Quote Originally Posted by Times Roman View Post
so your argument is it is hard for you to understand the "something from nothing" concept? Join the club. But, at the quantum scale, this is the norm. Particles pop in and out of existence all the time. So the idea of a universe arising where none existed before is along the same lines.

#1) no, that does not make him wrong, but it also does not make him right either. So, who/what is the revealer, and what is revealed? We would need to understand the nature of revelation and define it precisely to answer the question. In this scenario, it is quite possible that what is revealed is a natural phenomenon that the first individual doesn't understand in his limited state. What would happen if for a brief moment due to a rock slide that it was the sun that was revealed? Does this sun now "prove" there is life outside the cave? We would both agree it does not, yet individual one would still aggressively defend his belief, would he not?

#2) two independent situations are now present. person number two's choice not to believe has no impact on whether or not there is life outside the cave. Now, we would need to define this "something" again, wouldn't we. And also the word "revealed" again too. Because our whole conversation would hinge on what these two words mean. if by the word "revealed" you mean that this revelation somehow proves there IS life outside the cave, then at that particular point in time, there IS life outside the cave, even if just for that particular moment in time. After the event passes, there are no further assurances that life continues to exist beyond that point in time, and so therefore, once again, there may be no life beyond the cave walls other than theirs.

make sense?
Yes, it makes sense. However, my overall point was some choosing to ignore things that are revealed because they do not make sense in terms of the world as they know it. Obviously I cannot prove this, it's just a thought, theory or whatever else you'd like to call it - but I'm convinced that if God opened the heavens and came to earth for all to see, there are many who would still deny his existence. The sky being ripped open, the universe being torn apart from the outside and a figure emerging, this makes no sense in terms of how we see, view and understand the world, science or reality. Therefore, many, on that basis, would still deny the existence of God.