Fertility rate of european countries

[hammerheart]

Also, I've always heard that our country has about zero population growth, neither declining or increasing, or increasing slightly, but I'll see if I can get a look at later statistics.
But I've also seen that in Italy the population growth is negative,
they need immigration to not collapse;
Getting a ton of senior citizens on pension with a tiny workforce to feed them,
which is a common issue in Europe due to the WW2 baby boom.

That is true we got an old population but the least thing we need is mass immigration to sustain with our own taxes also.

We don't need workforce either, because of high rate of unemployment, the issue is immigrants are preferred because well, employers have to pay them less than Italians, and most of the time evading work taxes also.

[DocToxin8]

That is true we got an old population but the least thing we need is mass immigration to sustain with our own taxes also.

We don't need workforce either, because of high rate of unemployment, the issue is immigrants are preferred because well, employers have to pay them less than Italians, and most of the time evading work taxes also.

The idea of having mass immigration to keep the workforce doesn't appeal to anyone, I agree with that. But do you see any other viable solution to the problem?
We are talking about immigrants coming to work (and probably settle down eventually if you let them), not refugees and such.
Still, there's always gonna be a culture clash if their not European.

But how do you propose to keep the old population in humane settings without a workforce to sustain it?

[hammerheart]

The idea of having mass immigration to keep the workforce doesn't appeal to anyone, I agree with that. But do you see any other viable solution to the problem?
We are talking about immigrants coming to work (and probably settle down eventually if you let them), not refugees and such.
Still, there's always gonna be a culture clash if their not European.

But how do you propose to keep the old population in humane settings without a workforce to sustain it?

Doc we got a 12% unemployment rate, that's all unused workforce. Most of the migrants you will see them became a workforce for local mafias, or best case, do abs nothing at our expenses.

Sure taking in SOME immigrants is good but no one in europe needs MASS immigration.

We can well sustain our old pop if tax evasion wasn't a national emergency.

[cousinmuscles]

The idea of having mass immigration to keep the workforce doesn't appeal to anyone, I agree with that. But do you see any other viable solution to the problem?
We are talking about immigrants coming to work (and probably settle down eventually if you let them), not refugees and such.
Still, there's always gonna be a culture clash if their not European.

But how do you propose to keep the old population in humane settings without a workforce to sustain it?

I am not trying to be offensive so just read my reply objectively. Your view on this is very heavily coloured by the socialism type view we have on the west. We are taxed and then get things in return for the good of all. Well not all cultures are like this, actually very few are throughout history. The normal view (historically) is that your children take care of you when you are unable to take care of yourself. And during your lifetime you save wealth and useful assets needed to survive. But here we are in this culture where that is the responsibility of the state, and they tax us (while rarely being transparent with how they use it, and have tons of high level government workers making millions). And suddenly they claim there will not be enough money, despite those oldies having worked all their lives paying taxes. Where did that money go?

I might sound evil here but this whole scheme is simply something I never agreed to participate in, and is certainly not something me or my family will suffer by. If I never have kids I will die when I cant keep myself going.

[Obs]

I am not trying to be offensive so just read my reply objectively. Your view on this is very heavily coloured by the socialism type view we have on the west. We are taxed and then get things in return for the good of all. Well not all cultures are like this, actually very few are throughout history. The normal view (historically) is that your children take care of you when you are unable to take care of yourself. And during your lifetime you save wealth and useful assets needed to survive. But here we are in this culture where that is the responsibility of the state, and they tax us (while rarely being transparent with how they use it, and have tons of high level government workers making millions). And suddenly they claim there will not be enough money, despite those oldies having worked all their lives paying taxes. Where did that money go?

I might sound evil here but this whole scheme is simply something I never agreed to participate in, and is certainly not something me or my family will suffer by. If I never have kids I will die when I cant keep myself going.

That was very well said.

[DocToxin8]

I am not trying to be offensive so just read my reply objectively. Your view on this is very heavily coloured by the socialism type view we have on the west. We are taxed and then get things in return for the good of all. Well not all cultures are like this, actually very few are throughout history. The normal view (historically) is that your children take care of you when you are unable to take care of yourself. And during your lifetime you save wealth and useful assets needed to survive. But here we are in this culture where that is the responsibility of the state, and they tax us (while rarely being transparent with how they use it, and have tons of high level government workers making millions). And suddenly they claim there will not be enough money, despite those oldies having worked all their lives paying taxes. Where did that money go?

I might sound evil here but this whole scheme is simply something I never agreed to participate in, and is certainly not something me or my family will suffer by. If I never have kids I will die when I cant keep myself going.

Totally valid arguments.

It's debatable where the philosophy of how you judge a culture is how it takes care of its least important, is indeed a sustainable (or even optimal) way of thinking about how a culture/society should function.

The seniors pension (that they have paid for by taxes themselves),
where did it go? Is also a good argument.
Well it's not difficult to imagine where it went actually;
1 stroke patient requiring 24h care 365days a year will eat up what 100 people have payed in tax, (not actual data, just an example)

But most people would find it objectionable if we were to deny stroke patients food f.ex.
I'm not so sure though, I'd give em morphine to eat instead.
That's what I'd want in their situation.
But it does become a slippery slope.
What about a 20yo diabetic that's been sick the last year and unable to work,
and doesn't have family?

I guess many such questions could be solved by some common sense,
but you do have a lot of people in our society that won't contribute much by way of producing.
Stephen Hawking does fine selling his books,
but I'm sure you could find examples of people like him that haven't had much luck business wise. Or not as much luck/success.

Little off topic though.

And I also think Questers into something.
You don't need as many programmers watching the automata as you need laborers that those automata replace.
If so automatization would be pointless.

[cousinmuscles]

Totally valid arguments.

It's debatable where the philosophy of how you judge a culture is how it takes care of its least important, is indeed a sustainable (or even optimal) way of thinking about how a culture/society should function.

The seniors pension (that they have paid for by taxes themselves),
where did it go? Is also a good argument.
Well it's not difficult to imagine where it went actually;
1 stroke patient requiring 24h care 365days a year will eat up what 100 people have payed in tax, (not actual data, just an example)

But most people would find it objectionable if we were to deny stroke patients food f.ex.
I'm not so sure though, I'd give em morphine to eat instead.
That's what I'd want in their situation.
But it does become a slippery slope.
What about a 20yo diabetic that's been sick the last year and unable to work,
and doesn't have family?

I guess many such questions could be solved by some common sense,
but you do have a lot of people in our society that won't contribute much by way of producing.
Stephen Hawking does fine selling his books,
but I'm sure you could find examples of people like him that haven't had much luck business wise. Or not as much luck/success.

Little off topic though.

And I also think Questers into something.
You don't need as many programmers watching the automata as you need laborers that those automata replace.
If so automatization would be pointless.

Here in Sweden you supposedly pay some separate taxes for separate things. Pension is paid for by employers tax. Though pensions have been dramatically cut down. Also, they paid taxes under the premise that all those other things are included in that tax bill (health care). Then suddenly the money wasnt enough. You can use that empathy argument only so many times, until we look past that and see where all te money is going. Our governments irrationally decide to abandon teaching our youths writing, reading, the sciences et.c., and instead fill their education with crap like feminism, multiculturalism and socialism. Have you ever worked in education? To see how many municipal office jobs exist, who are supposed to make things better but only make them worse? How about the fact that researchers proved over a decade ago that if you bring in immigrants (refugees) under certain rules, where you give them food, housing, money et.c., they wont manage to establish themselves in the job market? So they end up being a burden, simply because they were not demanded to not be one. Go tell the pensioners this is why they paid those extra taxes. It would all make sense and would be common sense if we got to see the full bills and could choose to participate. Taxation rarely makes sense when you see what they do with the money in real life.

You didnt see that there lies economic growth in making something more effective. If you needed 100 laborers to make some product, of which final cost became $100 per unit for the buyer, and then invented some automated system that only needed a couple engineers, that products price will go down a lot. If you think youre so smart that youll be able to sell it for $100, then you will see your business fail as competitors will have an equal automated system and will be able to sell it much cheaper, profitably. So the consumer who had $100 will be able to buy this product, AND something else. So when they buy something else, are they not creating more work (=more jobs)?

[Obs]

Here in Sweden you supposedly pay some separate taxes for separate things. Pension is paid for by employers tax. Though pensions have been dramatically cut down. Also, they paid taxes under the premise that all those other things are included in that tax bill (health care). Then suddenly the money wasnt enough. You can use that empathy argument only so many times, until we look past that and see where all te money is going. Our governments irrationally decide to abandon teaching our youths writing, reading, the sciences et.c., and instead fill their education with crap like feminism, multiculturalism and socialism. Have you ever worked in education? To see how many municipal office jobs exist, who are supposed to make things better but only make them worse? How about the fact that researchers proved over a decade ago that if you bring in immigrants (refugees) under certain rules, where you give them food, housing, money et.c., they wont manage to establish themselves in the job market? So they end up being a burden, simply because they were not demanded to not be one. Go tell the pensioners this is why they paid those extra taxes. It would all make sense and would be common sense if we got to see the full bills and could choose to participate. Taxation rarely makes sense when you see what they do with the money in real life.

You didnt see that there lies economic growth in making something more effective. If you needed 100 laborers to make some product, of which final cost became $100 per unit for the buyer, and then invented some automated system that only needed a couple engineers, that products price will go down a lot. If you think youre so smart that youll be able to sell it for $100, then you will see your business fail as competitors will have an equal automated system and will be able to sell it much cheaper, profitably. So the consumer who had $100 will be able to buy this product, AND something else. So when they buy something else, are they not creating more work (=more jobs)?

Capialism, it works. The issue in the states is they try to socialize a system set up with capitalism at its core and we get this pseudosocialized society where the middle class winds up carrying the burden for the poor and the extremely wealthy use their $100,000,000 dollar yacht as a write off etc because they use it for their business.

Taxes should be flat rate straight across the board and a capitalized society should not force its citizens to pay into a forced collective where 99% of tax law is never even voted upon but rather it is written by a burea, such as is the case with the internal revenue service.
Americans DO NOT live in the most free country on earth. We live in the richest country on earth.
There is not one damn thing in this country that is not taxed or regulated at a state and federal level.
The only choices we get are to pick the next shiny terd that will fund the next burea that will create more laws and appoint the next judge that will define those laws.
Freedom in this country has been pisswatered down by socialism to a degree that is sickening.

Pseudosocialism and pisswatered are registered trademarks of obscorp and its affiliates.