Second Cycle Plan

[DeeCee112]

Hey looking for some feedback planning cycle 2 for this winter after I run a few weeks of peptides. Obviously way ahead but it never hurts to be prepared and keep an eye out for deals.

Week 1 - 4 Test P 100mg EOD
Week 1 - 4 Dianabol 20/40/40/40mg
Week 1 - 4 Test E 250mg/wk
Week 5 - 14 Test E 500mg/wk
Week 1 - 14 EQ 600mg/wk
Week 13 - 16 Winstrol 50/50/20/20

Test prop to elevate blood levels quicker than drop to enthate only by the time it stabilizes in week 5 for ease of injection schedule 3x a week with the EQ.
Dianabol kicker to get estrogen and strength up off the bat with the proper for a high estrogen 4 week phase.
EQ to blunt DHT side effects(acne) and hopefully combine with the large puffy muscle gains of test to make them a little leaner and harder and drop test to 400. Acne was the only side effect I experienced so I'm hoping this helps.
Winstrol to combat cortisol levels heading into pct. Should also help lean out the mass added.

Support
Week 1 - 16 HCG 500iu/wk
Week 14 - 16 Armidex 1mg/wk

PCT 17 - 20
Nolva 40/40/20/20
Clomid 75/50/25/25

Supplements and Vitamins
B complex
Multivitamin
D + K2 (Canadian winter)
BCAAs 5g intra workout, 5g post workout
Creatine monohydrate 5g per day
Magnesium
Greens

[Ephemeral]

Imo EQ helping with DHT sides is wishful thinking. EQ or not the DHT from test will be there, if you have a problem with acne then I'd just keep test low.
In week 15-17 you only have winstrol and HCG planned and you'd keep yourself shut down (both are suppressive) for little to no benefit.
Also for the same reason HCG shouldn't stretch into your PCT.
I wouldn't introduce 3 new compounds in the 2nd cycle but that's just me.
What does "lean out the mass" mean?

[GearHeaded]

Imo EQ helping with DHT sides is wishful thinking. EQ or not the DHT from test will be there, if you have a problem with acne then I'd just keep test low.

I've ran EQ with no test . thats the clearest my skin has ever been. and I had no low T symptoms . Test is not necessary . its urban legend forum bullshit that you have to run test with your cycles

In week 15-17 you only have winstrol and HCG planned and you'd keep yourself shut down (both are suppressive) for little to no benefit. .

guarantee you that if your running legit Wnstrol at 50mg per day, you'll experience way way way more benefit then anything close to what restarting natty HPTA function will ever give you . I'd take the Winstrol gains over hpta restart any day (but then again my balls have not worked in over a decade)

Also for the same reason HCG shouldn't stretch into your PCT.

HCG can most definitely be beneficial to PCT,, its really only a matter of difference of defining our terms here and what exactly does "pct" mean. should you blast HCG when blasting clomid and nolva , probably not. but that doesn't mean HCG can not be part of the PCT process in some capacity

[Ephemeral]

I've ran EQ with no test . thats the clearest my skin has ever been. and I had no low T symptoms . Test is not necessary . its urban legend forum bullshit that you have to run test with your cycles

Well, zero test is keeping it low too. :P

guarantee you that if your running legit Wnstrol at 50mg per day, you'll experience way way way more benefit then anything close to what restarting natty HPTA function will ever give you . I'd take the Winstrol gains over hpta restart any day (but then again my balls have not worked in over a decade)

You certainly know better than me so I can't argue. It just made sense to me to not run it solo without the other stuff. Though a lot of EQ and some test will be in his system during that time.

HCG can most definitely be beneficial to PCT,, its really only a matter of difference of defining our terms here and what exactly does "pct" mean. should you blast HCG when blasting clomid and nolva , probably not. but that doesn't mean HCG can not be part of the PCT process in some capacity

Afaik the proper role of HCG is to keep your balls active and healthy during the whole cycle. But since it's suppressive it defeats to purpose of a restart with nolva+clomid, as you said.

[DeeCee112]

Hey thanks for the feedback here's my reasoning:

Alot of people blast HCG in the 2 weeks leading to pct to reactivate LH and FSH. I ran it through my cycle and blasted it for a few days and my pct went pretty well, besides blood levels from the test e will still be too high for the Hpta to kick back on anyway during those two weeks. HCG at week 17 is a typo. I'll stop the HCG at least a few days before I start the Nolva/Clomid. Same as the Winny. Edited original post.

Not sure how suppressive Winstrol is so I may be overdoing it there but I can always extend a week or two more of pct if I'm not starting to feel better.

I have a friend who ran into same acne problems as me his first cycle. Second cycle not a spot of acne and all he did was add EQ and Armidex. We know estrogen is not the cause of acne so that leaves the EQ. I'm hoping for the same result
You'll also see after my high estrogen phase when I drop the test prop I'm only running 500mg of test, and may adjust it even lower. It's just easy to plan for 500mg a week when it comes in 250mg/ml! I did respond very well to test with virtually no other sides though and grew like a weed so I'll play it by ear. The acne didn't come on until later in my cycle and it was too long. I didn't find much progress in weeks 14 to 20.

3 compounds are new to me however they are all phased in separately so I'll have direct feedback especially how the esters are planned. IE if dbol is not for me I can simply stop taking it and continue on. EQ I'll get a feel for mid cycle and can abandon as well and the same goes for the Winny at the end.

[DeeCee112]

Imo EQ helping with DHT sides is wishful thinking. EQ or not the DHT from test will be there, if you have a problem with acne then I'd just keep test low.
In week 15-17 you only have winstrol and HCG planned and you'd keep yourself shut down (both are suppressive) for little to no benefit.
Also for the same reason HCG shouldn't stretch into your PCT.
I wouldn't introduce 3 new compounds in the 2nd cycle but that's just me.
What does "lean out the mass" mean?

Haha I'm not sure but come on you know what I mean. I'm expecting to be a big puffy monster like I was last cycle and hoping the Winny will help harden up the added size. Or some shit like that! Either way it will help keep cortisol down at a time when it is spiking from lowered T levels and trying to eat up all my hard earned slabs of steel.

[Ephemeral]

Alot of people blast HCG in the 2 weeks leading to pct to reactivate LH and FSH.

HCG mimics LH and makes your balls function which in turn signals your brain that you don't need more test so it doesn't need to produce LH, that's why HCG is suppressive, so those people were wrong.

I have a friend who ran into same acne problems as me his first cycle. Second cycle not a spot of acne and all he did was add EQ and Armidex. We know estrogen is not the cause of acne so that leaves the EQ. I'm hoping for the same result

Well you could be right, but it's not unheard of that someone is having acne on the 1st cycle and not having any on the 2nd (same cycle). So maybe EQ had something to do with, maybe it didn't. Someone who knows more about EQ could answer that. Estrogen is definitely a factor in acne though, so maybe it was the adex.

3 compounds are new to me however they are all phased in separately so I'll have direct feedback especially how the esters are planned. IE if dbol is not for me I can simply stop taking it and continue on. EQ I'll get a feel for mid cycle and can abandon as well and the same goes for the Winny at the end.

Yeah that makes sense. Though if u get some acne right away, then you won't know if it's from the prop or the dbol, or in what combination, so that could be a problem, but hopefully all goes well.
Btw even on 100mg a week (I'm on TRT) I had pretty bad acne, atm on 80mg I still got some, and there's at least one big cystic one at all times, that's my luck.

[DeeCee112]

You are right there but since my test levels will still be elevated for 2 weeks anyway wouldn't I want my balls to be humming still until the Nolva and clomid come in? Maybe back off the 2nd week but keep it in the first week...

Acne blocking is an added bonus, worse case scenario it doesn't help and I just reap the rest of the benefits of running EQ right and deal with acne, it'll be winter anyway.

I already know what test does for me, I don't think the ester changes anything. If I get into trouble in the first 4 weeks it will certainly be from the dbol I think.

[Windex]

- I would be running the peptides for minimum 6-8 weeks personally

- Personally I despise Winstrol, even more so when there are prior injuries. Would suggest Anavar instead or not use a second oral imo

- 1mg of Arimidex is crazy bananas. You are just going to break even on Estrogen and not be set up for growth. Run the highest dose of Testosterone that doesn't require an AI then cut it with additional EQ

- Dbol is sufficient for a kickstart but if you want to use Prop then inject every day or get Test PhenylProp for EOd injections.

[DeeCee112]

- I would be running the peptides for minimum 6-8 weeks personally

- Personally I despise Winstrol, even more so when there are prior injuries. Would suggest Anavar instead or not use a second oral imo

- 1mg of Arimidex is crazy bananas. You are just going to break even on Estrogen and not be set up for growth. Run the highest dose of Testosterone that doesn't require an AI then cut it with additional EQ

- Dbol is sufficient for a kickstart but if you want to use Prop then inject every day or get Test PhenylProp for EOd injections.

The research I did suggested no more than 4 weeks for BPC157 I can't remember why and 6 weeks for the TB500 which is my plan, just waiting on a delivery now.

My understanding of Winstrol is that the "joint pain" people experience isn't from joints drying out like they think but from lower cortisol levels which is a pain killer. So it won't actually affect my injuries but reduce my pain tolerance. I'm really hoping to be pain free by then as well. May be off here on it though and I'll look into Var. Either or we'll see what works for me, maybe I'll have both on hand.

Dude that is exactly my plan! Tesst prop combined with test E at the start and if it's going well just maintain both through the cycle at 100mg of prop eod and 500mg of enanthate a week, the 1mg armidex is ONLY during last couple weeks of cycle and heading into pct to lower estrogen so that my estrogen isnt sky high when my test is plummeting. I screwed up on the weeks there too week 12 is too early I'll be starting it closer to week 14. My pct plan executed very well and this was part of it. I did not need an AI during cycle and will use Nolva at 10 or 20mg if some gyno rears, but I am pretty lean and I think I handle high estrogen well.

[DeeCee112]

I hadn't heard of phenylprop thanks I'll look into it.

[i_SLAM_cougars]

I've ran EQ with no test . thats the clearest my skin has ever been. and I had no low T symptoms . Test is not necessary . its urban legend forum bullshit that you have to run test with your cycle

I’d like to expand upon this a little bit, because it interests me.

If you aren’t running test with your cycle, would you definitely run a testosterone derived steroid (such as EQ)? Or would a 19 NOR or DHT, be alright as well?

[AR's King Silabolin]

I def would start with test e then switch to p.
This summer i started with sus, then test e. I knew of the esterproblem, but i was hoping the slow ones in sus would work until test e started.
But No.
For u it will be worse. It will give u weeks with low test feelings cause the p is out of your body way before the testosterone enanthate kicks in.

Sent fra min BLA-L29 via Tapatalk

[Family_guy]

Hey thanks for the feedback here's my reasoning:

Alot of people blast HCG in the 2 weeks leading to pct to reactivate LH and FSH. I ran it through my cycle and blasted it for a few days and my pct went pretty well, besides blood levels from the test e will still be too high for the Hpta to kick back on anyway during those two weeks. HCG at week 17 is a typo. I'll stop the HCG at least a few days before I start the Nolva/Clomid. Same as the Winny. Edited original post.

Not sure how suppressive Winstrol is so I may be overdoing it there but I can always extend a week or two more of pct if I'm not starting to feel better.

I have a friend who ran into same acne problems as me his first cycle. Second cycle not a spot of acne and all he did was add EQ and Armidex. We know estrogen is not the cause of acne so that leaves the EQ. I'm hoping for the same result
You'll also see after my high estrogen phase when I drop the test prop I'm only running 500mg of test, and may adjust it even lower. It's just easy to plan for 500mg a week when it comes in 250mg/ml! I did respond very well to test with virtually no other sides though and grew like a weed so I'll play it by ear. The acne didn't come on until later in my cycle and it was too long. I didn't find much progress in weeks 14 to 20.

3 compounds are new to me however they are all phased in separately so I'll have direct feedback especially how the esters are planned. IE if dbol is not for me I can simply stop taking it and continue on. EQ I'll get a feel for mid cycle and can abandon as well and the same goes for the Winny at the end.

That’s exactly what I’ve been saying! You add in one compound at a time and it’s easy to know what’s doing what! Lol

[Family_guy]

Hey looking for some feedback planning cycle 2 for this winter after I run a few weeks of peptides. Obviously way ahead but it never hurts to be prepared and keep an eye out for deals.

Week 1 - 4 Test P 100mg EOD
Week 1 - 4 Dianabol 20/40/40/40mg
Week 1 - 4 Test E 250mg/wk
Week 5 - 14 Test E 500mg/wk
Week 1 - 14 EQ 600mg/wk
Week 13 - 16 Winstrol 50/50/20/20

Test prop to elevate blood levels quicker than drop to enthate only by the time it stabilizes in week 5 for ease of injection schedule 3x a week with the EQ.
Dianabol kicker to get estrogen and strength up off the bat with the proper for a high estrogen 4 week phase.
EQ to blunt DHT side effects(acne) and hopefully combine with the large puffy muscle gains of test to make them a little leaner and harder and drop test to 400. Acne was the only side effect I experienced so I'm hoping this helps.
Winstrol to combat cortisol levels heading into pct. Should also help lean out the mass added.

Support
Week 1 - 16 HCG 500iu/wk
Week 14 - 16 Armidex 1mg/wk

PCT 17 - 20
Nolva 40/40/20/20
Clomid 75/50/25/25

Supplements and Vitamins
B complex
Multivitamin
D + K2 (Canadian winter)
BCAAs 5g intra workout, 5g post workout
Creatine monohydrate 5g per day
Magnesium
Greens

Eq has such a long half life I think you might want to either drop the EQ earlier or wait on your pct longer. I read some wheee that you want to wait 4 half life’s of the longest ester to start PCT. so if EQ has a half life of about 14 days(?) then that would mean wait 2 months for pct.

600mg becomes 300 after 14 days
300-> 150mg another 14 days
150-> 75 another 14 days
75-> 37.5 14 more days.

[DeeCee112]

Eq has such a long half life I think you might want to either drop the EQ earlier or wait on your pct longer. I read some wheee that you want to wait 4 half life’s of the longest ester to start PCT. so if EQ has a half life of about 14 days(?) then that would mean wait 2 months for pct.

600mg becomes 300 after 14 days
300-> 150mg another 14 days
150-> 75 another 14 days
75-> 37.5 14 more days.

Thanks FG you are right about the longer half life but I think missed the mark on the calculation. I don't think testosterone levels will be elevated the same even though EQ levels will be in your blood for up to a year and a half I've read which is what alot of baseball players get pinched on, whether via directly taking it or it being contaminated in some other gear they take.

I've revised the cycle below although looking overly complex everything has a reason and can easily be subbed out or reduced without drastically affecting the cycle.

[DeeCee112]

Week 1 - 16 Test P 100mg EOD
Week 1 - 4 Dianabol 20/40/40/40mg
Week 1 - 16 Test E 250mg/wk
Week 1 - 14 EQ 600mg/wk
Week 15 - 18 Winstrol or Anavar 50/50/20/20

Week 1 - 17 HCG 500iu/wk
Week 16 - 18 Armidex 1mg/wk
Week 19 - 22 Nolva/Clomid

Long and Short Ester Test to keep blood levels high right off the bat and throughout. Extensive injections may drive me to drop the prop earlier, well see.

Dianabol kicker To skyrocket estrogen and test right out the gate. I expect to throw on a ton of weight quickly which will help keep my joints in better shape for the strength increases and heavy ass training.

EQ For added benefit of as mentioned bunting acne, increasing appetite because I have a Rocking metabolism and need to eat a million cals a day and increasing anabolic load with a lower androgen rating for the mid cycle phase. The test prop can be dropped anytime now if I feel the need to lower estrogen levels and with its short half life I'll get quick relief or continue running it for the added testosterone if all is well. Drop EQ 2 weeks before the test enanthate to give it a month to clear before pct.

Winny Again to help blunt cortisol and lower shbg in the period I'm waiting for the enanthate ester to clear. It will help retain gained muscle during this period ideally. Theory is test levels will still be elevated in these weeks anyway so my HPTA will not be looking to fire up and with Winstrol half life of 8hrs when dropped it should clear quickly enough for when the Nolva and clomid get brought in to kick the HPTA up. As Windex suggested I'll grab Anavar as well in case the Winny doesn't sit well with me but I'd like to give it a shot at least. I will likely drop it a 3 or 4 days prior to first dose of nolva/clomid.

HCG and Armidex Again my theory is that in the two weeks after last testosterone injection blood levels are elevated anyway while you are waiting for the enanthate ester to diminish. HCG has a half life of roughly 2.3days and I've read a study showing after 10 days only 10% was found. This is my reasoning for continuing it for an additional week after my last injection - help keep test levels up to preserve muscle while I'm waiting for the enanthate to clear. 2nd week everything is out except low does Armidex likely down to .5 for the week to keep from heading into PCT with low test high e2.

The PCT theory is trying to time it so that I have beneficial compounds with short half lives kicking around while the enanthate clear as close as possible so that I'm not lingering around with low test and high e2 waiting for it to clear. I want it to go as short a time as possible between low test levels to the introduction of clomid and Nolva that will kick my natural production back in. Maybe I'm off on this and the two weeks is key, but my thought is why would your HPTA even think about turning back on if test levels are still elevated? Worse case scenario I will run an extra week or two with lower dose nolva/clomid at the back end.

Thanks for the input everyone appreciate it!

[jolter604]

I love to front load with the test prop as well u get so much more out of the run also I would just keep dbol at 40 from the start unless u r prone to gyno.


FOOD IS EVERYTHING

[GearHeaded]

I’d like to expand upon this a little bit, because it interests me.

If you aren’t running test with your cycle, would you definitely run a testosterone derived steroid (such as EQ)? Or would would would a 19 NOR or DHT, be alright as well?

I've been on TRT for 10 years.. but my last 'cruise' I ran no test at all for months. I just ran EQ as my test (derivative) and I ran low dose Tren, 150mg a week, as my androgen, and 20mg of Dbol per day as my estrogen. I felt great doing that and like I said I had no DHT sides and my skin was as clear as its ever been. zero flushing, acne, or water retention.. my libido and performance were through the roof without test.
test is not needed if your AAS is properly stacked. you just need to make sure to account for the androgen receptor, androgen load, and estrogen. so running something like Deca only with no test will only get you so far because eventually your estrogen levels will crash and thus so will your dick, plus you have zero androgenic effects from deca.
so if you run a no test cycle you have to have other compounds to make up for what test does

[jolter604]

I've been on TRT for 10 years.. but my last 'cruise' I ran no test at all for months. I just ran EQ as my test (derivative) and I ran low dose Tren, 150mg a week, as my androgen, and 20mg of Dbol per day as my estrogen. I felt great doing that and like I said I had no DHT sides and my skin was as clear as its ever been. zero flushing, acne, or water retention.. my libido and performance were through the roof without test.
test is not needed if your AAS is properly stacked. you just need to make sure to account for the androgen receptor, androgen load, and estrogen. so running something like Deca only with no test will only get you so far because eventually your estrogen levels will crash and thus so will your dick, plus you have zero androgenic effects from deca.
so if you run a no test cycle you have to have other compounds to make up for what test does

Man u made a break threw with this


FOOD IS EVERYTHING

[DeeCee112]

Thanks for the feedback jolter Im hoping for same results and yeah I learned alot about diet on my first run. I'm likely going to hire someone to help me with it this time... Edit just realized the food thing is your signature lol

Here's the summaries I put together for compound breakdown and pct breakdown. I go through a notebook a month at work as I write everything down.

Looking for a suggestion on dosages for liver protection supplements. I know what the bottle says for therapeutic but how much higher is suggested while running orals?
NAC
Milk Thistle
Also looking to input on my other vitamin and supplement dosages if they are on point or anything else is missing. *looking at you Windex*

[i_SLAM_cougars]

I've been on TRT for 10 years.. but my last 'cruise' I ran no test at all for months. I just ran EQ as my test (derivative) and I ran low dose Tren, 150mg a week, as my androgen, and 20mg of Dbol per day as my estrogen. I felt great doing that and like I said I had no DHT sides and my skin was as clear as its ever been. zero flushing, acne, or water retention.. my libido and performance were through the roof without test.
test is not needed if your AAS is properly stacked. you just need to make sure to account for the androgen receptor, androgen load, and estrogen. so running something like Deca only with no test will only get you so far because eventually your estrogen levels will crash and thus so will your dick, plus you have zero androgenic effects from deca.
so if you run a no test cycle you have to have other compounds to make up for what test does

Mhmm.. I may try this.
Replace the EQ with DHB because I feel it is superior to EQ and Test.

Im running Tren along side 250mg of Test a week right now and I feel amazing so the low dose Tren is here to stay...

I need an opinion on how long you can actually run dbol for because convention wisdom says 4-8 weeks, but I’ll run 20mg pre workout... well... a lot. Granted that’s not EVERY day, but it’s probably 4 days 3-4 days a week.

[GearHeaded]

Man u made a break threw with this

I just went against the norm and experimented on myself . too many guys believe basic bro science bs without actually trying things for themselves. the idea that you have to run test with every cycle you do has been touted as gospel for years but no one ever thought to test it out and see if its true.

[Windex]

I did 4 or 5 weeks of peptides and I regretted not going longer - now I'm going to run a protocol a second time around as a result.

If you intend on using Deca or NPP in the next year I would hop on Glucosamine Chondroitin +Chondroitin Sulfate + MSM now.

Milk thistle from my own experience was/is useless but it could just be me. I was originally going to go with NAC/TUDCA but am going to try Udoxyl and injectable Glutathione instead.

[Test Monsterone]

To add my 2 cents:

I ran prop + EQ on my last cycle. Prop only the first month, and then EQ for another month. Had acne all over my back and shoulders throughout and after the cycle. I have acne regardless of steroids, so for me, EQ did not help with the acne, it increased it even after stopping prop.

DHB, I discovered, is crazy expensive. From what I've read, it's almost the same as EQ... in that it doesn't do much for many people. EQ only made my veins pop out and then toward the end of the cycle I was really lethargic. I saw no size gains, no cuts, no improvement overall. So for me, taking DHB, at 3x the price of testosterone, seemed like a dumb idea.

[Family_guy]

To add my 2 cents:

I ran prop + EQ on my last cycle. Prop only the first month, and then EQ for another month. Had acne all over my back and shoulders throughout and after the cycle. I have acne regardless of steroids, so for me, EQ did not help with the acne, it increased it even after stopping prop.

DHB, I discovered, is crazy expensive. From what I've read, it's almost the same as EQ... in that it doesn't do much for many people. EQ only made my veins pop out and then toward the end of the cycle I was really lethargic. I saw no size gains, no cuts, no improvement overall. So for me, taking DHB, at 3x the price of testosterone, seemed like a dumb idea.

I loved DHB! It was sorta like EQ except it’s androgenic for sure. I looked so much harder on DHB. I’d say it’s worth it. Add the DHB!!

[Family_guy]

Thanks for the feedback jolter Im hoping for same results and yeah I learned alot about diet on my first run. I'm likely going to hire someone to help me with it this time... Edit just realized the food thing is your signature lol

Here's the summaries I put together for compound breakdown and pct breakdown. I go through a notebook a month at work as I write everything down.

Looking for a suggestion on dosages for liver protection supplements. I know what the bottle says for therapeutic but how much higher is suggested while running orals?
NAC
Milk Thistle
Also looking to input on my other vitamin and supplement dosages if they are on point or anything else is missing. *looking at you Windex*

I love your planning. Very well thought out!

[DeeCee112]

Well you could be right, but it's not unheard of that someone is having acne on the 1st cycle and not having any on the 2nd (same cycle). So maybe EQ had something to do with, maybe it didn't. Someone who knows more about EQ could answer that. Estrogen is definitely a factor in acne though, so maybe it was the adex.

So I've been doing some reading and mind you I don't have medical articles or studies but every single other article or reference to hormonal acne I've read has pointed to progesterone and testosterone stimulating the sebaceous glands to secreet more sebum. This is for women and men. Nothing I read pointed to the rise of estrogen in female puberty as a culprit even though it would be easy to do so considering estrogen is a females main dominant hormone and elevated much higher than testosterone during this period.

In fact some references lowered estrogen during menopause to possibly be a contributing factor to skin issues common in women during menopause.

"Researchers note that women who experience acne around menopause usually have androgen levels within the normal range, but falling estrogen levels.

It may be this imbalance that gives rise to acne flares. As hormone reach a "tipping point," the new hormonal ratios lead to additional stimulation of the sebaceous glands, triggering outbreaks"

This statement from an article at medicalnewstoday suggests hormonal imbalance could be an factor. This leads me to think that lowering estrogen with the use of an AI while testosterone is supra physiological could potentially make acne worse.

Anywho some food for thought again I don't have much studies but if anyone else does or please share.

[DeeCee112]

I love your planning. Very well thought out!

Thanks FG, I thought so myself! None of this is original thinking from me it is cobbled together from reading members experiences and cycle Layouts and threads on this board.