HCG on TRT / cycle studies?

[Dannyboy51577]

Hey guys. Wanted to open a discussion and see if there was any info that someone could point me to. Ive read and read and read, everything i could find over the last few weeks concerning hcg use and protocol while on trt or on cycle. I was looking for studies, medical info, etc. Problem is, there isnt much out there that has actually been studied on the topic. So that led me to ask, where did the idea come from to use hcg? And who is to say there is or isnt any long term effects or problems associated with use?

Its obvious that when administered correctly, there is effects on testicular atrophy while supplementing with test. But Im trying to find anything that would be considered legitimate, peer reviewed, etc, concerning the topic and not having much luck.

Im not saying that there is or isnt a place for it in the world of aas, im saying I dont legitimately know. In my thinking, there could be discussion on both sides. I understand the positive effects, but at the same time there are no studies of long term use, lasting or permenent effects, etc.

Hcg use is fairly recent in relative terms. It hasnt been used in this circle since the beginning, there are differing opinions as to its use, and just because something works in the short term, doesnt mean there arent long term consequences.

The same could be said for other ancillaries, etc. These are drugs that were designed for a different purpose. So its not crazy to wonder, just because they work for this purpose, is there something we are missing because they were designed for a totally different purpose

Looking for legitimate feedback from anyone that may have thoughts

[ScotchGuard02]

I've not read HCG on TRT studies but I've run HCG while on TRT. Does that count? I take HCG for a while before I get a physical because when I turn my head and cough, I don't want the Doc to ask me why my nuts are the size of a peanut. I used to take HCG regularly for years but I got lazy and stopped. I didn't really notice any difference in the way I felt when I got off HCG.

[Dannyboy51577]

Thats tge thing, it doesnt appear that there are any studies or research regarding hcg while on cycle or trt at all that i can find. Im not saying it doesnt work for the intended purpose short term.
But as they say, its great when somethin works, until it doesnt.
Just trying to do my homework, and in the process figure out what makes sense and what doesnt. And it doesnt make sense to me that theres a ton of people injecting something into their body with no evidence of what it could- or couldnt- do to you long term.

[numbere]

You won't find any research studies on hcg use while cycling.

If you'd like more information on this topic in regards to TRT then do some research on Dr John Crisler, specifically the Crisler HCG Protocol.

If you have access to peer review databases then you might be able to find the following study; “My Current Best Thoughts on How to Administer TRT for Men”, published in A4M’s 2004/5 Anti-Aging Clinical Protocols.

[Dannyboy51577]

Ive read Crislers protocol and findings. I cant put much stock into them though. He doesnt share the actual studies, so they arent peer reviewed, and his business is money based, not scientific. I dont ever put much stock into any research that is based on someones profit. Im not convinced on his protocol or findings until it is backed up by actual scientific studies.

And other than that, there is only one other study i could find after a ton of research, and that is solely one study to determine hcg's effect on itt and testicular atrophy on one control group. No sort of long term study.
Am I understanding this correct- is it just accepted as norm to administer hcg as protocol with no scientific evidence of any kind to back it up? Im new to alot of this but i have the ability to do the research and im trying to find out if theres something im missing

[David LoPan]

Just look at the "Selected cases of hypogonadotropic hypogonadism in males" in Merck PI. https://www.merck.com/product/usa/pi...pregnyl_pi.pdf

[Clove1234]

I would imagine someone here will chime in on there knowledge of it. I myself haven’t found any compelling scientific evidence on it. I have a buddy who is an endocrinologist, I’m going to pick his brain about it.

The one thing I’ve noticed though to be honest. Especially being in the medical field. I find people on here, and body builders/long term AAS users generally know more than your average doctor on this subject.

[Dannyboy51577]

Thanks Big. Thats closer to what i was looking for. I found some research on use in fertility and in women by various mfr but hadnt found anything like this. And even though its from a drug company, theres legit info to be taken from it. I still have not found anything on the long term use, or relating to trt or aas, except from Crislers excerpts which im not too fond of. But this is a starting point. And im not saying pro or con, because im going to use it either way. Just seemed odd to me that, first off there are so many different opinions on use, and second that so many people have said you are stupid if you dont use it, without any actual scientific evidence of why you should

[MuscleScience]

There are a number of studies on pubmed.

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/m/pubme...cg%20for%20men

[Dannyboy51577]

Yeah Muscle, i did go through some of that research through nih and pubmed. Its some good info. Most of the research there, amd that i could find, was related to fertility. Im trying to figure out long term effects, as well as the effect of hcg on cycle or on trt, while intake of exogenous test.

Reason being, theres something i havent been able to get a grip on. Exogenous test will shut down your natural production. Your body sees the intake of test, tells your testes to stop production, testes shrink-atrophy. The introduction of hcg artificially tells the testes not to atrophy, and tricks the cells to believe there is no reason to stop and to atrophy - if i have it all correct. And dont get me wrong, im not an expert by any means.
But to me, it stands to reason that one source is telling to stop, another telling not to stop. I would think it would result in mixed signals and confusion down the line somewhere

[The Deadlifting Dog]

But to me, it stands to reason that one source is telling to stop, another telling not to stop. I would think it would result in mixed signals and confusion down the line somewhere

that is the misconception.....

there is only one signal that is sent.... LH
LH tells the body to produce testosterone.
If your body has enough testosterone then the body stops producing LH.
So there isn't mixed signals. There is either LH or no LH.
Now, hCG is a molecule that is very similar in structure to LH, it mimicks it as people say.
So when people are on steroids or TRT, there body stops producing LH.
Thus trere is no signal to produce testosterone (totally different then there being a signal to stop producing testosterone) and therefore your balls shrink.
Inject hCG and your body thinks the hCG is LH and then starts producing testosterone and your balls inflate.

[David LoPan]

Here is what I can tell you from my own personal study of just me with TRT and HCG. Ran TRT for years without it. I do have primary hypogonadism. Running TRT without HCG my balls slowly shrunk up and started to hurt. It was slow and gradual but it got to the point that I had to do something about it. I like my nuts, donnot like pain, and I like the boys to hang.

As soon as I started HCG my balls started to fill back up. I was on 200IU daily for a couple of months until they came back fully. I still run HCG at a higher level than 500IU per month due to I personally fell like they make the ball feel better, better sex life and confidence. If I had to pay cash for both Test and HCG, I would drop my TRT levels to make sure I had HCG.

So at an older age and having kids is not very important than HCG is not a must have but I would recommend it. It will take a while on low dose test before you really start to feel the effect on the boys. Hope this helps.

[Dannyboy51577]

Thanks for getting into this. I think its worthy conversation. I was actually just sent a link to research done and posted through nih that is really interesting with regard to LH, HCG, and how it all begins. Focuses alot of ovulation and pregnancy, but gives really good info concerning the process.

Deadlifting is basically correct in what he is saying. Short version, LH production tranfers to LH receptor, LHCGR and on goes the process. That is the same receptor that HCG is transferred to. They share that receptor. Also, it shows there are designated levels of hcg in the male body during pregnancy and development, then they drop off at the same time the LH levels increase.

It also shows that there are small amounts of hcg in the adult male body. But its not determined why or what role it plays. So by introducing hcg exogenously, it is up took by the receptor and transferred to the Leydig cells, telling the testes to begin producing testosterone, as well as resulting in gonadal steroidogenesis- the fullness of the testicles. Very interesting. I have alot more to research on the subject- but initial reading would lead me to believe that the introduction of hcg not only helps in the balls coming back dept, but also creates a situation of the additional natural testosterone production at the same time exogenous testosterone is being injected.

[kelkel]

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC4378070/

[Dannyboy51577]

Thanks kelkel, i had come across that one, just wasnt concerned with the fertility portion of the study. But good info in there. Im getting a much better picture of the process, effect, etc.

And maybe im wrong, but seemed to me that most people i spoke to, either on here, other places, in normal conversation etc, really dont have an idea as to why they use it- or dont- or why they should or shouldnt. I cant see just tossing some stuff into a needle and shooting it in without some sense of why .
I also see alot of recommendations that hcg should be shot subq, yet every study and even the info from Merck, who manufactures it, direct it be taken intramuscular.

Just trying to wade through all the info and do some proactive research. Its easy to come on a forum and just ask questions and have whoever tell you whatever, and never have an idea of how accurate or legitimate it is. But time has to be spent, reading and research from legitimate sources has to be done. Nothing can be taken for granted and assumed to be correct, yet tons of people seem to take this approach. Scatching my head

[kelkel]

It helps maintain testicular function (ITT and ITE) which would ultimately be lost in the presence of exogenous testosterone. It's why the top Doc's in the industry all prescribe it and use it themselves. It also helps with the cascade of downstream hormones such as Androstenedione, Dhea, etc. which can be dramatically reduced without it.

From what I've read regarding SQ or IM the difference is minimal. When it comes to Merc's recommendation of IM over SQ, remember Big Pharma still says AAS is not a performance enhancer ....

Regarding cycling with or without HCG the debate does go on. Imho it simply makes sense to maintain testicular function during a cycle as a precurser to restarting your hpta as opposed to the opposite. I always ask guys when this topic is broached is there any other body part that they'd let wither away and cease functioning if they didn't have to.

It is an interesting topic.

[ScotchGuard02]

Thats tge thing, it doesnt appear that there are any studies or research regarding hcg while on cycle or trt at all that i can find. Im not saying it doesnt work for the intended purpose short term.
But as they say, its great when somethin works, until it doesnt.
Just trying to do my homework, and in the process figure out what makes sense and what doesnt. And it doesnt make sense to me that theres a ton of people injecting something into their body with no evidence of what it could- or couldnt- do to you long term.

There may not be a lot of published clinical studies on HCG/TRT but there are a lot of empirical knowledge on this board. There is something to be said of experience.

[Dannyboy51577]

Yeah it is definitely an interesting topic Kel. And i do see your point- there isnt much put into aas research as performance enhancing l, and hasnt been since it was deemed to not be of use. A shame really.

My train of thought began, because i have been going back and forth with my doc concerning trt due to feeling pime shit basically. Labs came back, show me around 300 total with my free being in the lowest 10% of "normal" range. Im 40 so to me thats low. He isnt big on injections, and i also had vit d deficiency. Handled that, along with 2 or 3 other hoops he wanted me to jump through. He still isnt sold on injection, so prescribed me the androgel pump which would cost me alot out of pocket, so not gonna go that route. Still trying to get him to go along- and not interested in switching docs, ive been with him a long time and he handles everything just how i want, except this.
So i rounded up my own trt basically. And if he still isnt ready to prescribe on my next visit, im starting my own trt.
Which brings me back to my original point. I have gotten back to working out, good diet, etc, and mqy at some point decide to do a blast and cruise. May not, im not sure at this point. I tend to do alot of research and reading and research and reading before i jump into something. But wanted to get to the bottom of extended hcg usage- like on trt- as well as the extended use of ai's, sarms, etc before i came to any conclusions or decisions. Been researching about 6 months, between medical journals, online forums, medical research studies, etc, and starting to get sone good info
And starting to get a hold of some good

[Dannyboy51577]

Oh yeah Scothguard, no doubt. I wasnt referring to the knowledgeable group. I was referring to the newer or less informed group- which seems to be ever expanding- that hasnt done their homework. Seems to be a large number that reqd sonething online or watch sone youtube video and are perfectly content with going right along and start stuffing random things into their body without any research of their own or knowledge of whether the info they are getting is correct. Confuses me

[MuscleScience]

There may not be a lot of published clinical studies on HCG/TRT but there are a lot of empirical knowledge on this board. There is something to be said of experience.

There is a lot of case studies in the different endo journals but you have to know the literature and authors to find them. It’s going to be hard to get a HRT/HCG clinical trial approved, because there isn’t a ton of money in it like a new product. Secondly to do it at the university level, there is a lot of hoops to jump through when going into the IRB process.

My suggestion to the OP would be to scower European or Chinese journals. They typcially have a bit more autonomy on some of the controversial study types here in the US.

My suggestion would be to take HCG or clomid with your TRT to keep the boys working and full size. It works, there is little no risk. All the top TRT docs recommend it. i honestly wouldn’t go see anyone other than a TRT clinic about this. Most Endos don’t really understand or know the current state of the art. And there is STILL such a taboo for men’s aging and Low T.

[kelkel]

Well, I'd guess your doc's not sold on injections as he doesn't understand testosterone. He likes gels because they're pretty idiot proof for doctors and takes a lot of the actual thinking out of the equation. Plus the kickbacks his office probably gets for prescribing a boat load of them. I'd be sure to let him know that testosterone is testosterone and that injections are just a different delivery system and one that you prefer to try. It should be YOUR choice, not his. Hell, ease his mind and tell him you'll go with SQ injections twice per week instead of IM injections if it makes him feel more at ease. Then do whatever you want after you get the script. Of course you'll probably have to prove to him that's it's ok to inject SQ at that point, so......

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/17143361

Remember, doctors aren't trained in hormones in med school. If you can find a doc with their A4M Certification you should be in good hands, but in reality any doc that actually understands hormones can be fine. It's not rocket science like so many docs make it out to be.

https://www.a4m.com/find-a-doctor.html

[Dannyboy51577]

Yeah you hit it on the head kel. My doc doesnt like to do testosterone at all. I have a pretty good relationship with my doc, im very upfront, and so is he. I had back surgery couple yrs back- and im not much of a pill person- but every now and then it will bug me if i over do it and i just go tell him i need somethin for it, he knows im not a pill popper, so he will prescribe me whatever i want, usually some pretty heavy duty pain meds, but he knows i use them for a couple days or week if necessary, then the rest go down the toilet.
So he was very upfront with me and let me know that he isnt as knowledgeable on trt or protocol for test, so would prescribe me the pump only because i was pushing for it and it was kinda idiot proof. Problem is, im not interested in another doc, dont really have alot of time to be doing doc appts, and almost all the trt clinics around chgo dont accept insurance. Its an oit of pocket business and lit of the 12 i called, all but 1 wants the injections to be done in office. Not looking to go that route. So just gonna keep workin on my doc a while, and most likely execute my own trt treatment in the meantime. I already know if i do my own, he will still run my bloodwork and keep an eye on all that for me, so may work out that way

[Dannyboy51577]

Ur right Muscle- not only is it a taboo subject but the invention of trt and hrt is still a fairly new concept. I like to believe that in the near future, there will be more time invested into developing and researching the idea. And i only think that because its a legit problem that affects alot more guys than imagined and these trt clinics are going to continue to pop up everywhere and will make more and more money, until the mfr and insurance companies finally look at it and decide they want a piece of the pie.
It wont be because it is the right thing to do and medically necessary, it will be because there is money to be made in the field

[Dannyboy51577]

I have a question im sure some of the guys that have been around a while can answer.

I want to be clear- i am by no means an expert in anything, not nutrition, not steroids, not workout, etc. But at the same time, i am an intellectual person and i do alot of reading, alot of research, alot of thinking, alot of asking, and my nature doesnt allow me to give advice or argue a point without having a good working knowledge of a subject. I also am not so egotistical that if i am incorrect, i cant say im wrong. If i make a statement, argue a point, etc and im wrong, i will stand corrected and be a better more informed person for it. I can have a conversation, give input, absorb info, just as we did above. So after our conversation, i got in contact with a friend of a friend who is involved with the endocrine and metabolic division of a rather respected school, and discussed the same thing we were talking about so that i could gain as much knowledge as possible.

Having said that- Im scrolling around youtube yesterday and come across a video by a guy named Dylan Gemelli. So i watch it. It is contradictive to everything i have learned from what i consider reliable, respectable sources here and outside of here. And this guy is apparently highly watched on youtube, and giving what i would consider advice that would be detrimental to lesser informed people, and doing it very excitedly and convincingly. So i go to the forum that he promotes, i register, i post a thread, very straightforwardly and calmy explaining why it is that i believe his video is incorrect, pass on as much info as i can, and explain that if the desired result of the video is to properly educate and look out for the well being of the viewers, that he may want to look into this info.

I look again this morning, the site had removed my post, and apparently suspended my user name. Seriously? I guess i was mistaken to think that people would be more concerned with passing on correct information and looking out for the health and well being of the people that listen and watch this stuff. So after looking into and watching a handful of his videos-i have to ask, who the fuck is this guy, and how can some of the ridiculous shit he posts not raise eyebrows?

[Beetlegeuse]

Understanding Unapproved Use of Approved Drugs "Off Label"

If there were studies supporting it (to the AMA's satisfaction), it wouldn't be "off label" use. I have no idea what it costs to get AMA approval for a new use of an existing drug but Forbes ran an article five years ago stating it cost about $5 billion to get a new drug approved. So I rather doubt anyone is ever going to pony up for whatever the studies and trials would cost just so prescribing hCG to gym rats can be "on-label."

[kelkel]

Gemelli has made quite a name for himself and excels as a self-promoter, whether the information is correct or not.