Strange side effects with Deca, Help

[Slacker78]

Hello Folks, i'm new here. I hope to give/find good informations.
My problem is the following.

I've started a steroids cycle of 9 weeks using 250mg/wk testosterone enanthate plus Nandrolone decanoate 250mg/wk; i started just with test alone in the first 2 weeks and after added Nandrolone in the 3th week.

After doing the 250mg/wk Nandrolone injection, the next day i've felt pretty anxious and warm, much tired ( seems to be without energy ) and similar in lethargic state. I felt pretty agitated with a blood pressure above 135/90. I don't know if this is connected to Nandrolone or the sum of the two steroids dosages; i also felt a bit acid gastric reflux increasing ( even i suffer it since a lot of years ). For what i know, as the blood test i did a month ago before starting, all my base parameters were good and within normal ranges.

Did you ever experienced similar effects ? And if so, how Nandrolone decanoate could be connected with this ( using just test enanthate , never felt this effects... ) ?


My guess is an hormones unbalance. Adding Deca at that dosage it creates, with the Test Enanthate, an excessive androgens presence, since Deca aromatize at 20% of Test. Another assumption could be i do not well tolerate progestins.

Thank you.
David.

[lovbyts]

It sounds more like anxiety.

[Buster Brown]

That is not considered a high/dangerous dosage to be using. I would recommend splitting up your dosages twice weekly however. What are your stats? Does high blood pressure run in your family and do you know what it was before? What is your body fat and what does your diet look like? Sometimes its a process of elimination to find out what a problem may be.

[lzicc]

Test flu maybe. I feel like I am starting to get sick when I start a new cycle. It's like my body thinks the compound is a infection and tries to fight it off. It never wins though.

[Slacker78]

That is not considered a high/dangerous dosage to be using. I would recommend splitting up your dosages twice weekly however. What are your stats? Does high blood pressure run in your family and do you know what it was before? What is your body fat and what does your diet look like? Sometimes its a process of elimination to find out what a problem may be.

Yes, it could be related to anxiety as i have been always anxiuos. There's no family history as high blood pressure except anxiety history. But i would exclude other causes before to connect all to anxiety. My blood pressure always was similar to this; it changes day by day based my emotions and stress. Body fat is around 14%. I already have splitted the dosage twice Bro, but now i have fear to continue using Deca even it's probably it's not the cause. I'm taking fish oil as supplement ( 4g/day), vitamins, and sylimarin to protect the liver. The diet is regular, no strange aliments: rice, chicken, fishes, albumens divided in correct proportions. The only problem is that i take a lot of coffee ( 3 at days) and that could be some cause.... but i would be secure it about....

[Slacker78]

Test flu maybe. I feel like I am starting to get sick when I start a new cycle. It's like my body thinks the compound is a infection and tries to fight it off. It never wins though.

Yessss, some feelings were flu like... but it seems it was like a little depression state, energyless and agitation.... with Test alone, i felt a leon... all begin when i did the Deca in the next 48 hour... today i feel a little better ( 3° day ).

[Slacker78]

However, i guess this is caused by an high raising of estrogens level ( i'm not taking Arimidex still ). I have read that an high estrogens level, cause lethargic state and lack of strength... is there anyone could be confirm this hypothesis ?

[MuscleInk]

However, i guess this is caused by an high raising of estrogens level ( i'm not taking Arimidex still ). I have read that an high estrogens level, cause lethargic state and lack of strength... is there anyone could be confirm this hypothesis ?

What is the reason for excluding an AI? Increasing estrogens will impact hematocrit, hemaglobin, promote dangerous blood clots, reduce wound healing, promote arthralgia and myalgia (joint pain similar to arthritis and muscle pain), cause erectile dysfunction and impair libido.

[Slacker78]

What is the reason for excluding an AI? Increasing estrogens will impact hematocrit, hemaglobin, promote dangerous blood clots, reduce wound healing, promote arthralgia and myalgia (joint pain similar to arthritis and muscle pain), cause erectile dysfunction and impair libido.

I excluded AI because i'm still waiting to get it from pharmacist friend who i could get at lower price. But Tomorrow i will go to buy it from another source even i will pay it to full price, given the events.

As far as i know, high estrogens level does not impact to hematocrit ... i have read this to this forum by other veteran members... are you sure what you said, high estrogens level impact to hematocrit ?

[MuscleInk]

In clinic, we (colleagues and I) have observed the following with elevated serum estrogen in men:
- reduced O2 stat
- increased platelet activation
- increased hematocrit
- increased erythrocyte count
- increased total leukocyte count

[Slacker78]

In clinic, we (colleagues and I) have observed the following with elevated serum estrogen in men:
- reduced O2 stat
- increased platelet activation
- increased hematocrit
- increased erythrocyte count
- increased total leukocyte count

Ah ok... so it's not true that just Test may increase hematocrit... even estrogens do. I assume this might cause agitation and anxiety too, isn'it ?

Do you think my problems is caused by excessive estrogens buildup ? If so, how can i adjust better the cycle ? Beginning to take 0.25 Arimidex ED and/or suspending Deca ?

Thank you so much MuscleInk.

[MuscleInk]

Ah ok... so it's not true that just Test may increase hematocrit... even estrogens do. I assume this might cause agitation and anxiety too, isn'it ? Do you think my problems is caused by excessive estrogens buildup ? If so, how can i adjust better the cycle ? Beginning to take 0.25 Arimidex ED and/or suspending Deca ? Thank you so much MuscleInk.

Both will affect the parameters described above. Testosterone will have a slightly larger impact but the two increasing together (estrogen + testosterone) will have additive effects.

Admittedly, the change in O2 saturation was unexpected. I hadn't seen that before but also hadn't paid particular attention to it.

Changed in any hormone levels (including estrogen) will have a corresponding effect on psychological variables. Hormones regulate and influence your immune system, digestion, sleep, appetite, would healing, libido, sexual function, thinking, memory, wakefulness and more. A change from normal levels would certainly affect behaviors as well as physiology.

A proper AI (.25mg adex EOD or 12.5-25mg of aromasin ED) should regulate your E2. Controlling your E2 becomes greater when using 19-nor compounds as these compounds can affect other hormones (e.g. Luteotropin/prolactin).

[Slacker78]

Both will affect the parameters described above. Testosterone will have a slightly larger impact but the two increasing together (estrogen + testosterone) will have additive effects.

Admittedly, the change in O2 saturation was unexpected. I hadn't seen that before but also hadn't paid particular attention to it.

Changed in any hormone levels (including estrogen) will have a corresponding effect on psychological variables. Hormones regulate and influence your immune system, digestion, sleep, appetite, would healing, libido, sexual function, thinking, memory, wakefulness and more. A change from normal levels would certainly affect behaviors as well as physiology.

A proper AI (.25mg adex EOD or 12.5-25mg of aromasin ED) should regulate your E2. Controlling your E2 becomes greater when using 19-nor compounds as these compounds can affect other hormones (e.g. Luteotropin/prolactin).

Great MuscleInk, thank you so much. Please answer to me at these 2 last questions:

1) 19-nor compound like Deca, although they aromatize at 20% of Testosterone, could create a more worse aromatizing impact than Test due to progesterone affinity ( in particular to predisposed subjects )... is this true ? Further is said 19-nor compounds behave as antagonist of progestins receptors, increasing the concentration of the natural progesterone in other estrogen receptors .... i assume this is the dynamic...

2) Another effects i'm experiencing, are nausea and a lack of appetite.... i wonder if this is pathognomonic of an high estrogens level or ... androgens ? Even libido seems to be lower since i did Deca injection ( it was high instead with Test alone even i suppose these effects are a backlog of aromatization increasing.

3) Finally.... why with 19-nor compound E2 could be Greater than Test alone ?

Thank you again friend.

[MuscleInk]

Great MuscleInk, thank you so much. Please answer to me at these 2 last questions: 1) 19-nor compound like Deca, although they aromatize at 20% of Testosterone, could create a more worse aromatizing impact than Test due to progesterone affinity ( in particular to predisposed subjects )... is this true ? Further is said 19-nor compounds behave as antagonist of progestins receptors, increasing the concentration of the natural progesterone in other estrogen receptors .... i assume this is the dynamic... 2) Another effects i'm experiencing, are nausea and a lack of appetite.... i wonder if this is pathognomonic of an high estrogens level or ... androgens ? Even libido seems to be lower since i did Deca injection ( it was high instead with Test alone even i suppose these effects are a backlog of aromatization increasing. 3) Finally.... why with 19-nor compound E2 could be Greater than Test alone ? Thank you again friend.

Yes, a concern for many with 19 nors are the progesterone risks. For this reason, most will run a dopamine agonist to suppress progesterone risks. Not everyone is equally prone and if E2 is properly managed, a DA may be unnecessary. Most will run a DA (cabergoline or pramipexole) just to be safe. These should be dosed carefully however.

Changes to digestion are a little harder to diagnose. Again, with changes to hormone levels and increased protein intake, digestion and GI pH are affected. Some people experience increased appetite, others a suppression and it can vary with choice of steroids. I get greater GI distress from tren and mast and my appetite is all over the place compared to a single long ester cycle. B12 can help with appetite issues in some cases but not all.

[Slacker78]

Over the prolactin, what are the other risks related to progesterone ? Further... through what mechanism it affects the E2 ?

I was thinking to eliminate Deca and raise Test from 250mg/wk to 500mg in twice injections.
What do you suggest me to proceed in careful way (i know it's hard to say, but as general advice i mean ) ?

[kelkel]

Read Austinites "How to Run a Successful First Cycle" sticky. It's in the Educational Articles Database at the top of this forum. Simply follow that.

[Slacker78]

Read Austinites "How to Run a Successful First Cycle" sticky. It's in the Educational Articles Database at the top of this forum. Simply follow that.

Ok, i try, thank you so much kelkel !