WTF? high kidney values from high protein/ supps?

[akaz13]

update:

Had an ultrasound done today as part of the testing... The girl who did it, who is obviously not a specialist other than knowing how to do ultrasounds, said it looked good, no blockages...

Now that I think about it, she said she was taking some shots of my bladder... which I am sure she did, but I am pretty sure she looked at my kidneys, too...

The bladder shots were done above my navel and then she took shots along the sides, which I am sure were kidney shots, even though she didn't say she was taking kidney shots...

Anyway, if so, good thing is that there was no visible physical issues/ damage... and maybe more along the lines that muscle mass and other factors were not considered..

This says that creatinine testing can altered, if the test is done w/ in 2 days after working out:

http://health.yahoo.com/urinary-diag...e--hw4322.html

- Doing strenuous exercise 2 days before creatinine clearance test.

- Eating more than 8 oz (227 g) of meat, especially beef, in the 24 hours before a blood creatinine test and during a creatinine clearance urine test.

- High creatinine clearance. High creatinine clearance values can be caused by strenuous exercise, muscle injury (especially crushing injuries), burns, carbon monoxide poisoning, hypothyroidism, and pregnancy.

All of which a guy who works out would be doing, all of which can skew the testing...

[scibble]

Just to let you know, it's phrased wrong. These issues result in increased serum and urine creatinine values, NOT increased creatinine clearance.

Having a very high creatinine clearance would be a good thing.

[akaz13]

Just to let you know, it's phrased wrong. These issues result in increased serum and urine creatinine values, NOT increased creatinine clearance.

Having a very high creatinine clearance would be a good thing.

I just cut and pasted that part...

But I don't know that high is good, it still indicates higher than normal, but low is definitely bad tho, "Low creatinine clearance levels can mean serious kidney damage is present."

also, I didn't do the 24hr urine collection/ creatinine clearance test yet... they did do a urine dip tho...

[ausmanalot]

its ok we all have 2 kidneys if one ****s up
ill just use the other

[Gym Freak]

Just because your creatinine levels are at 1.5 that doesn't mean jack. Normal values are 0.5-1.5mg/dl. Your values are high due to the creatine more then likely. Yes protein may raise your values to some extent but it will by no means over work them unless you are consuming way more then you need for your given weight. That is why it is best to calculate your protein intake for your given bodyweight and take in that amount. My creatinine level was 1.5mg/dl when I had my bloodwork done 2 years ago. But it was mainly due to the creatine. A value of 1.5mg/dl creatinine does not mean kidney insufficiency. It is the combined high values of creatinine and BUN. Your liver and kidney's are filters so everything passes thru them. That is one of the reasons why you keep hydrated so as to keep the kidney's filtering good. If your not pissing light yellow to clear then you generally need more water. 80-90 percent of all people are dehydrated by a couple of pints at least, because they don't drink enough water. They are too busy drinking tea, coffee, or soda pop, all of which are diuretics, and energy drinks. Ever notice that your piss is yellow after a few hours of a good multi-vitamin. Creatine use has not shown to be hard on the kidney's with proper hydration and an already set of healthy kidney's. Most doctors will tell you to stop taking protein and lay off the creatine because they don't understand what bodybuilders and weight trainers need for nutrition and supplementation. Many docs now adays are taught that normal is good and anything more or less then that is bad. Your doc is only being cautious.

[akaz13]

If your not pissing light yellow to clear then you generally need more water. 80-90 percent of all people are dehydrated by a couple of pints at least, because they don't drink enough water. They are too busy drinking tea, coffee, or soda pop, all of which are diuretics, and energy drinks. Ever notice that your piss is yellow after a few hours of a good multi-vitamin. Creatine use has not shown to be hard on the kidney's with proper hydration and an already set of healthy kidney's.

I rarely drink anything other than water, and I drink about a gallon a day, more on days I work out...

Most doctors will tell you to stop taking protein and lay off the creatine because they don't understand what bodybuilders and weight trainers need for nutrition and supplementation. Many docs now adays are taught that normal is good and anything more or less then that is bad. Your doc is only being cautious.

This brings me to the update....

The day I went to the specialist, he told me that I needed to stop taking everything. I said, what are you telling me, that if I keep taking the OTC products I am going to ruin my kidney? He said, maybe...

I figured they had only one test, I would keep doing what I was doing, and see what the comming tests revealed..

I did an ultrasound and had no blockages, and the specialist said my kidneys were normal sized.

In that same call, he asked if I had stopped taking the OTC supps. I said, not really. He said, you have to stop! The blood that was drawn, the day of the visit, was higher.

It was 2.7!

So this dude had me scared as hell. I had pulled my back a little on back day, so I was associating the pull w/ my kidneys ****inhg up. So, I was worried as hell.

But then I remembered all the stuff I read online. I had worked out about 8hrs before that blood test, and I had a dose of creatine, before and after the work out. And I had eated about a pound of meat!

Any of which would have elevated the levels of creatinine in my blood.

I was wasted after DLs last week so I took a few days off... So I told him to re-order the test, I wouldn't work out and then do the test again.

He told me the test from yesterday was 1.3!

But he is still telling me to stay off the supps and the new thing from the day he thought it was 2.7, was that I couldn't even work out!

At first I was like, WTF am I going to do? This is an entire lifestyle change! Now what? This is what I do...

Now that my values are 1.3, I am going to go back to my normal routine. I just pinned, I skipped yesterday, in case it might change any blood work in any way...

I will see what the specialist has to say, but if he sticks w/ you have to stop, I will seek a 2nd opinion..

I don't want to **** my kidneys up, but clearly he doesn't know now much time, money, effort and commitment I have put into working out. They tell people to stop smoking and drinking, and I am sure that doesn't go over well.. So he shouldn't be surprised that he is really going to have to show me that I am heading toward disaster.

Had I just listened to him, and not run a search, I would be out of the game now...

I am not, for a second, going to believe that I know more than he does from an internet search, but the things I learned, he should have known and made allowances for that, factored them in, or told me that they would alter the test and done the test w/o those factors involved.

The fact that I learned those things, corrected for them, then got a better test result leads me to believe that, if it comes down to it, I will get a 2nd opinion if he presses the you have to quit thing.

[scibble]

Good for you.

I figure the nephrologist knows his stuff--within limits. I do not think he knows much about the real effects of the supps you are taking, but rather is recommending the safest course of action, but it's not going to ruin his lifestyle if you have to give up everything in your life.

Careful with the second opinion because if you just go to any "specialist" you'll get the same response--which is fine if it's based on real knowledge and experience, but not fine if a doctor is just playing it safe. you don't have to have a degree to say "lay off the workouts and supplements". Maybe seek out the opinions of some experts in sports nutrition who have experience with clients having high creatinine values related to training and so on.

[akaz13]

Good for you.

I figure the nephrologist knows his stuff--within limits. I do not think he knows much about the real effects of the supps you are taking, but rather is recommending the safest course of action, but it's not going to ruin his lifestyle if you have to give up everything in your life.

Careful with the second opinion because if you just go to any "specialist" you'll get the same response--which is fine if it's based on real knowledge and experience, but not fine if a doctor is just playing it safe. you don't have to have a degree to say "lay off the workouts and supplements". Maybe seek out the opinions of some experts in sports nutrition who have experience with clients having high creatinine values related to training and so on.

Yea, I am PO'ed that the Dr didn't tell me that or factor any of that in....

It only took about 60 hrs after my last work out, and no protein powders or much meat to alter my test back to 1.3...

And it was probably only about a day w/ no powders or meat...

All of which makes me believe that my kidneys are perfectly healthy. Not only do I have no history of kidney problems, neither does any one in my family. And high protein is not a problem unless there is a pre-existing kidney problem...

Like I said earlier in the thread, I believe that they were just giving me standard advice and not factoring in my specifics...

But, fortunately, I did a little research on my own and didn't accept it as is... no drunk or drug addict would have, so they shouldn't be surprised that people that are addicted to working out would seek more info to see if they can continue the lifestyle...

Which, I am happy to know that I am healthy as a horse, but I am surprised that he figured that telling a guy who weighs (248lb when he weighed me) to just knock it off, would go smooth...

You don't get to 250lb by just getting to the gym when and if you can, you get to 250lb by giving up a shot of a** to go to the gym if the a** can't be scheduled at the right time...

So, I don't know what he was thinking...

Anyway, my dad says that he knows a doc that specializes in sports/ nutrition.. he tried to get me to see him before when I first started thinking about gear, but I never went... so, I will see what he has to say...

[binder]

i didn't read all this crap but here's the low down:

creatinine can be elevated from dehydration or low kidney function. You could have just been dehydrated that day or had something else going on. who knows.

what i do know, protein is very had for the kidneys to filter. If you have excess protein in your diet then your body will have to filter it out to excrete it. That is very taxing on the body. You are 450-500g of protein which is crazy high. I would say you have protein in excess.

now about your values, i can't believe you went to a specialist for 1.5 creatinine value. That isn't even outside of normal ranges. normal range is 0.5-1.5. You're just on the upper end. That isn't even enough for a doctor to worry, let alone refer you to a specialist. I would be concerned on his motives behind this. Especially if you said everything else is great. A urologist wouldn't even worry about that. I frequently see patients with creatinine's over 2 which is bad. They push more fluids in them and watch their values.

Do not stop taking the BCAA's. Those wont effect it. Those are GOOD for the body. Creatine, you could drop it and see what happens but your body needs the amino's for normal function. They are easily filtered so they shouldn't strain the kidneys if you have too much of a certain amino anyways.

And for everyone that thinks protein is ok and won't raise values...i'm sure you all have degrees in physiology and understand glomerular filtration rates...or not, because if you did then you would understand how protein is hard to filter. I would go research that before saying "my baby mama's third cousin's doctor from mexico told him".

To whoever said creatinine values are related to lean body mass...not the case at all. There is no correlation between the two at all. i'm 161lbs with 5% bf right now after my recent competition. Bloodwork from last week shows i'm 0.7 creatinine. I have large patients with almost no lean body mass and have extremely high BUN and creatinine levels due to poor health.

basically in a nutshell, i would be more worried why your doctor sent you to a specialist than why your creatinine is 1.5. There has to be more behind it.

[scibble]

To whoever said creatinine values are related to lean body mass...not the case at all. There is no correlation between the two at all. i'm 161lbs with 5% bf right now after my recent competition. Bloodwork from last week shows i'm 0.7 creatinine. I have large patients with almost no lean body mass and have extremely high BUN and creatinine levels due to poor health.

First of all, you SHOULD read all the "crap" before answering.

Second, this is wrong. creatinine values most certainly ARE correlated with lean body mass. This shows confusion regarding the term "correlated". This means that there is a relationship of some kind between the two, not to exlude other factors which are additionally correlated. Thus, as mentioned above, creatinine in the serum is also correlated with poor kidney health, is correlated with dehydration, is correlated with poor cardiac health, and many others. It is inversely correlated with good kidney filtration.

Those kind of off the wall remarks previously posted are kinda scary.

[binder]

First of all, you SHOULD read all the "crap" before answering.

Second, this is wrong. creatinine values most certainly ARE correlated with lean body mass. This shows confusion regarding the term "correlated". This means that there is a relationship of some kind between the two, not to exlude other factors which are additionally correlated. Thus, as mentioned above, creatinine in the serum is also correlated with poor kidney health, is correlated with dehydration, is correlated with poor cardiac health, and many others. It is inversely correlated with good kidney filtration.

Those kind of off the wall remarks previously posted are kinda scary.

off the wall comments? what medical school did you attend? I'm sure glad I didn't take the advanced physiology that you took. I'm sorry that webMD has led you astray. You show me research proving that as lean body mass of a human increases your Creatinine values will be increased. Then prove to me how Ronnie Coleman or any olympian doesn't have a creatinine value off the charts.

[binder]

I've been thinking about this post and i believe i understand what you were talking about. If you are relating the amount of lean body mass to creatinine levels based on the amount of exercise that a person does to achieve that lbm then yes, there would be more creatinine being excreted due to the tissue destruction during workouts. That being said, someone who has a higher LBM that isn't currently working out will not justly have a higher creatinine level without other factors being involved (ie, diet).

Like when akaz worked out prior to having his levels tested and they were high, bodybuilders that are continuously doing high stress workouts with high red meat intakes will have higher levels due to those factors.

If that is how you are relating the 2 together, then yes, i can see that.

[scibble]

off the wall comments? what medical school did you attend? I'm sure glad I didn't take the advanced physiology that you took. I'm sorry that webMD has led you astray.

everyone must be very suspicious of any "facts" provided by an overly confident person who relies on a physiology class they attended, while insulting those with clinical experience.

hmmm...how best to respond?.....

:add user to ignore list: :CLICK:

[binder]

When did i say it was fact? I never said anything was a fact. Based on any research i've read and from what i've been taught on urology it is negligible. Show me some research along with error rates and alterations in diet and it can't be proven that lean body mass is by itself directly related to increased creatinine values. Most research has .05 or .10 +/- values. When you take a study that shows .1 increase in creatinine values with a gain in lean body mass you can't prove that it is actual gains over just an error rate. When fluctuations are .10 you can't give the increase accurately down to the hundreds. Also the diets of a person with a greater lean body mass will be different than those that aren't.

Creatine is a more viable problem than his lean body mass in this equation, but even still the excessive breakdown of muscle tissue due to workouts would probably be the top of the list. It shows based on the fact that his values dropped dramatically after having values tested with a longer period of rest after exercise.

If you're going to criticize my knowledge you need to explain the truths behind yours instead of just attacking what you think is the lack of my knowledge. Attacking me doesn't prove your theory correct.

also, before you decide to post some research, look at studies done on degenerative diseases. There is a nice crowd of low body mass with high creatinine values due to the destruction of tissue by the disease.

[akaz13]

When did i say it was fact? I never said anything was a fact. Based on any research i've read and from what i've been taught on urology it is negligible. Show me some research along with error rates and alterations in diet and it can't be proven that lean body mass is by itself directly related to increased creatinine values. Most research has .05 or .10 +/- values. When you take a study that shows .1 increase in creatinine values with a gain in lean body mass you can't prove that it is actual gains over just an error rate. When fluctuations are .10 you can't give the increase accurately down to the hundreds. Also the diets of a person with a greater lean body mass will be different than those that aren't.

Creatine is a more viable problem than his lean body mass in this equation, but even still the excessive breakdown of muscle tissue due to workouts would probably be the top of the list. It shows based on the fact that his values dropped dramatically after having values tested with a longer period of rest after exercise.

If you're going to criticize my knowledge you need to explain the truths behind yours instead of just attacking what you think is the lack of my knowledge. Attacking me doesn't prove your theory correct.

also, before you decide to post some research, look at studies done on degenerative diseases. There is a nice crowd of low body mass with high creatinine values due to the destruction of tissue by the disease.

I don't claim to be a dr, and before this whole event, I was completely ignorant about creatinine.

In fact, when my GCP said that my creatinine values were high, I was like, I do take a creatine supplement... I asked if they were related, his accent made me unsure of his answer..

Anyway, from what I have seen online, creatinine will tend to be higher in someone w/ more muscle mass (and the specialist, himself - aside from his other opinons - said that w/ in a certain range muscle mass can be a factor), men and a meat eater vs a vegetarian...

So muscle mass, large amounts of meat consumption, obviously creatine supplementation and strenuous excercise can/ will effect creatinine levels..

I have large patients with almost no lean body mass and have extremely high BUN and creatinine levels due to poor health.

So you're a doctor? Not talking sh*t, just asking?

In the end though, I am glad to hear that those numbers are not something that dictates that I change my work out habbits, is the best thing..

Like when akaz worked out prior to having his levels tested and they were high, bodybuilders that are continuously doing high stress workouts with high red meat intakes will have higher levels due to those factors.

The question is, is the higher reading - due to activities at the time - damaging over the long haul?

That is what I want to know?

Clearly, I don't have a real problem, as of now, as the test shows w/ more time since the previous work out. The specialist was telling me that I had to stop working out period (when he thought the reading was 2.7) b/c the muscle breakdown was too much for my kidneys to handle...

A high protein diet is not shown to be a problem to healthy kidneys - kidneys w/ a pre-existing probelm, yes...

I have seen quit a few BB'ers say that they consume 600 grams of protein a day. In the course of all this, I ran a search on BB - kidney failure. It turned up Flex Wheeler.

Flex had a kidney transplant, but it was a congenital problem, if I remember right. Either way, it was unrelated to AAS and the 600 g of protein he was taking...

Which leads me to believe that they were being overly cautious, or oddly, not extremely informed about athletes, if you can believe that about a specialist..

But w/ all the testing I have been through, I feel that I can continue what I am doing knowing that I am in great health... I am not happy about the panick they put me through, but, in the end, no harm no foul... And I needed the days off anyway, b/c my CNS was fried at the time...

[binder]

Both of my parents are doctors and i'm in clinicals so technically no i'm not a doctor yet. I still have to complete research with a doctor and have my paper published and all that wonderful stuff.

the high protein diet. If you USE all of that protein intake then no, it should not be harmful. The problems with protein is the excess that the kidneys have to filter. If you're taking in more than your body can use, then you will have to excrete it and then it becomes taxing on the kidneys. That's why huge bodybuilders can consume 600grams and not have problems. They will use that 600 grams. So yes, you are correct in that respect that high protein "technically" won't hurt you. It's the amount of excess protein you take in that does.

The problem i could see with your one test being extremely high is the high levels of tissue being broken down at that time. It was so close to a workout which would elevate the levels. Granted, there is no way to tell if that was the reason for the elevation therefore that test was tainted. Noting that your other tests were around the mid 1's i would say that is a more accurate representation of your levels and the extremely high level was an anomaly due to various factors.

Honestly if you were to test any heavy lifter's creatinine levels a few hours after workout they will be elevated. How much can't really be determined because there are so many factors affecting it.

You can take what i say or leave it. Apparently some people believe any research they find online even though there are great holes in the research (as in diets and other factors that are affecting the creatinine levels). I like to look at the whole picture when I read research papers and theories. I've been through this argument with my parents many times. My dad is a chiropractic doctor and sports medicine physician and my mother is of course a chiro and a nutritionist. Between their knowledge of sports affects on the body and how nutrition affects the body I value their opinions more than any GP i've met so far. You could imagine how closely they would monitor my bodybuilding...lol.

[akaz13]

Both of my parents are doctors and i'm in clinicals so technically no i'm not a doctor yet. I still have to complete research with a doctor and have my paper published and all that wonderful stuff.

I wasn't trying to be a smart ass, I was just asking since you said 'my patients'..

the high protein diet. If you USE all of that protein intake then no, it should not be harmful. The problems with protein is the excess that the kidneys have to filter. If you're taking in more than your body can use, then you will have to excrete it and then it becomes taxing on the kidneys. That's why huge bodybuilders can consume 600grams and not have problems. They will use that 600 grams. So yes, you are correct in that respect that high protein "technically" won't hurt you. It's the amount of excess protein you take in that does.

The two guys that I saw that say they consume 600 g, were johnnie jackson and flex wheeler, both compete at about 230lb. Branch Warren is JJ's training partner, so I would assume he uses a similar approach to nutrition...

There is a youtube vid of Ronnie Coleman talking about nutrition... he is talking about eating about 90g of carbs (pre contest) and he is drinking a whey shake, 90g of protein...

I said all that to say, that only Ronnie is 300lb. Assuming about 6 meals for Ronnie, projecting about 90g protein per meal, that is about 600g of protein. But Flex and JJ are taking in more than 2g/ protein per pound, at their BW, even at off season BW...


I know you said that you didn't read the whole thread, but I was 240lb before this cycle (my 1st cycle), I am about 250lb now depending on what time of day it is..

As I said, 1.5-2g per pound is pretty well accepted as part of a gaining diet. So that would be 360 - 480g of protein, at 240lb BW. And I am getting about 480-500g, at this point. It is not like I just pulled 500g of protein out of the air, or taking in that much as a 180 pounder.

I am not arguing the point, I am just putting 480-500g of protein into perspective. I am trying to make the most out of my cycle, so I obviously don't want to short myself on nutrition.

The problem i could see with your one test being extremely high is the high levels of tissue being broken down at that time. It was so close to a workout which would elevate the levels. Granted, there is no way to tell if that was the reason for the elevation therefore that test was tainted. Noting that your other tests were around the mid 1's i would say that is a more accurate representation of your levels and the extremely high level was an anomaly due to various factors.

Honestly if you were to test any heavy lifter's creatinine levels a few hours after workout they will be elevated. How much can't really be determined because there are so many factors affecting it.

Yea, I think we argee on the most important issue, which is that my 2.7 reading was off b/c of temporary factors, so it is irrelevant as my real reading is in the 1.3 - 1.5 area... and I am free to train, which is the most important thing to me...

I've been through this argument with my parents many times.
My dad is a chiropractic doctor and sports medicine physician and my mother is of course a chiro and a nutritionist. Between their knowledge of sports affects on the body and how nutrition affects the body I value their opinions more than any GP i've met so far. You could imagine how closely they would monitor my bodybuilding...lol.

That should be a good thing to be able to use your parents as a source of info... what were their opinions on creatinine levels?