Bush: Inaction on FISA endangers US

[thegodfather]

WASHINGTON (CNN) -- President Bush warned Friday the United States is in "more danger of attack" because Congress failed to extend legislation on domestic wiretapping laws allowing the government without a warrant to listen in on phone calls and intercept e-mails by foreign terrorist suspects that are transmitted through this country.


President Bush said he will not accept another temporary extension of the Foreign Intelligence Surveillance Act.

Bush's remarks came at the end of a meeting with Republican congressional leaders and Vice President Dick Cheney.

"American citizens must understand, clearly understand, that there still is a threat on the homeland," Bush said.

"There's still an enemy which would like to do us harm, and that we've got to give our professionals the tools they need to be able to figure out what the enemy is up to so we can stop it."

Temporary revisions to the 1978 law that regulates wiretapping are set to expire this weekend.

Democrats said the law as existed before a temporary revision in August will remain in effect and gives the administration all the authority it needs to spy on suspected terrorists.

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"He knows that the underlying 'intelligence' law and the power given to him in the Protect America Act give him sufficient authority to do all of the surveillance and collecting that he needs to do in order to protect the American people," House Majority Leader Nancy Pelosi said Thursday.

The House of Representatives and Senate are split over whether to include retroactive legal protection for telecommunications companies in a permanent overhaul. Watch Bush's comments on the FISA controversy »

After Friday's meeting, House Minority Leader John Boehner, R-Ohio, defended Republicans' desire to give the telecommunication companies immunity.

"This issue of the carriers that work with our government are increasingly concerned about their liability and increasingly concerned about whether they are going to continue to work with our intelligence officials," Boehner said.

Congress is in recess for a week starting Friday.

Bush had offered to put off the start of his planned trip to Africa "if it will help them complete their work on this critical bill," but White House spokeswoman Dana Perino later said the president would leave as scheduled Friday.

"The Democrats have made a decision that their higher priority -- over national security -- is taking another recess," Perino said.

The current laws are set to expire at midnight Saturday. The nation's intelligence agencies then will have to go to court for warrants to listen in on conversations between suspected terrorists overseas.

Intelligence officials said that it will cause unnecessary delays, but the government will be able to get permission to conduct eavesdropping through the Foreign Intelligence Surveillance Court.


Even without court permission, agents also can listen in on a suspect's calls without a warrant as long as an application is submitted within three days.

Additionally, any warrants already approved are good for a year from when the initial warrant was issued.

[thegodfather]

Anyone who thinks that telecoms should not be held liable for breaking the law, is living in a dream world. I said it, and I'll defend that position. If they truely have not broken the law, then let them have their day in court and prove it beyond all reasonable doubt. Why is that such a hard concept to grasp?

[Logan13]

Anyone who thinks that telecoms should not be held liable for breaking the law, is living in a dream world. I said it, and I'll defend that position. If they truely have not broken the law, then let them have their day in court and prove it beyond all reasonable doubt. Why is that such a hard concept to grasp?

Your ambulance chasing friends(John Edwards) would love that. I do not think that you have a grasp on the FISA bill. Do you not know that this has been around for the last 25 years in one form or another?

[thegodfather]

Your ambulance chasing friends(John Edwards) would love that. I do not think that you have a grasp on the FISA bill. Do you not know that this has been around for the last 25 years in one form or another?

I've read the bill itself, thank you. I'm well aware its been around since the 70s. However, it required a warrant from the secret FISA court. It also did not grant immunity to telecom companys for allowing the NSA to have a f**king free for all with every piece of electronic communication in the country, without having to abide by due process of law and obtain warrants in FISA court for each individual "suspect." Instead, it treated all 350,000,000 Americans who decided to make a phone call, instant message, e-mail, fax, text message, and any other concievable piece of electronic transmission as a suspect.

[soulstealer]

I've read the bill itself, thank you. I'm well aware its been around since the 70s. However, it required a warrant from the secret FISA court. It also did not grant immunity to telecom companys for allowing the NSA to have a f**king free for all with every piece of electronic communication in the country, without having to abide by due process of law and obtain warrants in FISA court for each individual "suspect." Instead, it treated all 350,000,000 Americans who decided to make a phone call, instant message, e-mail, fax, text message, and any other concievable piece of electronic transmission as a suspect.

x2...

[Logan13]

I've read the bill itself, thank you. I'm well aware its been around since the 70s. However, it required a warrant from the secret FISA court. It also did not grant immunity to telecom companys for allowing the NSA to have a f**king free for all with every piece of electronic communication in the country, without having to abide by due process of law and obtain warrants in FISA court for each individual "suspect." Instead, it treated all 350,000,000 Americans who decided to make a phone call, instant message, e-mail, fax, text message, and any other concievable piece of electronic transmission as a suspect.

If you are not discussing how to blow up a building, you have nothing to worry about. Can you give me an example of how someone that you know was "wronged" by the FISA bill, or the Patriot Act itself? I say that you can not....so what is your point?

[Kärnfysikern]

If you are not discussing how to blow up a building, you have nothing to worry about. Can you give me an example of how someone that you know was "wronged" by the FISA bill, or the Patriot Act itself? I say that you can not....so what is your point?

So you would not mind them watchin you right? Posting on a steroid board would probably be suscpisious enough for most people.

Should I be watched because I discuss nuclear technology on science boards and on bloggs and, that could aferall be considered "sensitive".

Who decideds what is reason enough?

[Panzerfaust]

If you are not discussing how to blow up a building, you have nothing to worry about. Can you give me an example of how someone that you know was "wronged" by the FISA bill, or the Patriot Act itself? I say that you can not....so what is your point?

You know I honestly have to believe you just type this kind of ****ing bullshit just to piss people off. If not, you are no more an American than a ****ing Iraqi terrorist.

WTF is wrong with you? You would give away a little freedom for security, that is plain to see. People like you do not deserve either freedom or security.

Any American with goddamn common sense should be able to see what kind of freedom bills like this trample on.

The old "I'm not doing anything wrong, so I don't care" attitude is exactly what has allowed this shit to go on for years.

The principal of the idea is what is wrong, YOU can easily be considered a "terrorist" just so they can monitor your calls etc...If you believe for one second that you are exempt from this type of treatment because you are doing nothing wrong, you are a fool.

I used to have this attitude as well, but now that I have tried to educate myself on our rights as Americans, it has hit me like a ton of bricks to finally wakeup and realise just how far they have gone at destroying our civil liberties.

This "I'm not doing anything wrong, so I don't care" attitude has got to ****ing stop. Quit playing their game people. Unfortunately for them, they do need US to cooperate with them. Fortunately for us, we can stand together and with our sheer numbers change this country. One person cannot stand up and shout "Change"..but if 1 million + stand up and shout...that will get some attention.

First we need to continue to wake people up.

[alphaman]

The issue for me here is that even though it's likely that we can currently trust the government not to abuse these powers they've given themselves... by not standing up to this, we are allowing ourselves to become vulnerable to the abuse of these powers.

Why would we do that? It's against the Constitution and the intentions of the founders. Seems to me that this..... is common sense.

[Logan13]

The issue for me here is that even though it's likely that we can currently trust the government not to abuse these powers they've given themselves... by not standing up to this, we are allowing ourselves to become vulnerable to the abuse of these powers.

Why would we do that? It's against the Constitution and the intentions of the founders. Seems to me that this..... is common sense.

If anyone has read the FISA bill and Patriot Act, there would be no need to jump to conclusions. Everyone says that they have read it, perhaps it has more to do with the ability to grasp it's content in full.

[thegodfather]

If anyone has read the FISA bill and Patriot Act, there would be no need to jump to conclusions. Everyone says that they have read it, perhaps it has more to do with the ability to grasp it's content in full.

As I stated previously I have read it. Regardless of the wording used in it, it violates the 4th Amendment. There is no way around that fact. It does not matter if none of us are directly "affected" by it, meaning that we are jailed or investigated for some reason unrelated to terror. It is the principle, it violates the 4th Amendment, and therefore it is wrong. Government is supposed to be restrained so our rights are ensured. The government in this case is overstepping its boundaries. I'm having trouble comprehending why this is so hard to understand? There is no defense to violating Constitutional amendments. A law is invalid if it violates any of those 10 inalienable rights.

[Logan13]

As I stated previously I have read it. Regardless of the wording used in it, it violates the 4th Amendment. There is no way around that fact. It does not matter if none of us are directly "affected" by it, meaning that we are jailed or investigated for some reason unrelated to terror. It is the principle, it violates the 4th Amendment, and therefore it is wrong. Government is supposed to be restrained so our rights are ensured. The government in this case is overstepping its boundaries. I'm having trouble comprehending why this is so hard to understand? There is no defense to violating Constitutional amendments. A law is invalid if it violates any of those 10 inalienable rights.

You want to have the Patriot Act broken down and explained, visit the following website:
http://www.lifeandliberty.gov/subs/add_myths.htm

[thegodfather]

Yea...lets us not forget history... Hitler was an elected leader.

[Logan13]

Yea...lets us not forget history... Hitler was an elected leader.

And who is the "Hitler" of today that you seem so concerned about?

[thegodfather]

And who is the "Hitler" of today that you seem so concerned about?

That is an impossible question to answer without my crystal ball, and Miss Cleo is serving a stint in the pen right now. I'm no more able to answer that, than the people who elected Hitlers party into office were able to predict at that time. No one could forsee such a thing coming, to that magnitude at least.

[RA]

This is just funny. We want our government to protect us from terrorists but we want to block any way for them to do so. Now we have security guards patting down little old ladies at the airport instead of arabs in their 30s. I completely understand not wanting the government to have too much power but we have to allow them to do their job. Otherwise the next time it might be 3 million instead of 3,000.

[Panzerfaust]

This is just funny. We want our government to protect us from terrorists but we want to block any way for them to do so. Now we have security guards patting down little old ladies at the airport instead of arabs in their 30s. I completely understand not wanting the government to have too much power but we have to allow them to do their job. Otherwise the next time it might be 3 million instead of 3,000.

This makes me realise just how much work this new movement of waking people up has to do.

This is not going to be easy. *sighs*

[RA]

If you speak in platitudes I cant really respond. Reminds me of an Obama speech.

This makes me realise just how much work this new movement of waking people up has to do.

This is not going to be easy. *sighs*

[SMCengineer]

Once again, how do you prevent a system from becoming corrupt if there is no public insight?

This is what I have a problem with as well. Assuming the current administration doesn't violate any civil liberities, who will gurantee that any subsequent administration will not abuse this power especially considering we are heading into leftist territory?

This is just funny. We want our government to protect us from terrorists but we want to block any way for them to do so. Now we have security guards patting down little old ladies at the airport instead of arabs in their 30s. I completely understand not wanting the government to have too much power but we have to allow them to do their job. Otherwise the next time it might be 3 million instead of 3,000.

Your impling that we had no intelligence before 9-11, which is not true. The problem is not the lack of intelligence, but the lack of analytical capabilities.

[RA]

Your impling that we had no intelligence before 9-11, which is not true. The problem is not the lack of intelligence, but the lack of analytical capabilities.

I didnt imply that at all. I implied that the more we hamstring the govt the more likely that a terrorist plot will be successful.

[SMCengineer]

I didnt imply that at all. I implied that the more we hamstring the govt the more likely that a terrorist plot will be successful.

I would agrue that the more lax we are about our own national defense, ie immigration policy, energy policies, and foreign policy the more likely it is that a terrorist plot would be succesful.

[thegodfather]

I didnt imply that at all. I implied that the more we hamstring the govt the more likely that a terrorist plot will be successful.

A change in our inflammatory foreign policy would significantly reduce the risk that people would even be motivated to carry out such attacks.

[Panzerfaust]

I didnt imply that at all. I implied that the more we hamstring the govt the more likely that a terrorist plot will be successful.

So when Americans expect their civil liberties to be protected as well as the Constitution, this is "hamstringing" the gov't ability to "protect" us?





Honeslty man, you really need to wakeup! There was tons of intellegience before 9/11 showing that an attack was imminent and how radical Muslims were being trained to fly airplanes here in the US, Bush went on vacation rather than deal with the issue. This is well documented!

Then again, by allowing the attack this created the opportunity for more governement control, of course all under the farce of "security" for US Citizens. There has always been a catastrophic occurence before any major conflict, they have all been manufactured to disguise the means by telling everyone how it is for our security, or to fight communism bla bla bla

WWII, Vietnam, 9/11 all follow the same layout. A "terrible" event occurs, the gov't then gets the publis to back their BS plans and next thing you know the war machine is in full affect.

[RA]

I would agrue that the more lax we are about our own national defense, ie immigration policy, energy policies, and foreign policy the more likely it is that a terrorist plot would be succesful.

Those things certainly need to be addressed, yes, Im not sure how that negates what I said.

A change in our inflammatory foreign policy would significantly reduce the risk that people would even be motivated to carry out such attacks.

Yes, if we pick up our chips and go home the nice, sweet terrorists will leave us alone. Oh wait, I thought thats what we did while Clinton was president.

So when Americans expect their civil liberties to be protected as well as the Constitution, this is "hamstringing" the gov't ability to "protect" us?

Make a lot of overseas calls and discuss guns, bombs, terrorist plots do ya mari? Because those are the ones getting taped.. If so I can see why your so against this.

[Kärnfysikern]

I agree with that Roid, we just have to make sure that we focus on the right things and put the money and attention where its needed!

The internet surveillance in sweden is a prime example of a moronic thing to do. Any terrorist with half a brain cell will simply download some free encryption program and that renders the whole surveillance ineffective. Total waste of money and manpower for a infinitesimal gain in security.

Two examples in the US is the shitty harbor security, you could probably smuggle 15 nukes in containerships without anyone knowing and the shitty mexican border security. All the attention on wiretaps and monitoring phone calls just brings away attention from the BIG security gaps.

[RA]

Yeah, everyone talks about Mexico but harbor security is very lax.

I do think this wiretapping is very important though. As said above its been going on for a very long time and has been responsible for stopping major attacks on the US.

I agree with that Roid, we just have to make sure that we focus on the right things and put the money and attention where its needed!

The internet surveillance in sweden is a prime example of a moronic thing to do. Any terrorist with half a brain cell will simply download some free encryption program and that renders the whole surveillance ineffective. Total waste of money and manpower for a infinitesimal gain in security.

Two examples in the US is the shitty harbor security, you could probably smuggle 15 nukes in containerships without anyone knowing and the shitty mexican border security. All the attention on wiretaps and monitoring phone calls just brings away attention from the BIG security gaps.

[Panzerfaust]

At this rate, Logan will be first in line to get his new RFID chip. I mean they are only doing it to help us, it will be so much easier for all of our info and money to be on the chip than in a bank account somewhere etc.

I wonder if this guy was anxious to get his ID?



I'm sure he thought "Awe..they cannot do that to us"...I guess he knows now doesn't he.

[Logan13]

At this rate, Logan will be first in line to get his new RFID chip.

I wonder if this guy was anxious to get his ID?



I'm sure he thought "Awe..they cannot do that to us"...I guess he knows now doesn't he.

"Tin Foil hat area"

[Kärnfysikern]

This is completely ridiculous. You are more than willing to discuss the theoretical possibility that Iran might build a nuke, but you are unwilling to discuss why emails should be checked but not ordinary letters.