answer for Austinite, but in case you get anxious and start the process, most hcg i have bought is not accompanied with bac water, its sodium chloride or purified water and that lasts only a couple days, so check the label before you do anything. HCG can be stored in syringes, but not all of it in one if you were planning on refrigerating and re using? You would need to load each syringe and refrigerate them. I would have a strong suspicion your hcg came with sodium chloride.

[austinite]

^ right on, EDI.

You could always use injectable B12 or make your own BAC water. Super easy.

[Currupted]

ok so I can walk in a pharmacy and get injectable B12 ... they also come in 1ML amps >.>

ill check the amp in my pregnyl when I get back ... but most likely its going to be what you said .. sodium chloride

you said I can make my own bac water? this worries me ... I wouldn't even trust eating eggs if I made them .. never mind making my own injectable substance. id be worried like hell about this.. but you wanna explain t anyway?

[austinite]

ok so I can walk in a pharmacy and get injectable B12 ... they also come in 1ML amps >.>

ill check the amp in my pregnyl when I get back ... but most likely its going to be what you said .. sodium chloride

you said I can make my own bac water? this worries me ... I wouldn't even trust eating eggs if I made them .. never mind making my own injectable substance. id be worried like hell about this.. but you wanna explain t anyway?

No not really. There are many threads on making BAC water. Hit the search button my friend.

[Currupted]

Done. Thanks anyway

[acetrentura]

This should really be a sticky.

[babarrr]

Benefits of hCG during your cycle:

1. Prevention of testicular atrophy.
-- This is done by mimicking LH and restarting natural testosterone production in the testes.


Austinite, you are saying that use HCG during your cycle to avoid atrophy. That means on one side we are shrinking the testes by injecting AAS and then avoiding shrinkage by HCG. Will it not confuse the hell out of our body?

[austinite]

Benefits of hCG during your cycle:

1. Prevention of testicular atrophy.
-- This is done by mimicking LH and restarting natural testosterone production in the testes.


Austinite, you are saying that use HCG during your cycle to avoid atrophy. That means on one side we are shrinking the testes by injecting AAS and then avoiding shrinkage by HCG. Will it not confuse the hell out of our body?

No. Your hypothalamus and pituitary are shut down regardless. hCG mimics LH analog, it's not secreting LH at the pituitary.

Give this a read when you have time: http://forums.steroid.com/anabolic-s...ffect-you.html

[babarrr]

Thanks for a quick reply.
I am just wondering if i use HCG 10 days after my Test E last shot for 10 consecutive days. Do you think i can bring LH to a requied level as if i were using it during the cycle? i have read some articles in this forums that suggest to use HCG 500iu-1000iu ED for 10 days. Comparing this dose to suggested by you, this seems way too high?

[austinite]

As stated in the article, I do not recommend hCG post cycle. It will do nothing for bringing LH back. SERMs bring LH back, hCG is suppressive. On cycle only.

[babarrr]

Makes sense. Just a final curiosity, can we use Test-E shot, HCG shot and AI the same day?

[austinite]

Makes sense. Just a final curiosity, can we use Test-E shot, HCG shot and AI the same day?

Yes. You can inject Test and hCG together.

[babarrr]

Great Post and helpful answers. Thanks a lot again.

[hackskii]

If hCG is not used during cycle, then it absolutely can be used with good success post cycle.

Sure hCG will inhibit LH, but that can be brought back in weeks time with clomid.
Clomid at 100mg ED for 5 to 7 days doubles LH function and can increase FSH by 20% to 50%.
Not to mention of a SERM is taken during hCG therapy FSH will come back within range prior to stopping hCG.

Using a SERM instead of hCG post cycle can add months to the mix of recovery.
Testicular function takes many times longer to achieve than pituitary function.
Bring the nuts back first, then use SERMS you will recover faster.

[BulkCity]

IF using nolvadex while on cycle is HCG still necessary?
Nolva promotes the production of natural test.. therefore combating against testicular shrinkage..
Using nolva for 2 weeks post cycle would that be enough for PCT?

[austinite]

If hCG is not used during cycle, then it absolutely can be used with good success post cycle.

Sure hCG will inhibit LH, but that can be brought back in weeks time with clomid.
Clomid at 100mg ED for 5 to 7 days doubles LH function and can increase FSH by 20% to 50%.
Not to mention of a SERM is taken during hCG therapy FSH will come back within range prior to stopping hCG.

Using a SERM instead of hCG post cycle can add months to the mix of recovery.
Testicular function takes many times longer to achieve than pituitary function.
Bring the nuts back first, then use SERMS you will recover faster.

Not true at all. You are not thinking of steroid abuse, which is what we all do here. Your info is ancient and should be updated. I don't think you understand how any of this works. Check the HPTA explanation thread to understand further.

[hackskii]

Not true at all. You are not thinking of steroid abuse, which is what we all do here. Your info is ancient and should be updated. I don't think you understand how any of this works. Check the HPTA explanation thread to understand further.

Really?
I have been posting on this subject for 10 years, I clearly grasp the concept.

Just for clarity sake let me ask you some questions.

Are you saying post cycle that a SERM will recover the testicular axis as fast as hCG?
I mean for testicular function you are alluding to a SERM working as fast and as good as hCG is this correct?

How long does it take using a SERM to get testicular funciton if one is shut down?

How long does the pituitary take to fire up using a SERM when shut down?

Please feel free to go into as much detail as you can, you wont lose me along the way.

[austinite]

Really?
I have been posting on this subject for 10 years, I clearly grasp the concept.

Just for clarity sake let me ask you some questions.

Are you saying post cycle that a SERM will recover the testicular axis as fast as hCG?
I mean for testicular function you are alluding to a SERM working as fast and as good as hCG is this correct?

How long does it take using a SERM to get testicular funciton if one is shut down?

How long does the pituitary take to fire up using a SERM when shut down?

Please feel free to go into as much detail as you can, you wont lose me along the way.

I already went into detail. Read threads that I've posted. I have no issue if you want to disagree, but maybe start a new thread to educate people rather than making up 10 year old info in this thread, where a tremendous amount of educated members and physicians in the field have endorsed. It's really not rocket science, your info was accurate once, but no longer true. We've developed since then with more info. So it really doesn't matter how long you've been "posting" about this. I've worked with several qualified urologists, this isn't your usual random article.

To answer your questions,

hCG DOES NOT recover HPTA faster. In fact, it will cause more harm than good at doses that would make a difference. This is why we use it on cycle, not post cycle.

We use a SERM post cycle because now all we have to recover is your hypothalamus and pituitary, we've already maintain the leydig cells. No need for hCG once again.

Let me get my crystal ball and check how long it takes to recover..... well, it says everyone is different, and no matter the method, there are no guarantees. However, there are more recent clinical studies indicative of SERM therapy as a positive and most impactful method. Many of which were shut down for many years. SERM therapy is and until something better comes along, the gold standard among educated and up to date physicians. Emphasis on "Up to date".

Let me gram the crystal ball again... Well, once again, everyone is different and it also says that everyones' cycles are different, even the length of shutdown varies it seems. So with that, the question is rendered useless.

Feel free to take the time to educate everyone with a new thread so that we can learn your methods. (Unless you just want to object in this thread), in which case I'm really not interested. Not because I don't enjoy a good debate, as I've answered tons of legible questions in many threads, but because your questions are fruitless. They make no sense. This is similar to asking "How much water will spill from the pool if someone jumps in?" Well, no one knows, questions is too broad.

The point of this thread is, whether you agree or not, is that everything leading up to hCG mono-therapy is known as garbage today. Regardless of how it worked in the past, it still had a fairly poor record. However, SERM therapy is proven superior with more recent studies.

Have a powerful day.

[hackskii]

There is a growing interest and treatment for Anabolic Steroid Induced Hypogonadism (AISH)
Now this is going to come as a surprise but the treatments is hCG, and SERM therapy.
Dr. John Christler (AKA Swale) TRT doctor, Dr. Michael Scally both use hCG, and SERMS, so the methods are not outdated you have a strong opinion and a closed mind.

hCG directly stimulates leydig cells to produce tesotsterone.
Lets do some math here.
With no intervention LH function can come back fairly quick, but testicular function very slow.
Looking at the chart above it is far slower to recover testosterone even when LH gets to normal range.

I always suggest hCG during, that was never part of the debate, but some guys are on for a very long time and use no hCG.
With no intervention it can take up to a year (seen this first hand with my brother) as verified by blood results.

Clomid works by making GnRH more sensitive at the pituitary, but also comes with a price if ran for too long or too high.
Clomid at 100mg ED for 5 to 7 days doubles LH output and can increase FSH by 20% to 50%, this is well known.
But, when LH levels are low, doubling that is still not that big of deal.

hCG directly stimulates leydig cells within 2 hours of shooting that.
This direct stimulation takes weeks, even months out of the equation for waiting for LH to come up to speed with SERMS.

If LH function comes back faster than testicular function, why put the SERM in front of hCG when testicular function is the biggest hurdle in the equation for recovery?
Lets not even mention the ocular toxicity of clomid over time either, and clomids ability to make men not so manly....lol

I came to this thread from a link on a debate.
hCG should be used during, I totally 100% agree, but for those that have no testicular function from being on cycle, and no hCG, one would be a fool to not use it.
Within weeks (as verified myself with bloods) testosterone levels can be within range using hCG, and with a SERM, one may have high LH, but low testosterone, as testicular function takes some time.

Its funny how you suggested hCG therapy is outdated when docs that deal with men use it to this very day.
In fact, in light of what was suggested I have yet to find one doc that does it the way you suggest.
I pretty much came here to correct the misinformation.

Have a nice day.

[austinite]

lol. First of all, I never said hCG therapy is outdated. YOUR particular method is, aka mono-therapy. I'm sure you're on the same boat with shooting 1000's of IU's at once. Silly at best. Again, you need to stay up to date, there aren't very many docs that are up to date, which is why it's difficult to find a reputable doc today.

Just stay up to date, that's all I ask. If your 10 year old info is good enough for you, great. Enjoy your method. I don't recommend it, at all. And neither does the 2 lead urologists in Houston, and neither did the majority of the informed physicians at ENDO 2012 and ENDO 2013. Look up the seminars.

Your info is old and outdated, and because the majority are clueless to today's methods, you remain brainwashed with old-school methods. Next thing you're going to tell me "Tapering off steroids is good enough" like we did in the 90's.

Seriously, Kiddo. Do some real research and speak to qualified folks, I promise you'll see the good in SERM therapy one day.

Again, I invite you to start a thread with your methods.

[hackskii]

Using SERMS to jump start the testicles when testicular failure is in play is like using a VW engine on a Ferrari, it will work but not very well, in fact it can take months for that to work.
I have tons of data on this one, bloods too.

hCG with the use of SERMS can allow full testicular function (T levels) as verified by bloods within weeks, not months.
In fact even FSH will be within range when SERMS are used with hCG, just not LH.
Yes, LH will fall with the use of hCG, but only LH, and that will be brought back with the use of SERMS pretty quick.

A guy that was totally shutdown can be restored in as little as 6 weeks time with no hCG used during the cycle.
SERMS, well probably months time.
Why should a guy suffer quality of life issues for months when he can do it in weeks?

Saying SERM therapy with total dysfunction of the HPTA is as good as hCG and SERMS is just not true.

Like I said, ASIH is now known in the medical community, and SERM therapy is not the treatment alone, not sure where you get that, but if you like I can post that information.
You are the only one that suggests this, and your position you are standing on is not very solid.

Endo doctors use the hCG stimulation test to diagnose primary hypogonadism, and guess what kiddo, it is more than 1000iu injection.
Nothing wrong with the bigger doses, but it would be a good idea to have some nolva on hand to protect leydig cells.
And the whole desensitization thing is a myth as well.

With fully functional testicles 250iu hCG EOD produces 93% of intra-testicular testosterone (ITT) on cycle.
With nuts that are not accepting LH due to atrophy/nonfunction it would require a higher dose.

Recovery from hCG with a SERM is pretty damn quick.