19-nor's? AI not needed if T kept low

[Kai Lover]

First let's take a sample cycle such as:

Week 1-10: Testosterone Propionate 25mg EOD
Week 1-10: Trenbolone Acetate 100mg EOD

I ran a similar cycle last year and I ran it without an AI, and without a DA.

The reason I didn't take an AI was because the only automatising compound was T, and I had the T so low that there wouldn't be the problem of excess estrogen. (I reckon you wouldn't need an AI until you go up to about 50mg EOD).

If I increase the 19-nor dose (e.g. Deca, Tren) then the first thing I notice is a numbness in the genitals. When I take Trenbolone Acetate, I find that this begins to happen somewhere between 150mg and 200mg EOD, so I can comfortably handle 150mg EOD of Tren A for 3 months. I could probably go up to 200mg EOD if I took a DA such as cabergoline but I think I'm fine with the relatively high dose of 150mg EOD.

For my next cycle, I'm thinking of going the whole hog, like this:

Week 1-12: hCG 200iu E3D (a steady low dose to keep my balls alive for a season)
Week 1-4: Methandrostenolone (a.k.a Dianabol) 30mg oral ED for a kickstart of water retention and strength
Week 1-12: Testosterone Propionate 30mg EOD (minimal amount for necessary bodily function)
Week 1-8: Trenbolone Acetate 100mg EOD (I can comfortably handle 150mg EOD)
Week 1-8: Nandrolone Phenylpropionate (a.k.a NPP) 100mg EOD
Week 9-12: Stanozolol (a.k.a Winstrol) 50mg oral ED
Week 9-12: Clenbuterol 20mcg ED (keeping this dose low as I've never taken it before)
Week 14-17: One month of PCT with Clomiphene and Tamoxifen (50/25/25/25 and 40/20/20/20)

The only compound in there that will raise estrogen is the kickstart of Dianabol in the first 4 weeks. I'm thinking though that the water retention (caused by raised estrogen) of Dianabol is a big part of its 'kickstart' appeal.

What do you reckon about me not taking an AI or DA for this cycle?

If I start to feel genital numbness taking Tren A and NPP together at those dosages, then I'll just lower the dose of both of them to 80mg (and then to 70mg if still problematic).

[Kai Lover]

Full blood work at week 6 (liver profile, red cell count, etc.)

Also I'll check my blood pressure and pulse at home by myself a few times a week.

[DocToxin8]

Hcg raises aromatase
DBOL raises methyl-estradiol
Test raises E2
Nandrolone does aromatize

I would at the very least have adex on hand,
and I would think estrogen will be pretty high at times during cycle here.
Whether you "get away with it" will depend on whether you do blood tests for E2 and dose AI accordingly (in which case I suspect you'll end up needing an AI), or just go by feel (bloat, hypertension, libido, etc), in which case you might tolerate it.
I have to say though;
The only real way to gauge E2 is by bloodwork.

As for DA, I don't use em, but would if I had easy access and it didn't crash with my Ritalin. Why? Cause one does usually feel better when using em, no matter what prolactin levels are.
And if you're gonna go with (trying) no AI,
then I surely would use a DA agonist with those 19nors.

[Kai Lover]

Hcg raises aromatase

I haven't heard much about this and I haven't looked it up yet. I can't imagine 200iu of hCG would produce much estrogen

DBOL raises methyl-estradiol

Is that where the water retention comes from? Is this a good thing for people wanting a 'kickstart'?

Test raises E2

Not a concern when running Test P at 30mg EOD (works out at about 105mg/wk)

Nandrolone does aromatize

From what I've been reading, it only aromatises very slightly and it shouldn't be of concern

I'm only running the Dbol for the first 4 weeks, and I actually want that water retention at the beginning.

[Back In Black]

Post a photo of yourself Kimbo, let's see why you need that many compounds.

[hollowedzeus]

Post a photo of yourself akimbo, let's see why you need that many compounds.

Hes got a video of himself as ine of his first threads doing a deadlift.

[Back In Black]

Hes got a video of himself as ine of his first threads doing a deadlift.

Yeah, that physique doesn't need even a quarter of the gear listed above.

[DocToxin8]

Post a photo of yourself Kimbo, let's see why you need that many compounds.

He doesn't IMO.
That's a high dose cycle for me as well.
Actually more than I would use.
But at least he isn't talking poetry.

[Back In Black]

He doesn't IMO.
That's a high dose cycle for me as well.
Actually more than I would use.
But at least he isn't talking poetry.

He doesn't really talk poetry doesnt Kimbo, more like bullshit

[DocToxin8]

He doesn't really talk poetry doesnt Kimbo, more like bullshit

It is BS. But he calls it poetry. Offending poets everywhere,
and that's one hard thing to do, considering there are some lousy poets out there.

[Capebuffalo]

Kimbo. Saw your video. Do you even lift bro?

[Kai Lover]

I'm also considering just doing another bread and butter cycle of Tren A @ 150mg EOD with a very low level of Test (about 70 - 100mg/wk).

Saw your video. Do you even lift bro?

Yes, I do lift.

On another note, there seems to be a rumour going around here that I am the Hollywood actress and model Kim Basinger (a.k.a Kimbo). Well it's not true. Yes I have done a nude photoshoot with my photographer friend, but I am by no means a professional model. Nor do I act. I'm not Kim Basinger, so just drop it.

[Back In Black]

Personally I think you should take as much AAS as possible and stop starting threads about cycles and just fucking do them.

[Kai Lover]

Personally I think you should take as much AAS as possible and stop starting threads about cycles and just fucking do them.

Probably won't do my next cycle until January as I'm doing another 10-day silent retreat over Xmas & New Year, and so I'll be fasting for 20 hours per day for ten days straight (i.e. breakfast at 6:30am, lunch at 11am, and no eating after noon). Not much point in trying to put on 10kg of solid beef if I'm just gonna piss it away on a 10-day fast.

I'm either gonna do my bread and butter cycle of Tren A @ 150mg EOD, or go the whole hog as described with Tren, NPP, Dbol, Winne, Clen.

[hollowedzeus]

Why are you doing a silent retreat over xmas and new year?

[Kai Lover]

Why are you doing a silent retreat over xmas and new year?

For more than one reason, but mainly because I'm still traumatised since my exgirlfriend killed herself last year. I did it in December 2013 and also December 2015.


By the way I know that estrogen can cause all sorts of problems, even cancer, but I know for a fact that I'm immune to hair loss and gyno because I've run Test and Tren both at over a gram/wk before and never had hair loss or gyno. Of course that isn't to say that estrogen wasn't causing other problems.

[DocToxin8]

Yes, look it up about the hcg raising aromatase.
That's why some TRT patients actually drop it, as they suddenly get estrogen issues they didn't have while the T dose is the same.
(That's not be interpreted as hcg being a bad idea, it's a must, just know it makes every other compound aromatize more)

Water retention from DBOL is most likely methyl estradiol yes, and it seems that it's quite hard to block the conversion to this even with AIs.
DBOL aromatizes to a very small degree, but methyl estradiol is much more powerful than E2. (With its c17 methyl group it doesn't bind to SHBG f.ex)

To what extent nandrolone aromatize is hard to say.
We know that aromatase doesn't seem to convert it to the same degree as test,
but there are other enzymes than aromatase involved in the aromatization of androgens. Also, nandrolone have progestagenic acitivity, and might even be able to interact with the estrogen receptor.
So gyno from nandrolone isn't that uncommon.

Nandrolone will (by actions listed over) enhance the estrogenic effect your circulating estrogens.

Anyway,, whatever, I'm just rambling.

[BG]

Moved to correct sub forum.

[guitarzan]

So you workout all year, take a couple cycles, then throw all your gains away by doing a 20hr fast for ten days and the end of the year? You even took so much AAS one time you fucked your liver up. I bet your body hates you....lol

[Kai Lover]

So you workout all year, take a couple cycles, then throw all your gains away by doing a 20hr fast for ten days and the end of the year? You even took so much AAS one time you fucked your liver up. I bet your body hates you....lol

Pretty much, yeah.

[DocToxin8]

Immune to gyno?
Have I mentioned that back in the day, I was training with a friend that used 2grams of test e pr week (plus 50mg drol ED for 2 months) without any estro control, and he didn't get gyno either. Bloated as fuck and hypertension yes, but no gyno. There's a "but.." coming in this story though....

Gyno can be removed and most often stopped if nipped in the bud,
so with E2 I think hypertension/kidneys/heart would be MUCH more important.

Hair loss is a matter of genetic predisposition.
(But it doesn't have to be just yes/no, there's also some "maybe's" involved there IMO)

Not eating for 20hours sounds like the perfect thing to do during PCT,
then you can set new records in how fast you lose it all.
(I know some have had success treating high cholesterol with intermittent fasting, but it was nowhere as extreme as not eating for 20hours.
But if it's a spiritual thing then do what you like.)

[Kai Lover]

(I know some have had success treating high cholesterol with intermittent fasting, but it was nowhere as extreme as not eating for 20hours.
But if it's a spiritual thing then do what you like.)

You might say it's a spiritual thing, it's a Buddhist silent meditation course. 10 days of silence. I've done it twice before.

I might ask them if I can drink a litre of Protein Milk at 2pm, 5pm, 7pm, 10pm. That would be an extra 200g of protein per day. Note that there's absolutely no exercise at all, you just sit and meditate all day for 10 days straight.

[hollowedzeus]

You might say it's a spiritual thing, it's a Buddhist silent meditation course. 10 days of silence. I've done it twice before.

I might ask them if I can drink a litre of Protein Milk at 2pm, 5pm, 7pm, 10pm. That would be an extra 200g of protein per day. Note that there's absolutely no exercise at all, you just sit and meditate all day for 10 days straight.

Its not silent if you ask and its not a fast if you drink protein

[Capebuffalo]

Its not silent if you ask and its not a fast if you drink protein

His whole on line persona is a sham.

In the video he posted he looks about 5-9 and 160lbs after running all his crazy cycles. I don't believe a word he says.

[Kai Lover]

His whole on line persona is a sham.

In the video he posted he looks about 5-9 and 160lbs after running all his crazy cycles. I don't believe a word he says.

5'3" and 145 lbs.

I've run 8 cycles. Haven't maintained size or strength because I've been in an out of rehabs and unable to maintain a routine or a diet. I think this has changed now though as I'm up at 5:25am on weekdays and I cycle an hour to be at the gym for about 7ish. I'm cooking all my own food and keeping my apartment clean. I reckon I can maintain size and strength from here on in.

For my next cycle I'm going to weigh myself each morning after I take a dump, and also take two daily photographs in the same location with a camera on a tripod, so I'll be able to blend the photos into each other to see the difference over 3 months.

Judging by how my last cycle went, in 12 weeks I'll probably go from 145lbs up to 165 lbs, and then two months after I've finished PCT, I'll probably have settled around 155 lbs. And I hope to maintain that extra 10 pounds until my next cycle about 6 months to a year later.

I'm not going to cycle again until January as I'm doing another 10-day fast over Christmas and New Year. Plus I need to get a fulltime job between now and then if I want money to pay for a decent diet.

[Kai Lover]

Its not silent if you ask and its not a fast if you drink protein

I'll ask them before the gong is rung to begin noble silence.

You're right, I won't be fasting. I'll still be meditating for 10 hours a day though for 10 days straight, with no conversation, no eye contact, no hand gestures. You're not allowed masturbate either.

[hollowedzeus]

I'll ask them before the gong is rung to begin noble silence.

You're right, I won't be fasting. I'll still be meditating for 10 hours a day though for 10 days straight, with no conversation, no eye contact, no hand gestures. You're not allowed masturbate either.

Pfft ive went months without having a tug at 18

[DocToxin8]

I'll ask them before the gong is rung to begin noble silence.

You're right, I won't be fasting. I'll still be meditating for 10 hours a day though for 10 days straight, with no conversation, no eye contact, no hand gestures. You're not allowed masturbate either.

U know, nobody asked whether you were allowed to masturbate either.
I think most of us would pretty much take it for granted that you just don't do that when meditating in a group.
(Well, unless that group is your local swingers club,
of which I doubt they'd let you into anyway)

But thanks for making it dumb enough for you to fit in.

[Capebuffalo]

What are your stats? How many cycles have you run?

[MuscleScience]

I wish I had powers to close threads

[guitarzan]

So you do spiritual retreats, as well as fetish and swinger parties?

[hollowedzeus]

So you do spiritual retreats, as well as fetish and swinger parties?

Hes a modern saint not a traditional one. Handjobs are allowed.

[Kai Lover]

So you do spiritual retreats, as well as fetish and swinger parties?

I went to fetish parties and one swingers party when I had issues. Unlikely that I'll ever go back unless I'm going back to help people who are severely messed up.

As for spiritual stuff, well this year I did a 3-day meditation course, and also a 3-day Christian discipleship course. In the past I lived in a temple (hare krishna) and did longer meditation courses (10 days of silence).

yeah, I just noticed the only thing on your calendar was
"3" days not jerking off
"IGR" or something; probably group therapy, no shame in that though
"X" and "SIGN" ; I guess you take which day of the week it is very serious.

The IGR is 16R for 16 rounds chanting hare krishna.
X are the days I masturbated.
SIGN is the days I needed to attend my local Jobs & Benefits Office.

when they found out 5HT2A antagonism was an important marker for antipsychotic potential.

If you sedate a person, they won't think as much. That isn't curing anything or treating anything -- they are literally sedating the person so that the person will think less. Then they have the audacity to call it an 'antipsychotic'. It's not. It's a major tranquiliser.

I'm only in favour of using the likes of Olanzapine long-term if the psychosis has a medical root such as a brain tumour.

I've never masturbated in a meditation group or hall.

-but it has obviously entered your mind?
I'm not one to judge; except I like fucking more.

I've never contemplated masturbating in a group meditation hall.

I've been to fetish parties and also a swingers party. Got handjobs but didn't masturbate.

-no, somebody did it for you. I'm happy for you man!

You start your statement with 'no' as if to contradict me. Not sure where you're going with that.

[DocToxin8]

I went to fetish parties and one swingers party when I had issues. Unlikely that I'll ever go back unless I'm going back to help people who are severely messed up.

I don't think you should use the term "Had issues" in past tense,
Just sayin'


As for spiritual stuff, well this year I did a 3-day meditation course, and also a 3-day Christian discipleship course. In the past I lived in a temple (hare krishna) and did longer meditation courses (10 days of silence).



The IGR is 16R for 16 rounds chanting hare krishna.
X are the days I masturbated.
SIGN is the days I needed to attend my local Jobs & Benefits Office.

So you did masturbate the same day you had 3 days off from it?
You know, perhaps not being so preoccupied about whether you do that or not would be better, just go with the flow man. Hehe, not literally speaking!



If you sedate a person, they won't think as much. That isn't curing anything or treating anything -- they are literally sedating the person so that the person will think less. Then they have the audacity to call it an 'antipsychotic'. It's not. It's a major tranquiliser.

I'm only in favour of using the likes of Olanzapine long-term if the psychosis has a medical root such as a brain tumour.

You couldn't pay me enough to take those drugs, so I get what you're saying,
but I've seen some people who need em.
Hmmm, speaking of which... you feeling sane right now?




I've never contemplated masturbating in a group meditation hall.

You are full of suprises!
but don't stress, you're secret is safe with me.
I just fucked a woman I wasn't even attracted too, so I as I said, I'm not one to judge!



You start your statement with 'no' as if to contradict me. Not sure where you're going with that.

I start my statements with lots of stuff, maybe I wasn't going anywhere,
maybe I was going back to your mother,
or just maybe I was going too far.

[charger69]

Let's see......what was this thread about?

[Kai Lover]

I don't think you should use the term "Had issues" in past tense,
Just sayin'

You take insulin, right?

So you did masturbate the same day you had 3 days off from it?
You know, perhaps not being so preoccupied about whether you do that or not would be better, just go with the flow man. Hehe, not literally speaking!

Look more closely at the photograph.

You couldn't pay me enough to take those drugs, so I get what you're saying,
but I've seen some people who need em.

You take insulin, right?

Hmmm, speaking of which... you feeling sane right now?

You take insulin, right?

I just fucked a woman I wasn't even attracted too, so I as I said, I'm not one to judge!

I found SLAA very helpful when I was a sex addict. I also had a one-to-one counselor. If you were to attend your first meeting, you might come home and reconsider the whole insulin thing.

[DocToxin8]

You take insulin, right?

Look more closely at the photograph.



You take insulin, right?



You take insulin, right?
ive dabbled a bit with it yeah. Do know my way around it.


I found SLAA very helpful when I was a sex addict. I also had a one-to-one counselor. If you were to attend your first meeting, you might come home and reconsider the whole insulin thing.

What's sex addiction got to do with insulin?
It's awful to get hypo symptoms during sex,
it's like "shit, how to put this delicately; I need to take a break, cause, uhhh..."

Anyway, not a sex addict... I'm just a little addicted to having sex, that's all.

But what's your point about insulin?
That it can kill you, or worse; fry your brain?
If so I totally agree, people must be extremely careful with insulin.

Or is your point that you don't take insulin (which is good),
just gigantic cycles of AAS? (Not so good, but better than if you were also taking insulin)