You'll want to read this!

[btrizzyb]

Hey Ronnie, I know you have been very busy, just wanted to make sure that in catching up with threads that you didnt miss my post #5238. Trying to make sure I am using your program exactly the way you intended it to be used.

[Quester]

Brilliant!
This is great stuff thanks

[akn]

Sir ron great thread have learnt alot just in few days but still alot of reading to be
done

[Dadstrength]

Could you please answer post #5196 when you have time.

[LookinToGrow]

I'm a little confused about one thing. I'm about to finish my second reload and going to do a deload after. Then I'm taking a break from AAS. Do I do a low dose of test during this second deload and then do PCT? It looks like I'm supposed to do PCT immediately after this reload and no test during this deload, but after reading this through this thread I've found some conflicting language. Just trying to clarify. Thanks in advance.

[Ronnie Rowland]

I'm a little confused about one thing. I'm about to finish my second reload and going to do a deload after. Then I'm taking a break from AAS. Do I do a low dose of test during this second deload and then do PCT? It looks like I'm supposed to do PCT immediately after this reload and no test during this deload, but after reading this through this thread I've found some conflicting language. Just trying to clarify. Thanks in advance.

Techinically you could use either method but w
I have found that guys experience less post cycle crash tapering down to near TRT levels for a 2 week deload then PCT with hcg,etc for 3 weeks or so.

[The Titan99]

Techinically you could use either method but w
I have found that guys experience less post cycle crash tapering down to near TRT levels for a 2 week deload then PCT with hcg,etc for 3 weeks or so.

See! I thought I had a PHD in STS, but you learn something new everyday. I always advise people asking me about STS reload 8 weeks, deload 2 weeks, followed by nothing for 2 weeks (if your using test e) the day 15 PCT starts. I thought the 2nd deload was if you planned to continue reloading with AAS (like I do). I would think after the cycle you'd want to go straight for hpta start up asap. I've no experience there though. Lol!! The silver lining to trt!!!

[LookinToGrow]

Techinically you could use either method but w
I have found that guys experience less post cycle crash tapering down to near TRT levels for a 2 week deload then PCT with hcg,etc for 3 weeks or so.

Thanks for answering my question Ronnie. You're awesome!

[pawn master]

Hi Ronnie when you get a chance can you look at #5234.

Also in addition to #5234 if I was to run 500iu per week of hcg during the cycle instead of 2500iu eod at the end what would be the difference?

Thanks.

[Ronnie Rowland]

Hi Ronnie when you get a chance can you look at #5234.

Also in addition to #5234 if I was to run 500iu per week of hcg during the cycle instead of 2500iu eod at the end what would be the difference?

Thanks.

Not That much difference at all given your cycle was only 20 weeks in length.

[AresGod]

Great Information. Thanks!

[Dadstrength]

Thanks for the help Ronnie. So far the 20 week cycle is going great. Just test e 500mgs for first reload then 250 for deload then 750 for second reload. (im on week 14) But combined with the diet, an your training guidelines I'm making great progress. I was wondering how you feel on the length of recovery though. I read on this website people say the longer the cycle the longer the recovery. Even for simple test e cycles. I'm curious what's your take on that? Would a longer pct ( longer than 4 weeks) be better? Or instead of finish the 3rd reload natural then jumping back on a cycle for the 4th reload should i give the body more time?

Thanks again for your help.

[btrizzyb]

Double post, mod please delete

[The Titan99]

Hey Ron.
I was wondering, does Tren work as well as test in combination with GH? I'm cutting and using 7 i.u.'s of GH ed. I'm using Test E 400 mg/Tren A 1050 mg/Mast P 700 mg/NPP 350 mg - joints/Proviron 50 mg ed. This is the first time I've ever run Test so low and was wondering if I should run it higher. It's been 10 days and I like the way it looks and feels already.

[The Titan99]

How does Ronnie Coleman get by using AAS if he's a policeman?

[ppwc1985]

How does Ronnie Coleman get by using AAS if he's a policeman?

Idk but I personally know 5 state troopers in CT who use them. I think alot po use. They have tough job.

[The Titan99]

Yea, last time I was back I saw some cops who definitely were taking AAS. I just wonder how you can get by with it if your Ronnie's size.

[slimshady01]

Yea, last time I was back I saw some cops who definitely were taking AAS. I just wonder how you can get by with it if your Ronnie's size.

They just ignore ...

Can you imagine a sport where you had to be on high doses of heroin to compete like AAS... That sport would be shut down in seconds... Yet if u get busted with AAS they treat it just like heroin

[lla23]

Hey guys, i read this thread that Ronnie mention about "HMG out performs HCG, and seems little more effective than HCG" in PCT. so if i can't find HCG, can i replace it with HMG?

what will be the dosage for HMG for during the cycle? or even PCT?

[SEOINAGE]

Hello Ronnie. I've recently returned to this thread for a few reasons. I've been on TRT over a year, and done one 12 week blast. My training is more focused on powerlifting however. I was contemplating keeping my trt dose constant, but adding prop in for 8 weeks at a time, and upping my ai for the duration. I was kind of wondering how I could make this method work for my goals.

My training is rather interesting and is basically 4 sessions a week. 2 devoted to bench 2 to S/DL. I'll rotate through one session of bench will be say 5 rep, the next accesory, the next heavy 1-3 rep, then the next 8-12 rep. It is almost like the deload is built in, but still if i push too hard on every one of them, then eventually one is going to suffer soon after. I also change heavy movements so they tend to be only hit once a month. I'm not opposed to adding in official deloads at all.(this is overly simplifying my routine.) I also do supplemental work for back, rear delts, some arm work and shoulder work, as well as leg accessories, nothing very high volume however.

I had considered running 8 weeks of prop then 3 weeks without, all the while on trt dose. Wondering if I should change it to 8 and 2, or even 6 and 2. or maybe even 6 and 1, or 5 and 1.
Typical powerlifting deloads are 1 week out of 6, and consist of a week of higher reps and much less weight. But they also are hitting it hard and heavy every week. I like to think i do the same with my 5 rep days. But not sure where to go with this change.

After I get set up with prop, probably make my own, I want to start this up and see if I can do it continually for very long periods. Of course health is a concern, I donate blood regularly just on trt to make sure. s/b/dl is 567/405/485 raw, and my goals are well above 600 on s/dl and get close to 500 lb bench.

Last curve ball to throw into the mix, I've been working on reducing bodyfat as well while keeping my strength. I've been doing ok so far I think, down over 20 lbs and lifts are roughly equivalent, although I haven't squatted that much in a while. But in order to get to a lean healthy percentage I need to lose 25 lbs. And I think the prop would allow me to reduce overall calories more while preserving strength and muscle, and speed things up.

I intend to compete next month, and then hopefully nationals in november, so I don't want to go full bore into fat loss.

Hopefully this isn't too scattered, and take your time if you are able to get back to me, I realize it will be a long while before I even have prop, and I understand this is a long term commitment anyways. I've been lifting 13 years not counting the stuff I did growing up and in high school. Some bits of time off and some ups and downs but training for strength for 4 and a half years almost absolutely solid.

More info than you need but if you even have simple suggestions to get the most out of what I am doing I would greatly appreciate it, understand you are doing a lot for others. thanks.

[Ronnie Rowland]

Hello Ronnie. I've recently returned to this thread for a few reasons. I've been on TRT over a year, and done one 12 week blast. My training is more focused on powerlifting however. I was contemplating keeping my trt dose constant, but adding prop in for 8 weeks at a time, and upping my ai for the duration. I was kind of wondering how I could make this method work for my goals.

My training is rather interesting and is basically 4 sessions a week. 2 devoted to bench 2 to S/DL. I'll rotate through one session of bench will be say 5 rep, the next accesory, the next heavy 1-3 rep, then the next 8-12 rep. It is almost like the deload is built in, but still if i push too hard on every one of them, then eventually one is going to suffer soon after. I also change heavy movements so they tend to be only hit once a month. I'm not opposed to adding in official deloads at all.(this is overly simplifying my routine.) I also do supplemental work for back, rear delts, some arm work and shoulder work, as well as leg accessories, nothing very high volume however.

I had considered running 8 weeks of prop then 3 weeks without, all the while on trt dose. Wondering if I should change it to 8 and 2, or even 6 and 2. or maybe even 6 and 1, or 5 and 1.
Typical powerlifting deloads are 1 week out of 6, and consist of a week of higher reps and much less weight. But they also are hitting it hard and heavy every week. I like to think i do the same with my 5 rep days. But not sure where to go with this change.
It all depends on the routine. If you are hitting the same muscle twice a week for powerlifting do low reps early in the week and higher reps later in the week
After I get set up with prop, probably make my own, I want to start this up and see if I can do it continually for very long periods. Of course health is a concern, I donate blood regularly just on trt to make sure. s/b/dl is 567/405/485 raw, and my goals are well above 600 on s/dl and get close to 500 lb bench.

Last curve ball to throw into the mix, I've been working on reducing bodyfat as well while keeping my strength. I've been doing ok so far I think, down over 20 lbs and lifts are roughly equivalent, although I haven't squatted that much in a while. But in order to get to a lean healthy percentage I need to lose 25 lbs. And I think the prop would allow me to reduce overall calories more while preserving strength and muscle, and speed things up.

I intend to compete next month, and then hopefully nationals in november, so I don't want to go full bore into fat loss.

Hopefully this isn't too scattered, and take your time if you are able to get back to me, I realize it will be a long while before I even have prop, and I understand this is a long term commitment anyways. I've been lifting 13 years not counting the stuff I did growing up and in high school. Some bits of time off and some ups and downs but training for strength for 4 and a half years almost absolutely solid.

More info than you need but if you even have simple suggestions to get the most out of what I am doing I would greatly appreciate it, understand you are doing a lot for others. thanks.

I would use 5 reps for 4 weeks. Then progress to 1-3 reps for 4 weeks then use 10-15 reps for a 2 week deload. Run prop during reloads and run TRT during deloads. Always keep ancillary work between 8-15 reps.

[SEOINAGE]

I would use 5 reps for 4 weeks. Then progress to 1-3 reps for 4 weeks then use 10-15 reps for a 2 week deload. Run prop during reloads and run TRT during deloads. Always keep ancillary work between 8-15 reps.

Thanks Ronnie, should be ready to get started soon. Training changed a bit leading into my last meet, and working on planning out the next roughly 8.5 weeks till my next meet. Of course not knowing what I can handle during the reloads with the prop can change how I train afterwords. It gets complicated especially since I am cutting and have lost 30 lbs and plan to drop another 30 by spring.

[kml999]

Hey Ron,
i was on a 20wk cycle (STS) and wanted to share with you what happened to me when i was taking 750mg test e, 200mg tren e and 300mg Mast e. i was even taking 250IU HCG 2x/wk and NO AI as you advised. I did this as my last relaod before i deload at the end of the cycle and after 3-4wks of the above dosages i got an eye infection, UTI (urine traction infection) and high blood pressure (155/90). my blood pressure is good now and have no infections right now. i did blood work when the issue happened and its abvious the blood pressure increase was from the increase of estrogen:

1- estrodial 185 (11-44)
2- progesterone 0.3 (0.1-0.2)
3- Prolactin <0.06

i had to stop all injs and use the meds given to fight the two infections that i was suffering from, wait for 21 days after my last jab and started my pct which i am still on right now. I'm on my 7th wk of PCT. My PCT consists of 40/40/20/20/20/20 Nolvadex and 100/100/100/50/50/50 Clomid. I'm on my 7th wk of PCT right now.

After 4 wks of PCT did blood work and here are the results:
1- Estradiol= 34 (11-44)
2- LH= 0.04 (0.57- 12)
3- FSH= 2.8 (0.95-11.95)
5- Progesterone= 0.2 (<0.1-0.2)
6- Prolactin= <0.6 (3.46-19.4)
7- total testosterone = >15 (3-11) <---- test is above range!


questions:
1- what can i do to speed recovery? now i just completed 7/8 wks of PCT and my Testes are still very very small just like when i was on cycle. FYI i did take 250IU 2x/wk during cycle and was debating if i should do 250IU 3x/wk when noticed my teste keep shrinking as days pass by. what would you recommend to speed the recovery ? or just complete my current pct and see what happens?
2- if you noticed my progesterone/estrogen went up and i have noticed from the above results that when i took masterone my progesterone and estro didnt stay in check. does this sound correct to you? and another thing i thought DHT should maintain both progesterone and estradial in check, but in my case it let both progesterone and estradiol go through the roof without even resisting them....please comment
3- does it look my body is recovering? everything looks acceptable except my LH values! my FSH is picking up as i can see, but my LH is almost nil. i was injecting 1000iu of HCG/day starting from 3rd wk of pct (did this since i noticed my testes were very still small) and was expecting the teste size return to their original size. Now hcg stimulates in LH production, but after 10days of 1000iu of hcg and 25iu of HMG for 5 days my testes were still small? how to fix this?
4- is the low LH value because i was injecting HCG/HMG? i used both on 3rd and 4th wk of pct
5- would you recommend any adjustments in my PCT? I have everything in hand

any further comments would be helpful too

[Ronnie Rowland]

Hey Ron,
i was on a 20wk cycle (STS) and wanted to share with you what happened to me when i was taking 750mg test e, 200mg tren e and 300mg Mast e. i was even taking 250IU HCG 2x/wk and NO AI as you advised. I did this as my last relaod before i deload at the end of the cycle and after 3-4wks of the above dosages i got an eye infection, UTI (urine traction infection) and high blood pressure (155/90). my blood pressure is good now and have no infections right now. i did blood work when the issue happened and its abvious the blood pressure increase was from the increase of estrogen:

1- estrodial 185 (11-44)
2- progesterone 0.3 (0.1-0.2)
3- Prolactin <0.06

i had to stop all injs and use the meds given to fight the two infections that i was suffering from, wait for 21 days after my last jab and started my pct which i am still on right now. I'm on my 7th wk of PCT. My PCT consists of 40/40/20/20/20/20 Nolvadex and 100/100/100/50/50/50 Clomid. I'm on my 7th wk of PCT right now.

After 4 wks of PCT did blood work and here are the results:
1- Estradiol= 34 (11-44)
2- LH= 0.04 (0.57- 12)
3- FSH= 2.8 (0.95-11.95)
5- Progesterone= 0.2 (<0.1-0.2)
6- Prolactin= <0.6 (3.46-19.4)
7- total testosterone = >15 (3-11) <---- test is above range!


questions:
1- what can i do to speed recovery? now i just completed 7/8 wks of PCT and my Testes are still very very small just like when i was on cycle. FYI i did take 250IU 2x/wk during cycle and was debating if i should do 250IU 3x/wk when noticed my teste keep shrinking as days pass by. what would you recommend to speed the recovery ? or just complete my current pct and see what happens?
2- if you noticed my progesterone/estrogen went up and i have noticed from the above results that when i took masterone my progesterone and estro didnt stay in check. does this sound correct to you? and another thing i thought DHT should maintain both progesterone and estradial in check, but in my case it let both progesterone and estradiol go through the roof without even resisting them....please comment
3- does it look my body is recovering? everything looks acceptable except my LH values! my FSH is picking up as i can see, but my LH is almost nil. i was injecting 1000iu of HCG/day starting from 3rd wk of pct (did this since i noticed my testes were very still small) and was expecting the teste size return to their original size. Now hcg stimulates in LH production, but after 10days of 1000iu of hcg and 25iu of HMG for 5 days my testes were still small? how to fix this?
4- is the low LH value because i was injecting HCG/HMG? i used both on 3rd and 4th wk of pct
5- would you recommend any adjustments in my PCT? I have everything in hand

any further comments would be helpful too

1)You needed to Pct with hcg at 2500 eod for 2-3 weeks post cycle not clomid and nolvadex only. 2)dht or Masterone is not going to help with estrogen and especially progesterone. You are stuck with the progesterone increases from the tren. I would use aromasin or arimidex since you are so estrogen sensitive. Nolvadex combine with mast is another option to consider. 3)either or hcg if counterfeit or you are one of these people who will take a long time to recover. Did your balls slowly or abruptly shrink during your cycle when hcg was being administered 2xwk?4)no. 5) run hcg 2500 eod for 3 weeks. First concern is its quality!

[BigSwol]

Ronnie what's ur thoughts on sust, eq,var?
I was thinking
Weeks 1-8 sust 600 mg, eq 500mg, var 50mg Ed
Weeks 9&10 sust 300mg
Weeks 11-18 sust 750, eq 650, mast 300 ew
Weeks 19-20 sust 450
Then pct...prob nolva and hcg

Thanks and interesting stuff!

[kelevra]

Back workout?
Do you ever recommend separating width and thickness to dif days?
If so, 3 best movements for each??

[Crazy Chris]

Back workout?
Do you ever recommend separating width and thickness to dif days?
If so, 3 best movements for each??

I'm sure Ronnie will have some great input on this one. But I thought I'd share my own back routine with you

I work out twice each day. On back day I do width in the morning and thickness in the evening.

Width:
1. Lat pull down, 6 sets
2. Narrow pull down w palms facing eo, 6 sets

Thickness:
1. Seated row medium/narrow grip, 6 sets
2. Diagonal row/pull w rope, 6 sets

So that's a total of 24 sets for back each week.
I could never do 24 sets in one session, but with this routine I have time to recover between the two sessions and I can do more volume.
I really like the idea of focus on two excercises each session and increase the amount of work sets to a maximum of 6. This has worked incredibly well for me. And I personally think separating width and thickness to different days is great.

[Ronnie Rowland]

I'm sure Ronnie will have some great input on this one. But I thought I'd share my own back routine with you

I work out twice each day. On back day I do width in the morning and thickness in the evening.

Width:
1. Lat pull down, 6 sets
2. Narrow pull down w palms facing eo, 6 sets

Thickness:
1. Seated row medium/narrow grip, 6 sets
2. Diagonal row/pull w rope, 6 sets

So that's a total of 24 sets for back each week.
I could never do 24 sets in one session, but with this routine I have time to recover between the two sessions and I can do more volume.
I really like the idea of focus on two excercises each session and increase the amount of work sets to a maximum of 6. This has worked incredibly well for me. And I personally think separating width and thickness to different days is great.

Yes this works great. Separating quads and hams also works equally as well for some!

[Ronnie Rowland]

Back workout?
Do you ever recommend separating width and thickness to dif days?
If so, 3 best movements for each??

Width:
dual cable pulldowns palms facing forward
Pullups with medium grip
Pullover machine like Dorian Yates used

Thickness:
Rows on life fitness macine using side grip and seat set deep so angle of pull is at upper abs to lower chest area
Seated cable rows- close grip
One arm dumbell rows

[Ronnie Rowland]

Ronnie what's ur thoughts on sust, eq,var?
I was thinking
Weeks 1-8 sust 600 mg, eq 500mg, var 50mg Ed
Weeks 9&10 sust 300mg
Weeks 11-18 sust 750, eq 650, mast 300 ew
Weeks 19-20 sust 450
Then pct...prob nolva and hcg

Thanks and interesting stuff!

looks good but I would run masteron both reloads and use var during second reload because of its unmatched ability to enhance ATP/CP systems. You may want to run var for both reloads!

[kelevra]

Hey Ronnie,
I typically stick to your style carb cycling diet with good results, but did want your thoughts on carb backloading?
Thanx

[Ronnie Rowland]

Hey Ronnie,
I typically stick to your style carb cycling diet with good results, but did want your thoughts on carb backloading?
Thanx

It works as well.

[kelevra]

Typical macro;s are 315, 200, and 50
would I keep about the same for back loading and just hit all carbs in first 2 post workout meals?

[Ronnie Rowland]

Typical macro;s are 315, 200, and 50
would I keep about the same for back loading and just hit all carbs in first 2 post workout meals?

I would add carbs in post workout meal as well unless it's late in the evening. Best to always Include some fats to protein and carbs pre-workout!

[Ronnie Rowland]

Typical macro;s are 315, 200, and 50
would I keep about the same for back loading and just hit all carbs in first 2 post workout meals?

You need some fats along with carbs and protein pre-workout to provide sustained energy for workouts.

[TJ413]

Aren't u suppose to take off a break for as long as u ran ur cycle??

[Ronnie Rowland]

Aren't u suppose to take off a break for as long as u ran ur cycle??

Not if you are a competitor or trying to get as big as humanly possible.

[TJ413]

Hey Ron, how does this look for a 5 day split doing the slingshot training.

Mon. Chest
Tues. Back
Wed. Off
Thurs. Shoulders , traps
Fri. Bis, tris, forearms
Sat. Legs
Sun. Off

I do 12 intense sets for each muscle group

[lynxeffect1]

i was told proviron combined with nolva almost works as good as an ai ? yet safer and can be ran for months on end . if you sensitive to putn on lots of water weight how do u go about staying on an ai year round? cycle between arimidex and aromasin, den maybe nolva proviron ? i know u mentioned use less test and more anabolics, but if u really wanted test there and has estro issues ?
also ron for someone whos only using aas and not insulin, is white basmati rice fine for offseason compared to wholegrain brown rice? i thought id bloat more since basmati is fast releasing but someone told me that white is better for offseason because and wont bloat you where as brown would in the offseason and shud be used when dieting?

[The Titan99]

Hey Ron, how does this look for a 5 day split doing the slingshot training.

Mon. Chest
Tues. Back
Wed. Off
Thurs. Shoulders , traps
Fri. Bis, tris, forearms
Sat. Legs
Sun. Off

I do 12 intense sets for each muscle group

I'd switch arm day and leg day around. Give your arms a rest day after shoulder. Just mho. Of course there's a lot to be said for a good day or two off after leg day. I'm interested to see what Ron says.