WTF? high kidney values from high protein/ supps?

[akaz13]

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Not joking, I just went to a Universty Med Center on a referral fom my reg Dr, who ran some blood work and noticed that my kidney values were high...

I remember them mentioning creatin (not creatine.. I am not sure if that is how it is spelled) being at 1.5, he would have been happy w/ 1.3... He believes that it is the BCAA, all the protein, creatine, etc.. essentially all the supps that are necessary to maximize WO's...

He wants to run more tests, but wants me to stop using the supps, since I am healthy in every other way w/ no family history of kidney problems... the Dr that referred my told me to stop supplementing, but I blew it off..

I asked the specialist if he was saying that if they isolate the supps as the problem, if I keep taking them, can I ruin my kidneys? He said yes!

WTF? something can't be right...

I am reading a study now that says that high protein diets are not a problem to healthy kidneys, but can be a problem to already unhealthy kidneys...

I know he is a specialist, but I think he is linking the two...

Has anyone else been told that their kidney function is/ was impared by too much protein?

[Dado5]

It can happen from too much protein. Do you dring lots of water?

[akaz13]

It can happen from too much protein. Do you dring lots of water?

about a gallon, sometimes more a day...

[Pac Man]

how much protein are you taking, stats, macros, etc?

[T_Own]

creatine can hurt your kidney over time. thats part of why people suggest time off with it. especially if you don't drink enough water it doesn't get flushed out and can lead to kidney stones eventually

[Bulldog1115]

ya too much protein can kill ur kidneys..back in the 80s ...600grams of protein a day wasnt all that uncommon to the average BB and most of the were on dialysis or dead form kidney failure....its just a valuable lesson that not always more is better!

[akaz13]

how much protein are you taking, stats, macros, etc?

cals 4-5k, protein about 425- 500g.....

5'10" - 244lb

[scibble]

creatinine is also increased by total muscle mass;

so if you are huge, it will be elevated and is not a problem

also, taking creatine supp can elevate your creatinine.

i am skeptical about any concerns with kidney function. creatinine is not a direct measure of kidney health--it is just a marker which is influenced by many factors. maybe monitoring it every few months to make sure it doesn't keep going higher is a plan.

[AnimalGear]

that's weird if you're drinking enough water...taking any prescription meds that could elevate your values?

Where areyour calores/protein coming from?

[akaz13]

creatine can hurt your kidney over time. thats part of why people suggest time off with it. especially if you don't drink enough water it doesn't get flushed out and can lead to kidney stones eventually

He said, cre-at-in, not creatine, I asked if that was what he meant (reg Dr)...

The specialist, said the cre-at-in values may be high be cause of the muscle break down of a heavy weight trainer...

I will do some searches to see if there is a link between creatine and kidney function... if there is, I will drop it, b/c I just saw a study (didn't finish reading it yet) that doesn' find a link in high protein creating a kidney problem...
if there is a pre-existing problem, high protein is a problem, tho.. W/ all the high proteind diets, I shouldn't be the only person w/ high values...

I only use creatine on WO days, incidently..

ya too much protein can kill ur kidneys..back in the 80s ...600grams of protein a day wasnt all that uncommon to the average BB and most of the were on dialysis or dead form kidney failure....its just a valuable lesson that not always more is better!

I don't know dude, this study says there is no link: http://www.nutritionandmetabolism.com/content/2/1/25

[akaz13]

that's weird if you're drinking enough water...taking any prescription meds that could elevate your values?

Where are your calores/protein coming from?

no meds.. but I was taking aleve, 2 tabs, 2x fo a while.. b/c I was having bursitis in my shoulders...

I got a corto steroid shot in the left one and I feel like new! gonna get the right one done soon...

but other than that, nothing as far as meds...

I eat salmon for breakfast, pre and post Wo are shakes... other meals are tuna, steak, pork, chicken or white fish for protein...

carbs are grits (made from corn meal), rice and pasta

[akaz13]

creatinine is also increased by total muscle mass;

so if you are huge, it will be elevated and is not a problem

also, taking creatine supp can elevate your creatinine.

i am skeptical about any concerns with kidney function. creatinine is not a direct measure of kidney health--it is just a marker which is influenced by many factors. maybe monitoring it every few months to make sure it doesn't keep going higher is a plan.

I am not sure creatine and what they are talking about are the same.. I asked, but my Dr's accent kinda got in the way of his answer...

But I gathered that they were somehow different..

he did say that muscle break down could/ would elevate levels...

I don't want to have to stop woring out, but I don't want to f*ck my kidneys either.... not much point in being an alpha male if you die and can't get any (joking.. a little)..

[scibble]

creatine is the supp
creatinine is what your doctor was talking about but can't say properly

I know this, trust me.

[T_Own]

creatine is the supp
creatinine is what your doctor was talking about but can't say properly

I know this, trust me.

trust him.

but isn't creatine a creatinine derivative? or visa versa..

[JiGGaMaN]

about a gallon, sometimes more a day...

I just posted an article about how too much water can cause kidney failure. google search it if you like. massive protein and massive water will kill your kidneys over time. thats why people with impaired kidney function are told to consume <100g a day.

[akaz13]

creatine is the supp
creatinine is what your doctor was talking about but can't say properly

I know this, trust me.

Ok, I believe you.. but don't leave me hanging bro! what is the deal? how is one realated to the other and is that somehow the source of my problem?

I take creatine ethyl ester, btw...

[MercyDog]

My uncles creatinine levels reached 12.4 before he went on dialysis. Most everyone on my mothers side has either already died from kidney disease or been on dialysis till they received a donor kidney, or are still waiting on a donor while on. Actually 1.5 is not very high. I've been very lucky at my age, my last test was 1.2. Protein isn't healthy on your kidneys but without being genetically suspect it usually doesn't play much role. If you do have a family history, i.e. polycystic kidneys, ect., you are STRONGLY urged to stay away from high protein diets, especially red meats for some reason. I could be wrong but it seems I remember lots of water can make things even worse as the kidneys have to work even harder, but I'd double check this, it might be the opposite. Anyway I'm a little surprised that he thought 1.5 was reason for alarm. Might just be wanting to make an extra buck through referals. One things for sure though, trust me on this one, no-one wants to go on dialysis, it really, really, really, sux

[akaz13]

I just posted an article about how too much water can cause kidney failure. google search it if you like. massive protein and massive water will kill your kidneys over time. thats why people with impaired kidney function are told to consume <100g a day.

I know that less protein is recommend for ppl w/ already existing kideny problems, but some ppl are saying that I am not flushing the creatine... now I may be getting too much water?

[scibble]

NSAIDs like Alleve (naproxen) can raise your creatinine.
dehydration can " " .
being buff can also.
creatine phosphate converts to creatinine.

it would be a shame if this nephro ruined your bodybuilding with nonsensical warnings, that's why i'd say monitor it.

water: drink enough to quench your thirst; it's unlikely that you'll get problems with water unless you are forcing it down without thirst just to meet some artificial goal. also, don't pound just water when working out, use drinks with electrolytes.

[MercyDog]

I just posted an article about how too much water can cause kidney failure. google search it if you like. massive protein and massive water will kill your kidneys over time. thats why people with impaired kidney function are told to consume <100g a day.

ok, looks like the water theory was correct, its a no, no. I think the water consumption is more liver oriented protection. Either way I never bought into most peoples conception that diluting the blood in your urine makes you less prone to things like tren. The bloods still seeping, just more diluted, hince less color and smell.

[JiGGaMaN]

ok, looks like the water theory was correct, its a no, no. I think the water consumption is more liver oriented protection. Either way I never bought into most peoples conception that diluting the blood in your urine makes you less prone to things like tren. The bloods still seeping, just more diluted, hince less color and smell.

What in gods name are you talking about?

[akaz13]

My uncles creatinine levels reached 12.4 before he went on dialysis. Most everyone on my mothers side has either already died from kidney disease or been on dialysis till they received a donor kidney, or are still waiting on a donor while on. Actually 1.5 is not very high. I've been very lucky at my age, my last test was 1.2. Protein isn't healthy on your kidneys but without being genetically suspect it usually doesn't play much role. If you do have a family history, i.e. polycystic kidneys, ect., you are STRONGLY urged to stay away from high protein diets, especially red meats for some reason. I could be wrong but it seems I remember lots of water can make things even worse as the kidneys have to work even harder, but I'd double check this, it might be the opposite. Anyway I'm a little surprised that he thought 1.5 was reason for alarm. Might just be wanting to make an extra buck through referals. One things for sure though, trust me on this one, no-one wants to go on dialysis, it really, really, really, sux

But that is the thing, no one has kidney problems in my family...

only my cousin who had some congenital thing and his dad gave him a kidney when he was a kid.. dude is only like 5' ish as an adult.. but he is only a 1/2 cousin...

it has to be the supps in some way? if there is a creatine link, I would be more inclined to believe it b/c there should be no link to the protein in a person w/no pre-existing kidney problem..

and w/ all the ppl that eat a high protein diet.. I shouldn't be the only person w/ this..

[T_Own]

ok, looks like the water theory was correct, its a no, no. I think the water consumption is more liver oriented protection. Either way I never bought into most peoples conception that diluting the blood in your urine makes you less prone to things like tren. The bloods still seeping, just more diluted, hince less color and smell.

what?? blood? are you sure? i'm pretty sure its just ions that get flushed out and diluted. not blood.

[MercyDog]

when you get up first thing of the morning your urines darker, thats toxins and the mix seeping into your bladder from blood vessels that surround your bladder and other organs/intestines. Drink a gallon of water in say an hour and theres a higher concentration of water to toxin/blood ratio. This is why when you drink a bunch of beer for a few hours your urines crystal clear. I may not be exact on the physical properties but I've passed countless drug tests in the past using this method. There simply isn't enough time for the drug to seep from your blood into your urine, it comes back as either pass or diluted on the test. Unless of course you use b-12 and creatine. Anyway, not here for passing DT's just using it as an example.

[T_Own]

yes, but its toxins in the urine, not blood. ions, toxins, same thing

[JiGGaMaN]

But that is the thing, no one has kidney problems in my family...

only my cousin who had some congenital thing and his dad gave him a kidney when he was a kid.. dude is only like 5' ish as an adult.. but he is only a 1/2 cousin...

it has to be the supps in some way? if there is a creatine link, I would be more inclined to believe it b/c there should be no link to the protein in a person w/no pre-existing kidney problem..

and w/ all the ppl that eat a high protein diet.. I shouldn't be the only person w/ this..

There was no history of kidney problems in my family until my great aunt died of kidney failure and my grandfather also lost a kidney. its happens.

[scibble]

when you drink a bunch of beer for a few hours your urines crystal clear.

Ethanol inhibits anti-diuretic hormone (ADH) which is a hormone produced by the posterior pituitary that acts on the kidneys to retain water. So beer indirectly causes the kidneys to leak more electrolyte-free water, and you pee pee peeeee.

[ray0414]

u eat 400 to 500 grams of protien a day no wonder ur developing kidney problems.

[akaz13]

u eat 400 to 500 grams of protien a day no wonder ur developing kidney problems.

That's my point...

That is 1.5 - 2g/ per lb of BW.... That is a given for ppl that work out and are adding size..

Johnnie Jackson eats 600g of protein a day... and this says there is no link: http://www.nutritionandmetabolism.com/content/2/1/25

Now that I have a good night's sleep in me, I am going to look into the creatine link..

[akaz13]

OK, I am glad that my Dr and specalist are hypersensitive, so that assures me that they are not just going to let me fall over dead, out of no where, but...

Doing a quick search this morning I found this

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Creatinine
Men tend to have higher levels of creatinine because they have more skeletal muscle than women. Vegetarians tend to have lower creatinine levels, because vegetables contain no creatinine.

and this from the same article:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Creatinine
The typical reference ranges are 0.5 to 1.0 mg/dL (about 45-90 μmol/l) for women and 0.7 to 1.2 mg/dL (60-110 μmol/l) for men. While a baseline serum creatinine of 2.0 mg/dL (150 μmol/l) may indicate normal kidney function in a male body builder, a serum creatinine of 0.7 mg/dL (60 μmol/l) can indicate significant renal disease in a frail old woman.

More important than absolute creatinine level is the trend of serum creatinine levels over time.

The specialist asked if I was a wrestler... I told him no, I just work out a lot...

He asked why, I said, at first it was to stay in shape, now it is just for it's own sake..

He told me that creatinine would be higher in someone who has a lot of muscle breakdown, as someone who trains w/ weights would..

My creatinine levels were only 1.5, he said he would have been cool w/ 1.3, but the wiki says up tp 2.0 can be normal for a male bodybuilder! I think he is being extra cautious and just giving me stock advice, not taking into account my specifics...

I mean seriously, if you are on this site, you take working out serious! Him telling me to just lay off, which is what it amounts to if you can't take in the proper nutrition, b/c your WO is not going to go any where w/o eating right...


That is like telling a hardcore drunk to just stop drinking...

I think I am just going to stop my creatine supp, while they finish the tests they want to run (they want to collect a 24hr urine sample, to see what my creatinine clearance is, blood test and an ultrsound/ ct?)... I was still supplementing creatine while on cycle... I use EE so there is no bloat w/ it, like mono...

And when I stopped using it in the fist few weeks of my cycle, when the test e hadn't fully kicked in, I felt weak and sluggish in the gym... But some guys don't use it on cycle anyway, so no big loss there...

[ray0414]

bodybuilder or not, 500-600 grams is too much, he will pay the price one day (he might have already and we just dont know about it), the only difference is that he probably has more finances to buy him more kidneys and get proper treatment. According to my college professor the body can only process like 10 grams of protein per hour, im sure its slightly different for everyone but not that much different. so most of it is being wasted anyways. He explained why high protein is bad on the kidneys but that was a few years ago and i dont remember.

[inky-e]

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Not joking, I just went to a Universty Med Center on a referral fom my reg Dr, who ran some blood work and noticed that my kidney values were high...

I remember them mentioning creatin (not creatine.. I am not sure if that is how it is spelled) being at 1.5, he would have been happy w/ 1.3... He believes that it is the BCAA, all the protein, creatine, etc.. essentially all the supps that are necessary to maximize WO's...

He wants to run more tests, but wants me to stop using the supps, since I am healthy in every other way w/ no family history of kidney problems... the Dr that referred my told me to stop supplementing, but I blew it off..

I asked the specialist if he was saying that if they isolate the supps as the problem, if I keep taking them, can I ruin my kidneys? He said yes!

WTF? something can't be right...

I am reading a study now that says that high protein diets are not a problem to healthy kidneys, but can be a problem to already unhealthy kidneys...

I know he is a specialist, but I think he is linking the two...

Has anyone else been told that their kidney function is/ was impared by too much protein?

As a matter of fact i went to the doc today to review bloodwork and thats exactly what he said. Cut down on protein shakes and only take in protein from foods.

[akaz13]

bodybuilder or not, 500-600 grams is too much, he will pay the price one day (he might have already and we just dont know about it), the only difference is that he probably has more finances to buy him more kidneys and get proper treatment. According to my college professor the body can only process like 10 grams of protein per hour, im sure its slightly different for everyone but not that much different. so most of it is being wasted anyways. He explained why high protein is bad on the kidneys but that was a few years ago and i dont remember.

I don't want to be a dick unnecessarily, but if you don't believe in consuming lots of protein, why are you here?

AAS can't make gains out of the air you breath...

If you're using slin, for example, you need to:

http://www.steroid.com/Insulin.php
this chart tells me is that insulin can efficiently utilize a great deal of protein above and beyond what your body could normally utilize, and that if you should decide to use insulin, you should be taking in at least 2.2g/kg of bodyweight, and preferably 3-4.5g/kg of bodyweight.

Back in the day, when I was in HS, I read that you need 20g protein per meal... that that was how much you can use.... but, think about it, the more muscle mass you have the greater your demands will be.. plus intese training that will catabolise muscle mass...

burn victims have high protein needs b/c they are literally building flesh (growing massive amounts of skin)...

and some of it may be wasted, but after taking the time to train, and all the sacrifices that requires, would you rather short yourself and be at a deficit or take the steps to be at a surplus so you maximize the time spent in the gym?

[akaz13]

As a matter of fact i went to the doc today to review bloodwork and thats exactly what he said. Cut down on protein shakes and only take in protein from foods.

Damn, dude, were your kidney values high?

Or was he just giving you stock advice, and not considering your specifics, as I thought they did w/ me?

[TranscriptionFactor]

Creatinine clearance is used as a measure of kidney function, but it is not the only measure and it has a number of limitations. Having a moderately high creatinine (which is a breakdown product) does not necessarily mean you have kidney dysfunction - in this scenario it is most likely just from increased protein intake. People with kidney dysfunction are unable to clear even moderate amounts of protein waste and hence they have high creatinine levels. If you are eating a lot of protein, of course your creatinine will go up somewhat but if it is less than about 1.6 (I am not a renal specialist - this value ought to be confirmed) and more importantly, if it returns to a normal value (about 1.0) when you go back to a moderate protein diet - you are most likely ok.

Having said that, I am not sure of the long term effects a very high protein diet would have on the kidneys. Milos Sarcev says we definitely need 1g per lb., and for a BB more like 1.5-2.0gm per pound. I myself wouldn't go above that.

Many other conditions will transiently increase your creatinine such as Burns, Muscle trauma, Rhabdomyolysis (nasty) and severe dehydration to name a few (in that case your Blood Urea Nitrogen will go up much more though).

Make sure you are consuming enough water. As far as I have researched, there have been good papers out which DO NOT show any ill effect on the kidneys from CREATINE, but of course nobody knows about long term perpetual use. To be safe I would cycle that.

Cheers

[scibble]

The fact that no one has been able to confirm a relationship between dietary protein and deteriorating kidney function speaks volumes to me. I don't consider it worth the concern. Furthermore, with all the questionable --though once again, much of it still controversial--health concerns regarding use of AAS, consumption of large amounts of protein should be the least among concerns of anyone on this board.

I'd like to hear a single case of renal failure linked to someone consuming large amounts of beef, protein, and creatine. There are other things to worry about...

[akaz13]

More info that may question what the Dr's are saying...

Not that they don't know what they are talking about, but I don't believe that all factors are being considered...

http://health.yahoo.com/urinary-diag...e--hw4322.html
The amount of creatinine in the blood depends partly on the amount of muscle tissue; blood creatinine levels are generally higher in men than in women. Also, people who have large muscles, such as athletes, normally have above-average blood creatinine levels.

[ray0414]

im just saying, i dont see how 500 grams over 350 grams will make any difference besides to hurt your organs. a buddy of mine at the gym, who is a pretty big dude went to the doctor cause his kidneys were hurting him, the doctor told him it was probably from his protein shakes, the doctor said if u dont mix the shakes good enough and have chunks in the shakes its really bad for you and can hurt your kidneys. and im pretty sure he said he stopped taking the shakes and it went away.

[inky-e]

Damn, dude, were your kidney values high?

Or was he just giving you stock advice, and not considering your specifics, as I thought they did w/ me?

Kidney and liver both a little high, good news is they are lower than last time. I was juicing then.

[akaz13]

im just saying, i dont see how 500 grams over 350 grams will make any difference besides to hurt your organs. a buddy of mine at the gym, who is a pretty big dude went to the doctor cause his kidneys were hurting him, the doctor told him it was probably from his protein shakes, the doctor said if u dont mix the shakes good enough and have chunks in the shakes its really bad for you and can hurt your kidneys. and im pretty sure he said he stopped taking the shakes and it went away.

While anything can happen, that doesn't make sense...

The chunks no matter what size will still go through your stomach, intestines etc, before it hits your kidneys... You can poorly chew a steak, which is high in protein and not have a problem...

Even besides that, my shakes are not poorly mixed and full of chunks.. I use a blender or a 'blender bottle', I rarely get chunks...