beginning of the rise of the anti-Christ upon the nations

[Obs]

I do not think it is gone for the common man. Perhaps we need some new fire to reignite the idea of that dream, but I do not believe it is gone. I do think the investment, and I do not just mean money, is much higher now, and one must be able to see the big picture in a much clearer way than previously. The American dream, for me, only ever meant that you could, without judgment, live the life of your choosing.

Yet we are the most micromanaged country on earth.
The richest as well.

Its because we got all the hard working cowboys to believe this is the only way and we created sheep from patriots.

Trump.
Fucking Donald Trump is our president.

Oh
... He didn't want the job though. He did this for us!

I shit you not that is what most conservatives say.


The people that settled this country just wanted to be left alone. Until a leader got the sheep to follow by playing on their desires.

Boom...
Declaration of independence.
Thank you forefathers.

We are guaranteed to be free under the bill of rights!

Oh... Except for the amendment to protect us.

Oh and 7000 more.
No probs...

People are goddamn blind.

"We gotta do something about "x".
20 new laws and a burea to oversee

Your welcome.
Merica! Freest county in the world.

I believe in me.
I'm just a criminal.
I do what I want and live free until they take me away.

They invented about 5 million ways to do just that.
People are sheep and the average man can't take a piss without wetting the seat, let alone choose his destiny.

Someone has to keep these retarded motherfuckers under control.

Yeay government.

"Donald trump is a business man,he will fix the mess!"

Lmfao!
I actually had people say this to me!

#1 rule of business

Make your employees think you care about them.

So many guys reading this actually think their boss gives a fuck about them rather than uses them.

You just can't get a fking commoner to do anything but follow and so they are doomed to be socialists and repeat history again and again.

[jstone]

Most religions are very similar because man created them. When your trying to control a population as another human its hard, but if you say there is an all powerful god who will condemn you if you dont follow his laws. Controlling a large chunk of that population just got easier. The laws set forth in most religions, are things men care about. Not an all powerful god who created everything.

A lot of these religions pop up during times of great suffering, and when the ruling class needed to control populations. Why would a god insist you worship him to have ever lasting life? People also say the bible is the word of god, but its not. Its the word of men. If it was the word of an all powerful god why would we need a old, and new testament. An all powerful god would have gotten everything right the first time.

There is an estimated 200 biilion known galaxies, and this is what we beleive due to the technology we have now. This is all we can see with our telescopes. So as our telescopes get better we will find more. So were the only intelligent life forms in 200 billion galaxy's. The chances of that are so astronomical its not even funny. The first time they find life elshwere most religions are instantly proven to be false.

I personally dont care if your religous or not, and would never try to change that. Sometimes you have to think and not blindly believe in something with no proof. This is the same as believing in santa clause when your a kid. You know he is real, and you believe it with every fiber of your being. The sad truth is santa claus as we are told as children isnt real.

[Obs]

Most religions are very similar because man created them. When your trying to control a population as another human its hard, but if you say there is an all powerful god who will condemn you if you dont follow his laws. Controlling a large chunk of that population just got easier. The laws set forth in most religions, are things men care about. Not an all powerful god who created everything.

A lot of these religions pop up during times of great suffering, and when the ruling class needed to control populations. Why would a god insist you worship him to have ever lasting life? People also say the bible is the word of god, but its not. Its the word of men. If it was the word of an all powerful god why would we need a old, and new testament. An all powerful god would have gotten everything right the first time.

There is an estimated 200 biilion known galaxies, and this is what we beleive due to the technology we have now. This is all we can see with our telescopes. So as our telescopes get better we will find more. So were the only intelligent life forms in 200 billion galaxy's. The chances of that are so astronomical its not even funny. The first time they find life elshwere most religions are instantly proven to be false.

I personally dont care if your religous or not, and would never try to change that. Sometimes you have to think and not blindly believe in something with no proof. This is the same as believing in santa clause when your a kid. You know he is real, and you believe it with every fiber of your being. The sad truth is santa claus as we are told as children isnt real.

Mathhematically there has to be a higher power.

We only recently proved quantum ebtanglement but we now know a connection far beyond the speed of light exists. Ape science is still retarded but fact is something is and always was.

0+0 does not = universe.
"Nothing" in and of itself cannot exist and beyond that we are a bunch of retarded apes assuming shit as fact that is disproven daily.

The closest explanation I have seen is the CTMU by Chris Langan.

Atheists are the most gullable of apes.
They actually believe the shit they know that is disproven every day.

Now... Religion is an entirely different story.
It is synonymous with politics.

Get the sheep to follow is the name of the game.

The laws of physics cannot exist without one another. Such a premise guarantees precognition.

[crazy_rocks]

You're a wise guy,


Many think this is a crazy idea, but it's not. They are looking to start the anti-christ government.

You might find this interesting. It's about the cult, The Sons of the Fallen. They believe they have the spear of destiny from Christs crucifixion and they think it will help them establish the Antichrist's order. This is from the series Brad meltzer's Decoded.

[jstone]

Mathhematically there has to be a higher power.

We only recently proved quantum ebtanglement but we now know a connection far beyond the speed of light exists. Ape science is still retarded but fact is something is and always was.

0+0 does not = universe.
"Nothing" in and of itself cannot exist and beyond that we are a bunch of retarded apes assuming shit as fact that is disproven daily.

The closest explanation I have seen is the CTMU by Chris Langan.

Atheists are the most gullable of apes.
They actually believe the shit they know that is disproven every day.

Now... Religion is an entirely different story.
It is synonymous with politics.

Get the sheep to follow is the name of the game.

The laws of physics cannot exist without one another. Such a premise guarantees precognition.

Higher power 100% no doubt there is one. Religion is just stories put together by men to enslave them.

[GearHeaded]

People also say the bible is the word of god, but its not. Its the word of men. If it was the word of an all powerful god why would we need a old, and new testament. An all powerful god would have gotten everything right the first time..

not to pick shit.. just pointing out , this statement is evidence that you have no understanding of "the Bible" or why 'the words of men' created an old and a New Testament to begin with.

its not like the Old Testament got things wrong and a New Testament was needed lol . its all ONE story from beginning to end, the story of the history of Israel. thats it.

heres an analogy . its like a story about a man , the Old Testament is his life growing up as a child and then becoming a man and being single. the New Testament is simply the continuation of the story of that same man after having met his spouse and getting married.
there is not right or wrong with one half of the story compared to another.

from beginning to end, genesis to revelation, the Bible is just simply the story and history of Israel and their God and messiah, and how that history was to become a blessing and hope to all other nations and people (which it has, as Christendom has spread throughout the world and built empires and civilizations and spread to every culture on earth).

of course you don't have to believe in that 'story' or believe in Israels God.. but what can't be denied is that story is rooted in history as historical fact and has changed the face of the world forever.
if it wasn't for this 'bible' and this religion you likely wouldn't be here today.. you don't have to believe in its doctrines and faith, but you can't deny its impact on the world.
500 years ago America was a barren waste land. now there are a million Christian churches spread throughout the land and a church on every street corner, a bible in every hotel room and millions of bibles in millions of household residences.
when the apostles taught 2000 years ago , when there were only a handful of faithful believers , that this 'doctrine' (teaching of christ) was going to spread throughout the whole world and fill and encompass every part of earth and impact every culture and society..
they were pretty much right.

again, wither you believe the 'faith' itself or not , you can't deny the fact that what was told to the apostles 2000 years ago has come to fruition and changed the world .
wither you consider it the work of god, or something else.. Cleary something or someone did 'get it right' the first time, and completely changed and impacted the world.

[Fluidic Kimbo]

The true genius of Christianity is totally missed by some of the largest groups (e.g. Catholics, Mormons).

If you think that good people go to heaven, and bad people go to hell, then you've totally missed the whole point of Christianity.

In the third chapter of John's gospel, John explains clearly what a person must do to get into heaven. In and around the 16th verse.

It's possible to be a true Christian and to only have John's gospel as your entire scripture. It's the most important book of the Bible.

[almostgone]

@almostgone


Do you delete this topic for me?


I don't want to discuss religion with anyone here.
Why will they think I'm a bore

Davi, as long as it doesn't get out of hand and people can respect each other, this is a perfect topic for the lounge.

Gearheaded and I may disagree about the current location of the Antichrist; personally I think he is being held back by the archangel Michael until the 6th trump, 6th seal, and 6th vial align. However, I'd honestly think he and I could discuss it respectfully if we wanted to and at the end of the day still be friends.

[almostgone]

Just a quick comment before I go back to work. I think the countdown clock was set when Israel was granted statehood in 1947/1948.

[GearHeaded]

Gearheaded and I may disagree about the current location of the Antichrist; personally I think he is being held back by the archangel Michael until the 6th trump, 6th seal, and 6th vial align. However, I'd honestly think he and I could discuss it respectfully if we wanted to and at the end of the day still be friends.

I like it .
so Pauls man of lawlessness in 2thessalonians 2 is being held back from being revealed by the "restrainer" , which in your view point is the Arch Angel Michael (some people think the Holy Spirit is the restrainer and will be removed from the world one day just before the revelation of anti christ).

I like the symbolism of the Arch Angel Michael being the restrainer rather then the Holy Spirit.. I however would take a first century interpretation of these passages, as Paul was speaking directly to the Thessalonians about what was going to happen soon at the end of the jewish age in THEIR day (not 2000+ years later).
and I would hold to the idea that the symbolism of Michael as displayed in the Old Testament is directly related to the work of Christ as the "Prince of his People".. Michael is a "type" of Christ and symbolizes the 'warrior prince' work that christ was to accomplish in both his first coming and the Parousia, ie, second coming (which in my view happened 40 years after the first coming).

interesting discussions ether way though

[GearHeaded]

Just a quick comment before I go back to work. I think the countdown clock was set when Israel was granted statehood in 1947/1948.

yes this is a common thought in dispensational theology .. has a lot to do with the 'branching back in' of the leaves back into its original tree, as Paul speaks of in Romans. the times of the gentiles have been, and they have been being branched into the rood tree , and Israel will be rooted back in as well.

I personally don't hold to this dispensational view point , but I've read the arguments and am familiar with them

[GearHeaded]

I've got a pretty extensive theology library at home. and yes I've read most all of these books over the years


I like to consider myself a little more well versed then just being a "steriod guru meat head"

[almostgone]

I like it .
so Pauls man of lawlessness in 2thessalonians 2 is being held back from being revealed by the "restrainer" , which in your view point is the Arch Angel Michael (some people think the Holy Spirit is the restrainer and will be removed from the world one day just before the revelation of anti christ).

I like the symbolism of the Arch Angel Michael being the restrainer rather then the Holy Spirit.. I however would take a first century interpretation of these passages, as Paul was speaking directly to the Thessalonians about what was going to happen soon at the end of the jewish age in THEIR day (not 2000+ years later).
and I would hold to the idea that the symbolism of Michael as displayed in the Old Testament is directly related to the work of Christ as the "Prince of his People".. Michael is a "type" of Christ and symbolizes the 'warrior prince' work that christ was to accomplish in both his first coming and the Parousia, ie, second coming (which in my view happened 40 years after the first coming).

interesting discussions ether way though

Yes sir!

In 2 Thessalonians verses 2-4 Paul cautions that they not be deceived by his first letter regarding the end of things or Christ's return.

2 That ye be not soon shaken in mind, or be troubled, neither by spirit, nor by word, nor by letter as from us, as that the day of Christ is at hand.

3 Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition;

4 Who opposeth and exalteth himself above all that is called God, or that is worshipped; so that he as God sitteth in the temple of God, shewing himself that he is God.

In verse 3, it refers to the son of perdition which literally means to be destroyed or destruction. As much as I have looked and read, only one entity has identified by name to permanent destruction..Satan.

I feel the king of Tyre in Ezekiel 28:18-19 is a type for Satan and also he is named in Romans 6:23 and Revelations 20:7-10.
The fallen angels are held in chains into judgement in Jude verses 6 and 7, but they aren't specifically named.

That's one reason I think Matthew 24 and particularly 24:6 are so important, (although the entirety of the Word is equally important) Christ says:

And ye shall hear of wars and rumours of wars: see that ye be not troubled: for all these things must come to pass, but the end is not yet.


To my simple, Southern mind if you don't see wars and conflict as the end, what could signal the time draws short? Peace, peace, peace.

Now, personally I feel that when the Antichrist hits the scene claiming to be Christ he'll be deceiving so many people with his little fake miracles and getting people to follow him, he'll be organizing "peace", and people will jump on his bandwagon.

LOL, I guess you can see I don't believe in the Rapture doctrine, GH, especially since the word isn't a part of any manuscript.
I'm a firm believer the true Christ returns at the 7th trump, it will occur as stated in 1 Corinthians 15:52.


Is it interesting stuff? You bet buddy!!!!


Edit: Just want to state my beliefs are just that, my beliefs, and aren't meant as an attack or to demean someone of different beliefs.

I'm just a poor Southern guy that studies when I can squeeze it in. I don't have lots of fancy tools at my disposal. I just use a KJV, a Strong's Concordance, and a very complete set of the the Green's Interlinear Bible, although I do have a decent collection of other Bibles. Just those few tools can give you a lifetime of material to aid you in you studies.

Now, I will say I have a rather twisted sense of humor at times, somewhat long hair, and a decent amount of ink, so I may not fit into the view of what many people think is a Christian.

[almostgone]

@almostgone


Do you delete this topic for me?


I don't want to discuss religion with anyone here.
Why will they think I'm a bore

See, Davi. GH and I disagreed on a couple of points, but we agree to disagree and keep on going.

Feel free to post up topics for discussion that aren't a violation of the rules. Remember, everyone has a voice and a right to be heard ( as long as we keep it respectful) and
also remember disagreementt doesn't equate to dislike.

[almostgone]

Ok, guys, back to work for me.

GH, enjoyed the conversation, man!

[GearHeaded]

just for anyone interested .. heres some more info you can read. this is an article that I wrote years ago. its an exegesis of the gospel of Matthew chapter 24, and Jesus' sermon regarding the "end of days" and his "second coming" (as well as the 'falling away' and the anti christ etc..).
its fairly long so I will have to paste it in a few posts..

____________

Introduction



Matthew records Jesus’ Olivet Discourse in the twenty fourth chapter of his gospel. This chapter is a conclusion to several of the previous chapters. Because of this, it is difficult to write an exegetical work with convincing arguments on chapter twenty four without first establishing the proper exegesis of the previous chapters. Due to the purpose and nature of this short work an exegetical analysis of these several chapters is not possible. This introduction will serve the purpose of briefly bringing into view the teachings of Jesus that relate to and precede the Olivet Discourse.



Matthew does not present entirely new material in the twenty fourth chapter of his gospel; rather he records a climactic discourse of much of what Jesus had already taught. This discourse is especially related to Jesus’ teachings after his triumphal entry into Jerusalem. The teachings of Jesus take a slight turn in emphasis once he enters Jerusalem. Readers of the gospel should take careful notice how much emphasis Jesus places upon Jerusalem and the Jews. Jesus almost specifically teaches about the kingdom of God as it relates to them. The following is a list of events that coincide with these teachings:



Cursing the fig tree for not bearing fruit (a picture of Israel)
Jesus teaches parables against the Pharisees
Jesus cleanses the temple and condemns the people for making it a market
The Jewish leaders officially challenge Jesus
Jesus is tested with questions by the Pharisees, Scribes, and Lawyers
There are attempts to trap Jesus in his teaching
Jesus pronounces seven woes against the Jewish leaders
The temple is pronounced desolate
Jesus leaves the temple and foretells its destruction


Some of the scriptures preceding Mathew 24 which need to be kept in mind are: Jesus’ parable of the wedding feast when those who were invited to the wedding feast did not come and it is said “But when the king heard about it, he was furious; and he sent out his armies, destroyed those murderers, and burned up their city” (Matt 22:7).



Jesus’ parable of the vineyard where the men to whom it was given to tend ended up killing the owners son, and Jesus asks what the owner will do to those men and it is said “He will destroy those wicked men miserably, and lease his vineyard to other vinedressers who will render to him the fruits in their seasons” (Matt 21:41). Also, when Jesus pronounces the final judgment against Jerusalem and the Jews when he states:



How can you escape the condemnation of hell? Therefore, indeed, I send you prophets, wise men, and scribes: some of them you will kill and crucify, and some of them you will scourge in your synagogues and persecute from city to city, that on you may come all the righteous blood shed on the earth. . . . Assuredly, I say to you, all these things will come upon this generation. O Jerusalem, Jerusalem . . .” (Matt 23:33-37)


The final judgment against apostate Israel and Jerusalem is clearly taught in these and other like scriptures. These judgment pronouncements are foundational to the exegesis of Matthew 24 where Jesus describes the judgment’s details. Jesus’ Olivet discourse is the climactic description of all he had taught concerning the judgment that was to come upon that generation and their city.

[GearHeaded]

Matthew, having previously written about Jesus’ judgment pronouncements against apostate Israel and Jerusalem, goes on in Matthew 24 to record the sign
of that judgment.



Then Jesus went out and departed from the temple, and His disciples came up to show Him the buildings of the temple. And Jesus said to them, “Do you not see all these things? Assuredly, I say to you, not one stone shall be left here upon another, that shall not be thrown down” (Matt 24:1-2 NKJV).



The temple is going to be utterly destroyed to the point that not one stone will be left upon another. This statement becomes a reality when the Romans come and destroy the temple in the year 70 AD; deliberately leveling it stone by stone after it had been burned by fire. Jesus, being the long awaited Jewish Messiah, the restorer and redeemer of Israel, the King of Judah, has just prophesied absolute destruction rather than restoration. This “house of God” is going to be thrown down, and the messiah is the one who prophesies it; not the foretelling of the future, but the forth telling of an action that he himself will accomplish. The destruction of the temple is thus a part of the messiah’s coming and ministry. His establishing the kingdom of God universal has much to do with destruction of the temple, and this prompts the surprised disciples to question him about it.



Now as He sat on the Mount of Olives, the disciples came to Him privately, saying, “Tell us; when will these things be? And what will be the sign of your coming, and of the end of the age?” (Matt 24:3 NKJV)



The first thing the reader of the gospel should do when desiring to come to a sound exegesis of this scripture, and those which shortly follow, is to dismiss all presuppositions as to what the coming (or second coming) of Jesus is. The disciples themselves did not have any presuppositions towards a second coming of Christ because they had no formulated doctrine of a second coming. The readers should therefore put themselves in the place of the disciples when grappling with this topic. What did the disciples mean when asking Jesus about his coming?

What can be known from the disciples question is that they clearly understood from Jesus’ teachings that: One, the temple was going to be destroyed. Two, a new age was going to be ushered in. Three, in anticipating that Jesus truly was the messiah, that he was going to make himself known (reveal himself) to the world in power and glory. This “coming” (presenting/revealing) is what the disciples were asking about. The disciples did not have any doctrinal formulations that Jesus was going to ascend to heaven and then return to earth some 2000 plus years later. On the contrary Jesus taught them that:



“Assuredly, I say to you, there are some standing here who shall not taste death till they see the Son of Man coming in His kingdom” (Matt 16:28), and “For assuredly, I say to you, you will not have gone through the cities of Israel before the Son of Man comes” (Matt 10:23). Thus the coming (i.e., the revelation) of Jesus as the proven Christ, and the coming of his kingdom, was anticipated by the disciples themselves.



And Jesus answered and said to them: “Take heed that no one deceives you. For many will come in my name, saying, ‘I am the Christ,’ and will deceive many. And you will hear of wars and rumors of wars. See that you are not troubled; for all these things must come to pass, but the end is not yet. For nation will rise against nation, and kingdom against kingdom. And there will be famines, pestilences, and earthquakes in various places. All these are the beginning of sorrows. (Matt 24:4-8 NKJV)



Jesus’ first concern in answering the question posed to him was the disciple’s safety. He warned them not to be deceived. He tells them that many will come and say that they are the Christ. There were a great many of false messiahs leading up to the destruction of Jerusalem. Luke, in the book of Acts, tells us of false messiahs who came and history also gives many examples of false messiahs who “deceived many” in those days. There were so many false messiahs in those days that under the Roman procuratorship of Felix they were being apprehended and executed every day. Due to the rise of Jewish patriotism, the sect of the zealots, and the tightening grip of Rome upon Judea, messiah fever had taken place.

From the biblical text itself the reader can also infer several other causes for the rise of multiple messiahs. During that time there were wars and rumors of wars, nations rising against nations, famines, pestilences, and earthquakes, all of which prompted the people to desire a messiah or savior to deliver them from the problems of the day. With all this turmoil, especially in the political realm, the nations were ready for a savior, and want-to-be saviors were ready to come forward. The turmoil of that day and the rise of these false messiahs was not the fulfillment of the tribulation that was to come upon that generation, it was only, as Jesus say’s, “the beginning of sorrows.”

[GearHeaded]

“Then they will deliver you up to tribulation and kill you, and you will be hated by all nations for My name’s sake. And then many will be offended, will betray one another, and will hate one another. Then many false prophets will rise up and deceive many. And because lawlessness will abound, the love of many will grow cold. But he who endures to the end shall be saved. And this gospel of the kingdom will be preached in all the world as a witness to all the nations, and then the end will come. (Matt 24:9-14 NKJV)



Jesus here repeats to the disciples themselves what he had previously told the Jews. The disciples were going to be sent to the Jews to preach the gospel, but the Jews would kill them and persecute them. Jesus states this as a pronouncement of judgment when he says, “I send you prophets, wise men, and scribes: some of them you will kill and crucify, and some of them you will scourge in your synagogues and persecute from city to city, that on you may come all the righteous blood shed on the earth.” (Matt. 23:34).

Just before the destruction of Jerusalem in 70 AD, an angel speaking in similar fashion announces the fall of Jerusalem and says: “in her was found the blood of prophets and saints and of all who were slain upon the land.” (Rev. 18:24) The disciples, like the prophets sent by God before them, would be persecuted and even martyred. The unfolding of this prophecy (i.e., the persecution of the disciples) begins to take place in Jerusalem and the surrounding regions as recorded in the book of Acts.

The persecution of the disciples could take place in broad daylight (as opposed to Jesus being arrested at night with a trial done in secret) because those days were given over to lawlessness. The love of many grew cold, wickedness abounded, and Jerusalem herself had become a dwelling place for demons and a prison for evil spirits (Rev. 18:2). As the days were to grow dark, Jesus now gives his disciples a glimmer of hope in saying that “those who endure to the end”, who do not fall away because of him, “will be saved.” This hope is rooted in the gospel of the kingdom which was to be preached in the known world at that time. This hope, and the divine given task of preaching, led the disciples to accomplish this before the end came.

Paul speaking in his letter to the Romans said that the gospel was “being proclaimed throughout the whole world” (Rom. 1:8) and that the gospel had come to the Church of Collose “as it has also come in all the world, bearing fruit” being “preached to every creature under heaven” (Col. 1:6,23). Paul having lived close to the end of that age witnessed the gospel preached to the whole world. Sometime after the gospel is preached in the world the end of the age and the destruction of Jerusalem were to come.



Therefore when you see the ‘abomination of desolation,’ spoken of by Daniel the prophet, standing in the holy place” (whoever reads, let him understand), “then let those who are in Judea flee to the mountains. Let him who is on the housetop not go down to take anything out of his house. And let him who is in the field not go back to get his clothes. But woe to those who are pregnant and to those who are nursing babies in those days! And pray that your flight may not be in winter or on the Sabbath. For then there will be great tribulation, such as has not been since the beginning of the world until this time, no, nor ever shall be. And unless those days were shortened, no flesh would be saved; but for the elect’s sake those days will be shortened. (Matt 24:15-22 NKJV)



Concerning the coming of the end, Jesus now gives his disciples a sign of what would precede the destruction of Jerusalem. When those who are in Judea and Jerusalem see this sign they are told to flee to the mountains. The sign then can only be relevant to those who were in Jerusalem during that time. Much has been debated as to what this “abomination of desolation” is, but, one only needs to go to a clearer portion of scripture to find the answer. Luke takes the initiative of interpreting this section of scripture for us in his gospel: “But when you see Jerusalem surrounded by armies then know that its desolation is near. Then let those who are in Judea flee to the mountains” (Luke 21:20-21). Luke does not give us the exact words of Jesus that were spoken on the mount, but he does give us his meaning and a clear description of the sign that would precede the end.

When Jerusalem enters into revolt and Rome’s armies surround her, great tribulation and judgment was to come. The judgment was going to be so severe that Jesus pronounces “great tribulation, such as has not been since the beginning of the world until this time, no, nor ever shall be.” Thus begins the fulfillment to Jesus’ previous words when he says, “on you may come all the righteous blood shed on the earth.” No judgment against apostate Israel was ever as severe as it was in the destruction of Jerusalem in 70 AD. No future tribulation can surpass that which was carried out upon the Jews in that day being the judgment utterly destroyed them (“he sent out his armies, destroyed those murderers, and burned up their city” Matt 22:7). But, despite the severity of the fiery judgment, the elect were able to persevere. The days of tribulation were shortened to spare the elect from undue suffering.

The elect in this case are those who had “come out of her,” (Rev. 18) that is apostate Israel, and had come to Christ in obedience to the gospel. The elect are those who had heeded the warnings of Christ and the holy Apostle who also told his brethren to come out of Jerusalem, where they were to look for the city which is to come (Heb. 13:13). John also, after seeing the destruction of earthly Jerusalem (Rev. 18), is shown a new city that was to come from heaven (i.e., the Church/Bride of Christ, Rev. 20).

[GearHeaded]

“Then if anyone says to you, ‘Look, here is the Christ!’ or ‘There!’ do not believe it. For false christs and false prophets will rise and show great signs and wonders to deceive, if possible, even the elect. See, I have told you beforehand. “Therefore if they say to you, ‘Look, He is in the desert!’ do not go out; or ‘Look, He is in the inner rooms!’ do not believe it. For as the lightning comes from the east and flashes to the west, so also will the coming of the Son of Man be. For wherever the carcass is, there the eagles will be gathered together. (Matt 24:23-28 NKJV)



Knowing that as the tribulation of those days worsens more false saviors will come forward, Jesus again warns his disciples. People desiring an escape will look to flee to these deceivers even in remote places. But to these deceivers, with their false promises and false signs, Jesus warns his disciples not to flee to. Jesus’ coming was not going to be with false signs and promises of immediate victory over Rome; rather it was to be a clear and precise strike of judgment against his enemies.

The gospel of Luke is helpful in bringing a fuller understanding to Jesus’ words. In a separate conversation with his disciples from the one on the mountain, Jesus speaks of his (“as lightning”) coming in more detail. Luke records this conversation in Chapter 17 of his gospel.

When Jesus was asked about the coming of the kingdom of God he replied, “the kingdom of God does not come with observation, nor will they say, ‘See here it is’ or ‘See there!'”(Luke 17:21). Clearly the kingdom of God is seen and comprehended through they eyes of faith and only by those with a regenerate heart. But, in a seemingly contradictory statement a couple of verses later, Luke records Jesus saying, “For as the lightning that flashes out of one part under heaven shines to the other part under heaven, so also the Son of Man will be in His day [coming]” (Luke 17:24). This is not a contradiction. The Kingdom of God itself will not be observable in the flesh, but the signs that accompany its coming will be as observable as lightning.

Jesus begins to tell his disciples about the details of the observable signs. He speaks of the Judgment of the flood in Noah’s day, how it came suddenly and destroyed the people (vs 26-27). He speaks of the Judgment of Sodom when fire came down from heaven and destroyed them all (vs 29). Explaining that observable judgment (like lightning) will also accompany his own coming, he says, “Even so will it be in the day when the Son of Man is revealed” (Luke 17:30). The disciples, after hearing of this coming judgment and the examples of those taken away in judgment, ask “Where Lord?” Jesus gives them the answer “Where the dead body is (The dead body is a reference to Jerusalem) there the eagles will be gathered together (to execute judgment).” Thus, Christ’s coming, “as the lightning comes from the east and flashes to the west,” is observable for all to see in his judgment against Jerusalem.



Immediately after the tribulation of those days the sun will be darkened, and the moon will not give its light; the stars will fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens will be shaken. (Matt 24:29 NKJV)



Christ here speaks of his coming immediately following the tribulation of those days (i.e., the trouble of wars, famines, pestilences, false prophets, etc). There was not going to be a rest of days or years after the trouble of those days, nor a time of repentance given to apostate Israel, but, rather, an immediate and decisive execution of judgment. Jesus cloaks the language and description of this judgment in apocalyptic language similar to one of the prophets of old. The prophet Isaiah spoke judgment against the ancient city of Babylon in such language:



The burden against Babylon which Isaiah the son of Amoz saw . . . Behold, the day of the LORD comes, Cruel, with both wrath and fierce anger, To lay the land desolate; And He will destroy its sinners from it. For the stars of heaven and their constellations will not give their light; The sun will be darkened in its going forth, And the moon will not cause its light to shine. (Isaiah 13:1, 9-10 NKJV)



The apocalyptic judgment language of the scriptures often speaks of changes in the heavens at the destruction of, or changing of, empires and nations. In Isaiah’s time it was the city of Babylon which would be judged; in Jesus’ time it was to be Jerusalem. A city and a people who may have been influential, powerful, or a light to other nations, when destroyed was then considered darkness. Like the sun and moon failing to shine, so are the destroyed city and its people. Like the stars falling from the heavens, so the princes and rulers of that city fall and are no more. When something so major, so catastrophic, as an entire nation, city and people being destroyed, it is thought that the “powers of the heavens” are shaken. For the ancients believed that the powers of the heavens were what controlled the happenings of the nations; God’s wrath shakes even them.



Then the sign of the Son of Man will appear in heaven, and then all the tribes of the earth will mourn, and they will see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of heaven with power and great glory. And He will send His angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they will gather together His elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other. (Matt 24:30-31 NKJV)



Here many readers of the gospel think that Jesus is giving his disciples another sign to look for, like a picture in the sky, or a visible/physical symbol. This is a mistake because Jesus had already established what the sign of his coming was going to be (i.e., the destruction of Jerusalem and the temple). The “sign” in this passage is a revelation, or proof, of Christ himself in heaven. A literal Greek word translation of this verse is of some help here: “and then shall appear the sign of the Son of Man in heaven” (Matt 24:30 YLT). If the sign given (as lightning from one side of heaven to another) of Christ’s coming is the judgment against Jerusalem, then this verse speaks of the sign’s signification. One cannot (by very nature of what a sign is) confuse a sign with the actual thing that it signifies (e.g., a stop sign is not the physical action of stopping). The destruction of Jerusalem is the sign that signifies that Christ is ruling in heaven. The second part of this verse (“coming on the clouds of heaven”) makes this point much clearer.



Witnessing Christ’s judgment is seeing the evidence of Christ’s rule from heaven, at the right hand of God, coming on the clouds of heaven. This “coming on the clouds of heaven” is a reference to both Christ’s taking his position on the throne of heaven, and his ruling from that throne in the execution of judgment. Jesus, again speaking like one of the Old Testament prophets, cloaks his language in Hebraic apocalyptic imagery. Daniel, in similar language, speaks of the Messiah “coming on the clouds of heaven” as taking his seat at the right hand of God, being given dominion, glory, and a kingdom to rule over.



“I was watching in the night visions, And behold, one like the Son of Man, Coming with the clouds of heaven! He came to the Ancient of Days, and they brought Him near before Him. Then to Him was given dominion and glory and a kingdom, that all peoples, nations, and languages should serve Him. (Dan 7:13-14 NKJV )



Jesus himself when speaking on another occasion made reference to his “coming on the clouds” as evidence that he is the Christ, sitting at the right hand of God and ruling with power in the executing of judgment.



And the high priest arose and said to Him, “Do you answer nothing? What is it these men testify against you?” But Jesus kept silent. And the high priest answered and said to Him, “I put you under oath by the living God: Tell us if you are the Christ, the Son of God!” Jesus said to him, “It is as you said. Nevertheless, I say to you, hereafter you will see the Son of Man sitting at the right hand of the Power; coming on the clouds of heaven.” (Matt 26:62-64 NKJV)





Luke, recoding the same event that Matthew does, is very helpful and clears up some of the apocalyptic language. Luke is writing to a gentile audience and he takes the liberty to interpret some of Jesus’ Hebraic utterances so that his readers can better understand.



As soon as it was day, the elders of the people, both chief priests and scribes, came together and led Him into their council, saying, “If you are the Christ, tell us.” But He said to them, “. . . Hereafter the Son of Man will sit on the right hand of the power of God.” (Luke 22:66-69 NKJV)



Luke leaves out the apocalyptic utterance “coming on the clouds of heaven” and simply gives us the basic meaning of that utterance (i.e., sitting at the right hand of God with power). There are some nuances in the Hebraic language and imagery of “coming on the clouds”, but the clearest use of the language in scripture concerns the ability and power to execute judgment from heaven. The Old Testament records God himself coming on (literally “riding on”) clouds to judge nations. This power was given to Christ, and he reveals this in his coming with power and glory in judgment against Jerusalem.

When the people of that generation see the execution of Christ’s judgment, the complete destruction of the temple and city, they also see that Jesus is the Christ, ruling from heaven–the result is mourning. John also records that at the destruction of Jerusalem there will be those who will “stand at a distance for fear of her torment, weeping and wailing” (Revelation 18:15). Those who are attached to the earthly city may weep and wail upon its destruction, but Jesus reveals something better in saying that after it is done “He will send His messengers with a great sound of a trumpet, and they will gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.” The result of Christ’s coming in judgment against Jerusalem is that the kingdom is no longer restricted to a single nation, but will spread over the whole earth (i.e., the four winds under heaven).

The Old Testament age completely came to an end; its end being completed with the destruction of its temple. The new age would begin allowing the kingdom to grow and fill the whole earth like the mustard seed in the garden (Matt. 13:31). Jesus sends out his messengers all over the earth, from one end of heaven to another, to preach the gospel message. The trumpet they are sent out with announces that the king and the kingdom have come. It is the great trumpet call of the gospel which results in the gathering of the elect into the kingdom of God. God’s elect, from the farthest corners of the earth, who hear the gospel will respond in faith and enter into the kingdom. Even to this day messengers are still being sent out with the trumpet, gathering together God’s elect.

[GearHeaded]

Now learn this parable from the fig tree: When its branch has already become tender and puts forth leaves, you know that summer is near. So you also, when you see all these things, know that it is near — at the doors! Assuredly, I say to you, this generation will by no means pass away till all these things take place. Heaven and earth will pass away, but my words will by no means pass away. (Matt 24:32-35 NKJV)



Jesus has finished describing the days of tribulation, the destruction of the temple, and the end of that age. He transitions from speaking in apocalyptic language to the speaking of a simple proverb. Anyone who has observed the changing of the season knows when a tree starts to bring fourth leaves then summer is near. Likewise, when the disciples begin to see the things that Jesus has just described, they are to know that the time is near. Jesus then assures his disciples that all of the things concerning his coming and the end of the age would happen in their day by informing them again that their generation would not pass away until all the things he spoke of took place. Jesus then confirms his word as absolute, authoritative, and without possibility of fault, by putting it in supremacy over heaven and earth. The interpretation of all the former verses in Jesus’ discourse are then bound up in his guarantee that they would all take place in the first century.

From the time that Jesus spoke these words to their fulfillment took approximately 40 years. Like ancient Israel’s 40 year wandering in the wilderness before entering the promise land, so would that generation have to endure 40 years of transition before entering into the kingdom age (the anti-type of the promise land). The Hebrews who did not believe God, or obey the words of Moses, perished in the wilderness. Likewise the Jews of Jesus’ day perished for not believing the promise of the kingdom or heeding the words of Jesus. This wrath that was poured out on apostate Israel is/was the sign of Jesus Christ’s coming; his revelation that he is the Lord ruling and reigning in heaven over all the earth in the executing of judgment.



footnotes_________________________________________ ___________________________________________

[1] Josephus, Wars of the Jews 7.1-3

[1] Many Old Testament scriptures can be referenced to support this including: Daniel 9:26 “And the people of the [anointed] Prince who is to come [i.e., messiah] shall destroy the city and the sanctuary”

[1] Judas of Galilee was a political messiah. Acts 5:37

[1] The historians Eusebius and Josephus specifically mention such false messiahs in their work.

[1] Newton, “On the Prophecies” and Josephus’ “the Wars of the Jews”

[1] It is the position of the author that fallen Babylon as found in the book or Revelation is Jerusalem before its destruction in 70 AD. The author also holds to an early dating of the book of Revelation (63-68 Ad).

[1] Peter and John were arrested and put in jail (Acts 4:3). They were arrested and flogged (Acts 5:40). The stoning of Stephen forced many disciples to flee the city (Acts 7:54-60). Anyone who was found to be a disciple was arrested by order of high priest (Acts 9:1-2). The Apostle Paul was stoned (Acts 14:19).

[1] The Greek word for world in Jesus’ sermon is oikoumene, which means “inhabited land” and probably refers to the Romans Empire or Palestine.

[1] Luke takes out the words that Matthew uses “let the reader understand” because Luke explains it to his readers, thus interpreting Jesus’ words and the passage of scripture to which they refer.

[1] Josephus records this destruction in detail

[1] Josephus records that many did flee to the wilderness and sought after false christs.

[1] John 3:3 – Jesus answered and said to him, “Most assuredly, I say to you, unless one is born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God.”

[1] Apostate Israel is represented in Jerusalem. Scripture speaks often of Israel being dead. As a dead and withered fig tree (Matt 21:19), its leaders being filled with dead men’s bones (Matt 23), and its temple being desolate, i.e., without life (Matt 23).

[1] Rome is represented by the eagle here, not by mere symbolic reference (Rome’s state sign was the eagle), but also historically being God used Rome to carry out the destruction of Jerusalem.

[1] Isaiah 19:1 “Behold, the Lord is riding on a swift cloud, and is about to come to Egypt.”

[1] Some English translations use the word “Angels.” The Young’s literal Greek translation uses the word “messengers,” which the author of this work sees as the best English word to use considering the context.

[1] “Assuredly, I say to you, there are some standing here who shall not taste death till they see the Son of Man coming in His kingdom” (Matt 16:28)

[1] These words were spoken around 30 A.D. and the fulfillment of these events in history as described by the historian Josephus, as well as other NT books, was completed around 70 A.D.

[GearHeaded]

^ I'll be surprised if anyone even makes it through all this crap lol

[GearHeaded]

to bring this topic back to the OP, Davie ..

the term "anti christ" is no where to be found in the Old Testament scriptures. no where to be found in the NT writings of Paul, and is also no where to be found in the end times prophetic book of Revelation. and it was never used by Jesus himself.

the couple times that the term "anti christ" was ever used in the Bible was only by the Apostle John, once in his gospel letter and a couple times in his church letters . thats it.

if "anti christ" was such an important world changing figure in the Bible, you'd think the Bible would of mentioned a lot more about this character.
but the fact is, Hollywood has made this figure popular. not the scriptures.

if it wasn't for Hollywood, drama, 'ghost stories', end times fanaticisms, selling of books, etc.. the term "anti christ" would not even be known by 99.9% of people.

the Bible is 800 pages long and filled with millions of words . yet the word anti christ is used only like 4 times. its such a small part of scripture yet it makes up for a huge amount of Christian propaganda and book sales and sermons. why. because sensationalism sells!


note- thats not to say that the concept of "anti christ" isn't important or is not referred to in various places in scripture . Jesus refers to the concept, so does Paul and John in revelation, as well as Daniel in the OT. but keep in mind, in context the concept of this 'man of lawlessness' is generally always connected to the first century destruction of the temple in Jerusalem and the doing away with animal sacrifice once and for all

[almostgone]

^ I'll be surprised if anyone even makes it through all this crap lol

LOL, I'm weaving my way through it slowly now, when I can.

I have kind of a funky reading pattern. I skim read the information, ask myself what questions I have, then reread. On a paper this size, I'll probably break it up into blocks of information.

[almostgone]

to bring this topic back to the OP, Davie ..

the term "anti christ" is no where to be found in the Old Testament scriptures. no where to be found in the NT writings of Paul, and is also no where to be found in the end times prophetic book of Revelation. and it was never used by Jesus himself.

the couple times that the term "anti christ" was ever used in the Bible was only by the Apostle John, once in his gospel letter and a couple times in his church letters . thats it.

if "anti christ" was such an important world changing figure in the Bible, you'd think the Bible would of mentioned a lot more about this character.
but the fact is, Hollywood has made this figure popular. not the scriptures.

if it wasn't for Hollywood, drama, 'ghost stories', end times fanaticisms, selling of books, etc.. the term "anti christ" would not even be known by 99.9% of people.

the Bible is 800 pages long and filled with millions of words . yet the word anti christ is used only like 4 times. its such a small part of scripture yet it makes up for a huge amount of Christian propaganda and book sales and sermons. why. because sensationalism sells!


note- thats not to say that the concept of "anti christ" isn't important or is not referred to in various places in scripture . Jesus refers to the concept, so does Paul and John in revelation, as well as Daniel in the OT. but keep in mind, in context the concept of this 'man of lawlessness' is generally always connected to the first century destruction of the temple in Jerusalem and the doing away with animal sacrifice once and for all

True, 1 and 2 John pop to mind, but the way it is utilized I'm more inclined for it to mean "instead of" Christ. Kind of another one of of Satan/Lucifer's offices or roles.

There may be a mention in Joel where the locust army is discussed, but I'm trying to wrap things up at work and can't provide reference on that, so maybe put that on the shelf for a bit

[GearHeaded]

True, 1 and 2 John pop to mind, but the way it is utilized I'm more inclined for it to mean "instead of" Christ. Kind of another one of of Satan/Lucifer's offices or roles.

There may be a mention in Joel where the locust army is discussed, but I'm trying to wrap things up at work and can't provide reference on that, so maybe put that on the shelf for a bit

I think there are various different 'concepts' and 'characters' at play here . as sinful humans we always like to say "the devil made me do it" . but 99% of the time this is not the case.
I think Satan is satan, the anti christ is the anti christ, the 666 beast is the beast, the false prophet is the false prophet, and the man of lawlessness is the man of lawlessness..
they are all different concepts and characters depending on the context in which they are used.

to just simply blame everything on 'satan' is a mistake, and is giving him way more credit then he deserves.
the original concept of satan in hebraic literature is basically that of on "accuser" or "prosecuting lawyer" .. all satan is is the concept or entity that stands before god, the judge, and accuses you of wrong doing or sin/crime.
now that christ has come and atoned for sin, the concept of 'satan' is basically done and over with. Satan no longer has his 'lawyer license' to practice law as a prosecutor. he's be 'de barred' and thrown in the lake of fire.
but of course he have the remnants and left over work of satan, and have things like "anti Christs" to deal with . but again, thats a new concept and new character . thats not satan himself

[Proximal]

Guys,I can’t keep up with you.

But, tell me in your opinion was Christ THE ONLY son of God, or a Son of God?

In my readings, I could never find a definitive answer.

[Ernst]

Guys,I can’t keep up with you.

But, tell me in your opinion was Christ THE ONLY son of God, or a Son of God?

In my readings, I could never find a definitive answer.

For God so loved the world that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him should not perish but have everlasting life.

[Proximal]

Did Christ say that HE was THE son?

BTW, I am a Christian.

[Proximal]

Cause, I am a son of God. I am not a messiah but I am his son.

[Obs]

Cause, I am a son of God. I am not a messiah but I am his son.

Yes but the trinity is one and you are not it.
Jesus was also the "son of man."

Genesis speaks of the sons of god in reference to Godfearing man.

Jesus on the other hand was a more connected part of God rather than just his creation. God incarnate rater than made in his image.
The father, the son, and the holy ghost are not created. They always were.

I seriously wish more people would look into chris langans ctmu. It is not a religious theory. It literally ties in physics, science, and math into pretty much all religions.

It makes a shit ton more sense than "the big bang" because it starts at 3 that always were, instead of 0 that cannot be as academia would have it.

He was cast out for calling the universe "God".

[Obs]

Bear in mind the trinity and "3" plays into all aspects of what we know as life.

Time space and matter.
Quantum superposition.
Mathematical equation period.

The number of the universe and comparative discernation is "3". Two factors acting on each other and a result. The father, son and the holy ghost. 2+2=4
That premise holds true to any and all equation and science.

Langan took a shit on einstein and all before with his theory but the status quo are too blind to see it.
Every scientist scoffed the proof of quantum entanglement and since it was recently proven it is and will be the advancement of technology.

"Oh we always knew about entanglement!"

Well why the fuck is it we are only now realizing that information can be shared instantaneously without transmitted signal of light?

Langan is lightyears ahead of modern academia in his theory and they cannot disprove it, yet kepp proving him right and others wrong.

The rule of "3".

Not 1 not 0 but all.
Quantum superposition.

The most likely unknown state is all positions.
Nothing in and of itself cannot exist. Therefore all must be something and all must be everything.

"God"
"The universe"
"All things"



Bear in mind interviewers try to throw their own religious aspects on his interrogation in order to hear what they want.

Its the general idea though. Its not disputeable as a whole.

[JaneDoe]

Well, I was talking about some things with a Shepherd and he said to me:




Davi, do not confuse God's time with yours, for no one knows how much God's time is worth.
He is
omnipresent omnipotent omniscient.


In other words, the theory that "the supposed anti-Christ era was here 2.000 years ago is a mistake.



God is past, present, future.


Remember he is the almighty

[JaneDoe]

See, Davi. GH and I disagreed on a couple of points, but we agree to disagree and keep on going.

Feel free to post up topics for discussion that aren't a violation of the rules. Remember, everyone has a voice and a right to be heard ( as long as we keep it respectful) and
also remember disagreementt doesn't equate to dislike.

I'm glad there were no problems with this topic.

[Obs]

he is
omnipresent omnipotent omniscient.

God is past, present, future.

1...2... Three

[Ernst]

I am not a Christian and I think all of this is bizarre, to say the least.

I was, however, dragged to a whole bunch of different houses of worship, mostly Christian and some not, as a kid by my weird but well-meaning mother who thought it would help instill understanding and values, even if she didn't really believe it all herself.

I had a friend who was raised by his parents with no religion at all. He began dating a Christian girl and she invited him to attend her church to take communion. He had never stepped foot in a church and had no idea what communion was and didn't want to embarass himself, so he asked me. I explained the sequence and ceremony and what it all represented. His eyes were huge like saucers when I was done. He could not believe that this was a Christian practice!

I think most people in this country have become pretty tolerant in terms of religion and differences of practice or opinion therein. We always wait for these threads to blow up but they rarely do until Islam gets involved. Things always seem to start blowing up when Islam gets involved

[GearHeaded]

In other words, the theory that "the supposed anti-Christ era was here 2.000 years ago is a mistake.

why is that hard to believe . if the time of Christ himself was 2000 years ago, and you believe that to be true, why is it hard to believe that the time of "anti christ" was also 2000 years ago.

every spirit that does not confess that Jesus Christ has come in the flesh is not of God. And this is the spirit of the Antichrist, which you have heard was coming, and is NOW already in the world.
1John 4:3

this was written 2000 year ago

scripture no where teaches that the time of Christ, and the time of 'anti Christ' were to be separated by 2000+ years of history. its all one in the same time frame

[GearHeaded]

I had a friend who was raised by his parents with no religion at all. He began dating a Christian girl and she invited him to attend her church to take communion. He had never stepped foot in a church and had no idea what communion was and didn't want to embarass himself, so he asked me. I explained the sequence and ceremony and what it all represented. His eyes were huge like saucers when I was done. He could not believe that this was a Christian practice!

I don't understand this .. why would someone who is not a baptized devout faithful Christian want to take communion in the first place ?

communion is generally a private ceremony only taken part of by the disciples of Christ (its not a public offering).. when Christ 'broke the bread and gave the cup' at the "last supper" and first ever new covenant communion, is was a closed off private ceremony for only his disciples.
giving communion to random strangers off the street essentially waters down the ceremony and its meaning and makes it a casual non relevant non important thing.
the gospel message and call is public (everyone is invited to hear the message and be called to repentance), but the communion ceremony has always traditionally been private and something that only disciples take part in.

I guess modern day churches are now just letting anyone off the street partake in the ceremony and are thus defiling its true meaning.


I'm not trying to be a religious asshole here.. I just don't understand how someone that is not a Christian in the first place would ever consider going to a church and partaking in such an intimate private ceremony.

[GearHeaded]

Guys,I can’t keep up with you.

But, tell me in your opinion was Christ THE ONLY son of God, or a Son of God?

In my readings, I could never find a definitive answer.

Christ is God incarnate. he was and always has been. he was the only 'son of God' before he ever took on human flesh and came to earth.
he was and is and always will be "the very word of God". the creator of all things

1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. 2 He was in the beginning with God. 3 All things were made through Him, and without Him nothing was made that was made...14 And the Word became flesh and dwelt among us, and we beheld His glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father, full of grace and truth
John 1


he is not a 'son of god' , ie, made in the image of god, like Adam/man. he is very God of very God Himself. he was never made or created, he always has been. he himself is the creator of all things.
yet he is also the "son of man" , in that he took on human flesh to be the representative of all of mankind. so he is both God and Man.
as no mere mortal man could ever atone for the sins of all mankind. only the sacrifice of the son of God, very God of very God, could be 'perfect' in every way and be acceptable.
Christ being the 'son of God' , God incarnate, is what gives merit to his sacrifice and offering. if he was just a mere mortal man, like Adam, his sacrifice would be nothing.

[Ernst]

I don't understand this .. why would someone who is not a baptized devout faithful Christian want to take communion in the first place ?

communion is generally a private ceremony only taken part of by the disciples of Christ (its not a public offering).. when Christ 'broke the bread and gave the cup' at the "last supper" and first ever new covenant communion, is was a closed off private ceremony for only his disciples.
giving communion to random strangers off the street essentially waters down the ceremony and its meaning and makes it a casual non relevant non important thing.
the gospel message and call is public (everyone is invited to hear the message and be called to repentance), but the communion ceremony has always traditionally been private and something that only disciples take part in.

I guess modern day churches are now just letting anyone off the street partake in the ceremony and are thus defiling its true meaning.


I'm not trying to be a religious asshole here.. I just don't understand how someone that is not a Christian in the first place would ever consider going to a church and partaking in such an intimate private ceremony.

To you it's an intimate private ceremony that is an exercise of your devotion, to him it was a total mystery. He had no idea anything about it. I don't believe he went through with it.

A Methodist church I attended would pass around a loaf of bread, of which you'd break off a piece, and little plastic cups of grape juice for everyone and that was communion. If you sat through that service you got it. So yeah, everyone off the street regardless of age, commitment, devotion, etc. I guess they saw it that Christ would deny no one seeking salvation, so they wouldn't deny anyone either? As a kid I thought it was super weird that they did it that way (and used grape juice).

[GearHeaded]

To you it's an intimate private ceremony that is an exercise of your devotion, to him it was a total mystery. He had no idea anything about it. I don't believe he went through with it.

A Methodist church I attended would pass around a loaf of bread, of which you'd break off a piece, and little plastic cups of grape juice for everyone and that was communion. If you sat through that service you got it. So yeah, everyone off the street regardless of age, commitment, devotion, etc. I guess they saw it that Christ would deny no one seeking salvation, so they wouldn't deny anyone either? As a kid I thought it was super weird that they did it that way (and used grape juice).

well I guess the way I see it from my perspective (and from the perspective of the church tradition and doctrines that I was brought up in .. is that the communion table was always 'fenced') , is why would an outsider even want to participate to begin with.

I myself wouldn't walk into a satanic witchcraft or voodoo ceremony off the street and just randomly participate in their sacrificing of a chicken and drinking its blood.
why would I ever think to even do that unless I was heavily involved in that 'relegion' and practice to begin with. right ?

likewise, you probably wouldn't walk into a jewish synagogue off the street and randomly ask the rabbi to circumsize you , lol .

so I really don't get why someone who is not heavily involved in and a devout Christian to begin with would even want to "partake of the body, and drink the blood of Christ"..

its a pretty intimate ceremonial and religious thing.

53 Then Jesus said to them, “Most assuredly, I say to you, unless you eat the flesh of the Son of Man and drink His blood, you have no life in you. 54 Whoever eats My flesh and drinks My blood has eternal life, and I will raise him up at the last day. 55 For My flesh is food indeed, and My blood is drink indeed. 56 He who eats My flesh and drinks My blood abides in Me, and I in him. John 6

why would a non believer or random person off the street want to participate in such a 'bloody' religious ceremony .

again, I wouldn't randomly walk off the street into a voodoo house of worship and start sacrificing chickens with them. lol .. seems odd