Returns you get for your effort!!!

[Ronnie Rowland]

Originally Posted by IronReload04

an idea of dante is


"he has never seen someone who could incline bench 405 for reps, squat ass to grass 600 for reps, deadlift 600 for reps who was small"

absolute strength is not correlated with muscle size......but in perfect form, "STRENGTH PROGRESSION" is highly correlated with muscle growth with the proper food intake....since we are constantly getting stronger, we are contsantly feeding ourselves a stimulus to be larger.....perfect form, powerbuilding form mind you, not powerlifting form

this is the very nature of "our" progressive overload

I agree that someone who can incline press 405 for reps is not going to have a small chest. But, I have seen people who could bench 405 for reps that simply could not get a massive chest until they added flyes to their program. What do you do in those instances since you are limited to 1 exercise?

[IronReload04]

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[Ronnie Rowland]

ahhh ha

ok, i didnt catch the difference between progressive vs true overload......didnt know true overload was a term, so i take it true means volume.



the thinking by dc is this.....you cannot progress infinately with volume, somewhere down the lines, you will get deminishing returns because you can only do so many sets........strength on the otherhand, infinite progress can be made....that is, their is no point where you will start getting diminishing returns

Training has to do with adaptation. ALL 3- Volume, Intensity and Strength have it's limitations. For e.g.; If you perform 1 intense set of heavy barbell curls twice a week, the neural pathways will eventually adjust themselves by getting stronger so they can handle an even heavier weight load next time you train. Yes, the biceps will get stronger, but not necessarily a lot bigger. Stay with me here! When you take advantage of the added strength gains made by using less volume and then co-mingling those added strength gains with additional training volume while not over-training, you can be assured you will grow bigger muscles! That is how you create a true progressive overload! You can use all the fancy beyond failure training methods such as drop sets and rest-pause for hours on end and never create a true progressive overload because limitless adaptation equals a heavier workload in conjunction with additional volume to breakdown down more muscle tissue, while never going past the point of diminishing returns.

I do not agree with DC about strength being infinite. Strength gains cannot be defined as infinite because strength gains will eventually slow down and possibly stop altogether. If strength gains were indeed infininte then we could all bench press 1,000,000,000,000,000,000, pounds plus and thats just not how it works. When a bodybuilder can bench press 400 pounds for 2 sets then incorporate periods where they do 5 sets does it mean they are not making progress in building muscle mass because they are stuck at 400 pounds? Of course not because they have added more sets to cause trauma to the tissue during the appropriate times. I call this Slingshot Periodization!! At this point caloric intake becomes a large factor as does the "anabolic priming phase" in order to make the muscles more sensitive to the volume previously used during the last "anabolic blasting phase"!!!!!

I agree with DC that you cannot progress infinetly with volume. I made that clear in the first post of this thread. But, how can he say 2 sets is the cut off point? I feel I made a good case as to why 10 sets is that cut off point. Basically, it has to do with the fact a muscle quits firing with efficiency after doing about 10 work sets.

[Ronnie Rowland]

[QUOTE=IronReload04;3691927]ahhh ha

ok, i didnt catch the difference between progressive vs true overload......didnt know true overload was a term, so i take it true means volume.


A progressive over-load and a true progressive over-load are not one in the same. Creating a progressive over-load is brought forth by being able to lift more weight using the same form, amount of work sets, and rest periods between sets. A true progressive over-load (a phrase I coined) is also brought forth when you can lift more weight using the same form, and rest periods between sets, but the amount of work sets performed must be greater than what’s required to produce a progressive over-load!

[IronReload04]

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[Ronnie Rowland]

i gotta say, its nice doing it here rather than bb.com


if it was bb.com, it would be world war 3

I visited bodybuiLding.com today and guess what I saw. Scroll down to page 3 on this link http://forum.bodybuilding.com/showthread.php?t=5358063

A lot of highschool kids over there. I often wonder how I would have acted back then if I had had access to the internet..LOL

[K.Biz]

damn this is a good thread

[Ronnie Rowland]

damn this is a good thread

It just keeps getting better!

[IronReload04]

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[Ronnie Rowland]

o sling shot, by the way, i started dc back up today......it was planned.....so it was really just ironic that this thread started a couple days ago wow.....


so, damn, i forgot how intense this programs is.....havnt done it in 6 months.......The rest pause is extremely taxing.....its more taxing, far more taxing, than 2 straight sets with 2 forced reps.....i was breathing like a locomotive the whole time too.....




another huge huge benefit for me...with dc, is that i can do cardio 4 days a week, every other day, to stay lean.....huge huge plus......and the metabolic increases that come from lifting heavy, and involving large portions of the body, are really huge.......I feel like I am in love lol

I love this shit

LOL...It does not take many rest-paused sets before you feel taxed.

You hit the nail on the head when you said heavy lifting increases one's metabolic rate. Sonny brought up a very good point in one of the cardio thread were he stated HIT or HIIT cardio will in fact burn more bodyfat 24 hours post training in comparison to low/moderate intensity cardio.


Here's my question to you-why would you want to become a cardio monkey during an entire mass phase when you could spend more time and energy during a designted (4 weeks) to really blast the muscles and make them grow? Not to mention you drastically increase sarcopalsmic growth which makes up roughly 30% of your muscle size!!!

When my trainees are using the STS properly they don't have the extra energy to waste on cardio during the 4 week anabolic blast because they need it for recovery. Only during the "anabolic cruise" and the "anabolic prime" is training volume lowered enough were one can benefit by adding cardio. And even though the training volume will be lowered after the "anabolic blast", sarcoplasmic growth will be maintained until the next blasting phase because you're never taking a complete lay-off unless injured or on vacation.

Does that make sense?

[IronReload04]

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[Ronnie Rowland]

ya......makes sense....from a different perspective, this is why i like being a cardio bunny

1. hunger- it drives hunger even more
2. I believe it gets the digestive system running smoothly, and on all cylynders
3. blood flow, recovery, sweats out toxins
4. increases food intake....increased food intake raises metabolism
5. allows us to eat like 300 pounders, but curbs bodyfat gain in doing the process

this is my favorite thing dante has ever said, well i put together a couple of them

a food processing, human forklift, muscle building fat burning blast furnace



we feel hot, and we sweat literally all the time....its a good feeling.....it all leads to a good body composition.

1) I think the heat is caused by eating 2 grams of protein per pound of bodyweight.

2) More weight training volume also increased appetite, sweat, blood flow, revs up the metabolism, etc.

3) Some 300 lbers don't eat as much as a lot of 180 lbers.

Don't you think the body would eventually adapt to aerobics if not given a break?

[Ronnie Rowland]

o sling shot, by the way, i started dc back up today......it was planned.....so it was really just ironic that this thread started a couple days ago wow.....


so, damn, i forgot how intense this programs is.....havnt done it in 6 months.......The rest pause is extremely taxing.....its more taxing, far more taxing, than 2 straight sets with 2 forced reps.....i was breathing like a locomotive the whole time too.....

IronReload what you just described sounds more like cardio conditioning that gaining strength.

I find rest-pause is comparable to laying cement block. pick up 2-20 pound block. Walk it 10 ft and lay it down. Repeat 20 times. Take 15 seconds to get back to the pile of blocks.


How can you expect to generate a high rate of torque while at the end of a rest-pause set? Would'nt it be better to avoid this type of fatigue when lifting weights. Too me rest-pause done in the higher rep range is a beyond failure technique like drop sets designed to cause hypertrophy through accumulative fatigue not making maximum strength gains.

[IronReload04]

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[Ronnie Rowland]

I now understand why he calls himself Ironreload. When he runs out of ammo he simply re-loads...LOL


I wanted to make it clear to the everyone that IronReload and I are in no way arguing. We are simply presenting our views about each variable. This might just be the comparison of all time between low vs moderate volume training when we are finished.

[IronReload04]

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[Ronnie Rowland]

[QUOTE=IronReload04;3692175]ok


1. I believe what you are saying makes sense.......Its a logical idea and principle.....I believe it may work very well.......as far as volume...on the other hand...Let me ask you this though......if you can bench press 405 for 2 sets, does doing 5 sets with 405 cause a reason to be bigger? Why do you need to be bigger, to do 5 sets instead of 2? wierd as this may sound, I am thinking of a caveman.......if he can already press a boulder for instance 10 times for 2 sets.......what kind of adaptions are really taking place to allow him to do it for 3 additional sets........might it have something to do with endurance? My argument is that, in order for him to push a much larger boulder, he needs to be bigger to be able to do it.....or doing it will make him bigger.........perhaps your way, as well as mine, will do the trick...after all, their is multiple ways to skin a cat.


The fastest way to making the muscles hypertrophy are combining the 2 basic principles below.

1) Gaining strength! Obviously, we clearly agree on this point. This is the basis of DOGGCRAPP TRAINING. A very good concept!

2) Increasing volume through periodization in order to cause more trauma to muscle tissue. The STS and DC training principles become divided in this area.

Note: Elite powerlifters follow periodization with straight sets to peak out their strength and size gains.




Very low volume or very high volume is always a bad idea during a mass phase. I feel a lot of bodybuilders miss the boat by trying to find what they consider the perfect amount of training volume their bodies can recover from and then they stick to it indefinitely. They mistakenly believe that any work performed over that limit will take away from their recovery abilities and decrease their muscle mass. They also believe that any work done below that perfect threshold won’t break down enough muscle tissue to stimulate growth.

The logic behind their thinking is to use the perfect training volume required to stimulate muscle growth so they can stick with it indefinitely and always fully recover. What these individuals fail to realize is that the body will become over-trained by using the same routine for a prolonged period regardless of the amount of volume used! This is why periodically increasing the volume actually prevents over-training through over-adaptation. That’s right, frequent bouts of more training equal’s enhanced recovery and strength not the other way around. Obviously muscle endurance does come into play !


When many bodybuilders hit a plateau, what do they do? They begin to push even harder by adding more intensity or exercises to their routine. This kind of thinking is wrong because a muscle has to be exposed to something it is not used to doing without over-training the nervous system and joints. Adding additional exercises or trying to use beyond failure techniques is widely accepted for producing frustrated bodybuilders!

It’s no secret that progressively adding more weight to every lift is a sure-fire way to increase total lean body mass, given the diet, training volume, and exercise selection is spot on. This is precisely what the Slingshot Training System will do.

Almost everyone starts out using low volume. They grow at a phenomenal rate until the body adapts and quits responding. Because some feel the gains were so great using the lower volume approach, they begin to try and lift heavier weights while using the same program for extended periods of time. They put continued pressure on themselves to try to beat personal records each training session in hopes it will somehow further their muscle mass. Eventually these people end up with chronic injuries and/or stagnation as a result.

Now check this out! The intelligent trainer’s switch-over to using more volume, while the less fortunate keep thinking less is always more! However, the next mistake comes into play by the trainees who have switched over to using the higher volume approach. Many bodybuilders become so overwhelmed with their newly found muscle mass after having increased the volume that they begin to reason with themselves thinking more must always be done from that point on. They quickly hit a point of diminishing returns and eventually develop over-use injuries and an over-trained nervous system, instead of reverting back to using a lower amount of volume that worked so well at the beginning.

Sometimes their training will take the form of more sets-reps, exercises, intensity, training session, etc. Some are in constant search for the latest routines that will shock their muscles even further. However, all this does is hold them back even more because no one can overcome diminishing returns or keep using the same routine for extended periods of time and expect to make maximal gains!

[Ronnie Rowland]

....

[Ronnie Rowland]

ok

2. as far as infinity goes......think of it in the other direction.....think of 2 points, and stand on one of them......go half way to the other point, then do it again, and again, and again.......if you go half way to the next point every time, you can never get to the other point......so it can be said that you can go half way to the next point an infinite amount of times.........thinking of strength this way, it really is infinite......now just think of it as a really really really big distance, a distance so big, that 99 percent of people never get to the point where going half way yields no noticable difference....progress slows, but it never stops.........its my belief that anyone who is not elite, can make progress very rapidly. alot of people, normal jo's in the gym, stall because they are undereating and not doing a thought out logical routine.

I totaly agree about people stalling due not following logical training/dieting principles.

Okay,I can make the same arguments for volume and intensity as you are making about strength. In short, there are limitations in-

1) How fast you can progress in gaining strength

2) How much intensity you can use while avoiding over-training

3) How many sets you can perform without hitting a point of diminishing returns.

Note: I have learned that the key to maxing out one's full-genetic potential as a bodybuilder is creating a perfect balance between all 3 (Volume/Strength/Intensity).


Which training approach do you believe is going to yield the fastest gains in strength? In other words which training sytle below is the absolute best way to reach point B to point A in the shortest amount of time?

1) A rest paused set in the high rep range?

2) A straight set in the lower rep range?



Obviously it's not a good idea to keep adding sets forever. If there were a perfect linear relationship between the number of sets used each workout and the muscle gains made, then adding both size and strength would simply come about by increasing the number of sets and we know this won't work with maximum efficiency.

On the other hand, if there were a perfect linear relationship between strength increases and the msucle gains made, then adding both size and strength would simply come about by increasing one's strength and we know this won't work with maximum efficiency.

Here's what I have learned- You can't just keep gaining strength at a rapid pace or continue adding more sets or intensity to grow indefintely. 10 work sets per muscle group will work better than 2 for a time, but it doesn't follow that 20 sets will work better than 10. In addition, it does not mean 10 sets will always work better than 2 sets because a de-load is in order for making maximum progress to continue.

Current research tells me that a moderate volume training approach like the one used with the STS increases strength better than either a high volume (for i.e.; 20 sets) or a low volume ( for i.e.; 2 sets). I am of the belief that there is indeed an optimal training volume to be used with straight sets during specific training phases. Deviating very far below or above has compromised gains in both strength and size for those I have trained.

[Ronnie Rowland]

ok

3. dante himself never said anything about cut off points.....that was me......i just said that was my sweet spot for strength gains, but who is to say its not 1 or 2 or 3 or 4 or whatever

Wouldn't 4 sets or more of rest-pause cause serious over-training? The DC training method I have read about is 1 rest-paused set twice every 8 days.

[IronReload04]

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[Ronnie Rowland]

its goes like this, and I will use chest as an example

monday- incline bench- i set rest paused

friday- dumbell bench- 1 set rest paused

wednesday- 15 deg smith bench- 1 set rest paused


so its 3 sets rest paused in 2 weeks.....

a rest paused set looks like this,

basically just a straight set until failure....rack the weight.....take 15 deep breaths........grind out some reps....repeat once more

so it depends how you look at it



its not possible not to make strength gains if we are doing things precisely as layed out, and not dieting down......if you are not making strength gains, you are not doing this program correctly its that simple

I believe the more you do the above scenario the more strength gains will slow down until finally plateauing and no longer being able to gain.

Now take a very close look at the 3 day per week STS below. You'll notice the 3 day per STS is based on the "EXACT" same principle as DC training (getting progressively stronger). They're lay-out is very similar. Probably more so that any other training systems out there!

The STS involves a 2 exercise rotation as opposed to 3 rotation like DC. I did this because I feel it allows more specific adaptions to occur. I think you can build more muscle and strength by always using the 2 most productive exercises per body part as opposed to spending time on less effective movements.

I also added a higher volume phase to induce more growth. I feel the DC blast could be compared to the STS anabolic cruise (gaining more strength and some size). I feel the DC cruise could be compared to the STS anabolic prime (taking a recovery period). I do not see anything in the DC program that compares to the STS blasting phase (mass and then strength as opposed to strength and then mass like the cruise).


Heres a summary of the (3 day per week) STS-"Single-Shot" Slingshot Training System

There are 3 phases to each cycle:

1. Prime: 2 weeks 1 set per body part, low volume
2. Blast: 4 weeks 4 sets per body part, high volume
3. Cruise: 2 weeks 2 sets per body part, moderate volume

During each phase organize your workouts as follows:

A.
Chest
Shoulders
Triceps
Back width
Biceps
Brachialis

B.
Calves
Lat thickness
Traps
Quads
Hams
Abs

Alternate workouts as follows:

Monday: A
Wednesday: B
Friday: A
Monday: B

Choose 1 key (or primary) compound exercise and 1 secondary (compound or isolation) exercise for each muscle group. Then take those exercises and rotate them using only 1 per workout so that the above rotation looks like this:

Monday: A Key
Wednesday: B Key
Friday: A Secondary
Monday: B Secondary
Wednesday A Key
Friday B Key

REPS- Unless otherwise stated all reps are performed to "good failure" i.e.
the point at which no further reps are possible in good form

SETS Do up to 3 warm up sets and then perform your work sets as follows (with the exception of abs/brachialis/traps and hams which only require 1 set)

1. PRIME- Key exercises are performed only
1 set 12-15 reps

2. BLAST
i) Key
1st set- 6-8 rep 1 rep short of good failure
2nd set 4-6 reps
3rd set 6-8 reps
4th set 12-15 reps
ii) Secondary
1st set- 12-15 reps
2nd set 8-10 reps
3rd set 8-10 reps
4th set 4-6 (or 6-8 reps if isolation exercise)

3. CRUISE- effectively 1st and 2nd sets of BLAST
i) Key
1st set 6-8 reps 1 rep short of good failure
2nd set 4-6 reps
ii) Secondary
1st set 12-15 reps
2nd set 8-10 reps


So my question is- how do you "BLAST" with low volume?

[IronReload04]

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[Drive]

interesting chat were having

[Ronnie Rowland]

interesting chat were having

Interesting to say the least.

[moush]

this is a great read!

especially since i have done Doggcrapp before with some success and now I am using STS

[moush]

i used to be a cardio bunny i did it for almost 2 yrs straight and this is the first time ive taken off from cardio (its been 3 weeks so far without cardio, i have one week left) and i gotta say i still feel great, i dont feel "heavy". Once the cruise phase comes ill do cardio 3 times a week for 45-60 min.

[IronReload04]

one more thing to add

from the dc/low volume perspective

if you gain strength, but fail to gain size over time....it has been said that the person has not eaten enough food, and thats where the problem lies....with proper food intake, size will always come

[Ronnie Rowland]

one more thing to add

from the dc/low volume perspective

if you gain strength, but fail to gain size over time....it has been said that the person has not eaten enough food, and thats where the problem lies....with proper food intake, size will always come

While that may be true, why is it that everyone (both male and female) I have trained or trained with have been able to gain more muscle mass doing 6 intense work sets each week as opposed to 1 intense work set a week?

Could it be that combining more volume with the extra calories and increased strength gains is what causes maximum growth? After all, I'm talking about maximum growth not just making some gains.


We just hit page 3!

[IronReload04]

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[IronReload04]

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[Ronnie Rowland]

not to be confused with weider confusion principals........we are cycling and keeping track of strength doing each exercise once every 2 weeks... , so we are not using the principle of completely doing something different each and every time......

I certainly understand and agree with DC Training that changing exercises in order to confuse the muscles and make them grow does not work as described.

Slingshot Training confuses the muscles by simply loading and de-loading with straight sets all while using the same 2 exercises over and over again.

[IronReload04]

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[Ronnie Rowland]

one more thing i wanted to add

I absolutely promise you, that dc rest pausing is more taxing than 2 straight sets to failure with 2 forced reps......Here is why i think so



ok, what i was doing before for shoulders for instance, was this, my workout

set 1- b.b. military press- 6 reps, help on 7 and 8
set 2- d.b. military press- 8 reps with help on 9 and 10


now dc, last night for instance

chest- low incline smith- 8/4/3 15 reps rest paused
delts- d.b. mil press- 8/3/1 12 reps rest paused

the main thing here, is that for dc, after chest rest pause, i had to go 1 set of dumbells lighter to get 8 reps, and it was a struggle.....where with my previous workout, after 1 set of b.b mil, i was able to go 1 set of db's heavier

What you just described is another reason I am not a big fan of rest pause. Simply stated, you are doing 3 mini-sets in 1 long set but it's not the same as 3 straight sets performed with plenty of rest between sets.

Follow me closely here! Who do you think would make the most gains; a guy who performs dead-lifts with 4 sets of 10 reps using 400 lbs or a guy who does 1 triple drop set using 400 lbs, 350 lbs, 300 lbs and finally 270 lbs? The obvious answer is the guy who used more weight on all 4 sets for teh dead-lift. Why? Because straight sets allows you the power to lift a greater weight-load range.

With beyond failure techniques such as reat-pause and drop sets, you’re basically breaking down less muscle tissue yet annihilating the nervous system and joints. With each subsequent set you are using fewer reps with the same amount of weight. A rest-paused set done in the 8-12 rep range cannot possibly create the same kind of strength gains that are obtained by using a straight set for 4-6 reps simply because you cannot lift heavy when training near the point of non-stop.

How can low volume advocates get around this scenario?

[IronReload04]

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[Ronnie Rowland]

a. the guy who does 4 sets with the largest amount of weight will absolutely make the most strength gains.........but thats not the argument........deadlifts are not rest paused with us, they get 2 straight sets, so for the sake of argument, lets use chest as an example, because i think i see what you are trying to get at, and for this argument, deads are not a good example...

1) Dead-lifts and squats are considered two of the best exercises for building over-all strength and size. I do not think DC will dispute this fact. And I realize the reason DC Training does not rest-pause these 2 exercises (dead-lifts and squats) is because it can cause injury to the back. If you think about it, this sides with my side of the argument in that rest-pause training is not user friendly. The way I see it, all compound movements should be treated the same. For instance, Slingshot Training takes into consideration that the shoulders are one of the most vulnerable joints in the body. More bodybuilders experience shoulder problems than other body part. Why not give over-head presses and chest presses 2 straight sets as welll since this area can be injured just as easily if not easier than the back? I feel this is a very good question!

[Ronnie Rowland]

a.

b.
-man, i really gotta find that article......but i will just talk from memory for now........when you do a set, the muscle fibers that are used kind of rotate around for most of the set........they are not all contracting, but kind of skipping around and in clusters.....now when you get close to failure, the type 2's start coming into play, and all of them contract together......so the majority of the set is some what useless to building muscle mass...its the end of the set when the type 2's start contracting and working together.....its damaging these muscle fibers that cause muscle growth......now by rest pausing, because of the minimal rest, for the second 2 mini sets, its all type 2's that are lifting the weight......so by rest pausing, you are kind of bypassing unneccisary work.......by rest pausing on the last 2 mini sets, you are placing the entire work load on the muscle fibers that have the greatest potential for hyper trophy.........the other muscle fibers that work during the first part of the first mini set, dont have much potential at all for hyper trophy....

so that is another reason behind all this




so even though, you cant handle as much power output, you are intensily fatigueing and breaking down the type 2's and other fast twitch fibers......the muscles that actually have abiltity to grow






edit- when i say type 2's, i think i also mean other fast twitch fibers also

I think we part compay in our beliefs regarding how the type 2 fibers are best stimulated. If I understand you correctly you are saying the type 2 fibers are not used much at all in a standard straight set and it's the rest-paused sets (mini-sets) that stimulate these fibers to grow. Correct?????

Here's what I have learned. The strongest not the weakest fibers like you are saying will come into play until the muscle reaches exhaustion. After the the strongest fibers of a particular muscle group fatigue, they begin to fire less while the weaker dormant fibers begin taking over and fire more!

A good example is how these large muscled boxers will always tire out faster than an opponent with smaller muscles because the larger fibers burn more oxygen. The concept behind Slingshot Training is to totally exhaust the strongest regions of the muscle with a key movement in order to open up the gateway to stimulate the dormant fibers located in lagging areas of a muscle group with a secondary exercise. Meaning you work the type-2 fibers in the strongest region of a muscle group with a key exercise and proceed to work the type-2 fibers of the lagging areas within that muscle group with a secondary exercise.

[IronReload04]

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[IronReload04]

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[Ronnie Rowland]

our beliefs regarding how the type 2 fibers are best stimulated. If I understand you correctly you are saying the type 2 fibers are not used much at all in a standard straight set and it's the rest-paused sets (mini-sets) that stimulate these fibers to grow. Correct?????


sort of.....from this article i read a while back, which i think i am remembering correctly.....the type 2's come into play as you approach failure (failure of any set, straight or whichever)......so on the last 2 mini sets, you get directly to using the type 2's.......where other muscle fibers, which do not have much potential for growth are most active at the beginning of the set (first mini), and are kind of circulating around taking turns being used....so the rest pause is brief, and hits the type 2's really freaking hard......which is why, I believe i had to go down in dumbells when going from chest to delts in dc, as opposed to doing 1 set of barbell mil in then going to dumbells in my old program

We agree in that muscle fibers are recruited for heavy loads in order from slowest to fastest! This means that if you are lifting heavy loads and are stimulating your type-2 fibers (fast twitch), then you have already stimulated your slow twitch fibers to the maximum.

The advantage of performing additonal sets or higher reps is to increase sarcoplasmic growth (about 30% of total muscle size). How do you obtain that extra 30% with such low volume?