Been Test C for 6 weeks now without hcg or AI...

[ecdysone]

"What is a good range for E2? Answer: one where you feel good and don't display any adverse symptoms. Might be 25...might be 45...might be 100."

Please let me reiterate; men can have "elevated" E2 and NOT present with any symptoms yet still get all of the ugly malignant results.

Yes, symptoms are a clear sign but like any other disease symptoms may not appear until the disease progresses to a late stage.

I honestly believe there are ideal ranges for E2 (TRT or not) and the Physician's who are at the top of the TRT field seem to have a solid grasp of what that "optimal" range should be...and that's good enough for me.

From an interesting recent study on the subject:

"Estrogens elicit a variety of physiological responses in men and may contribute to modulation of sexual function. In the absence of testosterone deficiency, elevations in estrogens do not appear to be harmful and estrogens may help maintain some, but not all, sexual function in castrated men. While the therapeutic use of estrogens at pharmacologic doses has been used to suppress serum testosterone, naturally occurring elevations of estrogens do not appear to be a cause of low testosterone. During testosterone repla***ent, estrogens may rise and occasionally reach elevated levels. There is a lack of evidence that treatment of elevated estrogen levels during testosterone repla***ent has benefit in terms of male sexuality."

http://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/1...726.x/abstract

[killergoalie]

From an interesting recent study on the subject:

"Estrogens elicit a variety of physiological responses in men and may contribute to modulation of sexual function. In the absence of testosterone deficiency, elevations in estrogens do not appear to be harmful and estrogens may help maintain some, but not all, sexual function in castrated men. While the therapeutic use of estrogens at pharmacologic doses has been used to suppress serum testosterone, naturally occurring elevations of estrogens do not appear to be a cause of low testosterone. During testosterone repla***ent, estrogens may rise and occasionally reach elevated levels. There is a lack of evidence that treatment of elevated estrogen levels during testosterone repla***ent has benefit in terms of male sexuality."

http://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/1...726.x/abstract

That's all fine and dandy in regards to male SEXUALITY, what about the other symptoms of low testosterone/high estrogen levels? Such as depression, moodiness, lethargy, feeling tired all the time, no energy, increased body fat levels for some etc? That report doesn't mention any of those. Sexual function isn't the ONLY thing to consider when discussing testosterone therapy etc.

[ecdysone]

That's all fine and dandy in regards to male SEXUALITY, what about the other symptoms of low testosterone/high estrogen levels? Such as depression, moodiness, lethargy, feeling tired all the time, no energy, increased body fat levels for some etc? That report doesn't mention any of those. Sexual function isn't the ONLY thing to consider when discussing testosterone therapy etc.

Did you miss this sentence: In the absence of testosterone deficiency, elevations in estrogens do not appear to be harmful

what about the other symptoms of low testosterone/high estrogen levels? Such as depression, moodiness, lethargy, feeling tired all the time, no energy, increased body fat levels for some etc?

You're mixing apples with oranges and missing the whole thrust of the study: low testosterone ≠ high estrogen, indeed two very different animals.

As has been suggested on another forum, it does appear the operative concept here is not high/low test but instead the ratio of testosterone:estradiol. As I've mentioned before, higher (or for that matter, "normal" levels) of test exert a "protective" effect against high E2 and elevated SHBG, etc.

For example, a "normal" test level of 700 ng/dL does best with an E2 <40, but it is equally likely that test levels of 1500 work fine with E2 of <90.

Individual variances in estrogen sensitivity are, of course, to be expected.

[killergoalie]

Did you miss this sentence: In the absence of testosterone deficiency, elevations in estrogens do not appear to be harmful



You're mixing apples with oranges and missing the whole thrust of the study: low testosterone ≠ high estrogen, indeed two very different animals.

As has been suggested on another forum, it does appear the operative concept here is not high/low test but instead the ratio of testosterone:estradiol. As I've mentioned before, higher (or for that matter, "normal" levels) of test exert a "protective" effect against high E2 and elevated SHBG, etc.

For example, a "normal" test level of 700 ng/dL does best with an E2 <40, but it is equally likely that test levels of 1500 work fine with E2 of <90.

Individual variances in estrogen sensitivity are, of course, to be expected.

I stand corrected. My bad. My apologies. I guess I'm just waiting for the effects of my increased testosterone levels to kick in, and hopefully the A.I. I'm taking will also soon take effect and lower my Estradiol levels enough so I stop feeling so damn tired, lethargic, and energiless A.S.A.P.!!

[ecdysone]

I stand corrected. My bad. My apologies. I guess I'm just waiting for the effects of my increased testosterone levels to kick in, and hopefully the A.I. I'm taking will also soon take effect and lower my Estradiol levels enough so I stop feeling so damn tired, lethargic, and energiless A.S.A.P.!!

No problemo, if PetrX will permit a minor diversion of his thread, you might want to check out the sticky on how long it takes for effects to be felt (can easily be >12 weeks). Good luck!

[durak]

From an interesting recent study on the subject:

"Estrogens elicit a variety of physiological responses in men and may contribute to modulation of sexual function. In the absence of testosterone deficiency, elevations in estrogens do not appear to be harmful and estrogens may help maintain some, but not all, sexual function in castrated men. While the therapeutic use of estrogens at pharmacologic doses has been used to suppress serum testosterone, naturally occurring elevations of estrogens do not appear to be a cause of low testosterone. During testosterone repla***ent, estrogens may rise and occasionally reach elevated levels. There is a lack of evidence that treatment of elevated estrogen levels during testosterone repla***ent has benefit in terms of male sexuality."

http://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/1...726.x/abstract

ECD, you could be right. But the authors are only noting a correlation not making a causal statement. Look at the Methods section...

Methods.  A comprehensive, broad-based literature review was conducted on the role of estrogens in male sexual function and testosterone deficiency.

All they did was a freaking literature review and ZERO actual studies/testing. Geez, they did not even bother to do meta-analysis that is so often done to give the appearance of a statistically significant study.

Lastly, they state During testosterone repla***ent, estrogens may rise and occasionally reach elevated levels. There is a lack of evidence that treatment of elevated estrogen levels during testosterone repla***ent has benefit in terms of male sexuality.

A lack of evidence is not proof of an alternative fact.