Killing their own people for the most retarded things like not wearing a head dress, and losing a soccer game...Yes their are a peacful people..
"T-MOS WILL LIVE THROUGH US FOREVER"
Killing their own people for the most retarded things like not wearing a head dress, and losing a soccer game...Yes their are a peacful people..
I feel accomplished
I feel accomplished
So buff this is the type of religious freedom they should allow in Turkey?
http://www.asianews.it/view.php?l=en&art=2134
Saudi Christian convert arrested and jailed
Jeddah (AsiaNews) – A Saudi citizen converted to Christianity has been arrested and jailed. Emad Alaabadi was taken into custody last November 29, at Hofuf, a town in eastern Saudi Arabia, but the news was reported only a few days ago by the International Christian Concern (ICC), a Washington-based human rights group. AsiaNews local sources have confirmed the report, and also say that he "is not the only Saudi Christian in jail at the moment: there are also others".
According to news obtained by ICC, other Christians – at least 3 or 4 – appear to have been arrested along with Emad. The presence of Christians in Saudi prisons had also been confirmed by Brian O'Connor, in an interview with AsiaNews. Brian Savio O'Connor is a Protestant Indian who was deported from Saudi Arabia after being tortured and held in prison for "having preached Christianity". Upon his return to India, O'Connor told AsiaNews that "there are still many other Christians that need your help in Saudi prisons".
Last November 29, Amad was intercepted by the Muttawa, Saudi religion police, while he was driving his children home from school. The police escorted them home and then took Amad to the local prison. Later he was transferred to Jeddah, were he is currently imprisoned. On December 4, he managed to contact his mother, who lives in Australia, by telephone, to let her know what had happened and where he was. The mother reported that he sounded very weak: ICC said that the Muttawa agents probably tortured the Christian-faith Amad to reconvert him to Islam.
Alaabadi is 30 years old and has 4 children. He became Christian 2 years ago, but it is not known to what denomination he belongs.
Fundamentalist Wahhabi Islam is the only expression of religion allowed in Saudi Arabia. There is no religious freedom in the country, even if Saudi officials have been tolerating the private practice of other religions. However, the Saudi religion police, the Muttawa, continues to persecute Christians in their homes where they meet to pray.
The construction of churches or chapels is not allowed in the country. Muslims make up 93.7% of the Saudi population of 21.6 million people. Christians, who are almost entirely foreigners, account for 3.7% of the population. There are 800,000 Catholics. There are no exact figures on the number of Saudi Christians. (LF
Senior Member
Kratos, you are overwhelming me with your rapid fire posts. By the time I reply to one post, you've already fired off another two. Sigh. Ok, here goes...
Senior Member
Kratos, the way you have pathetically misquoted the Quran angers me. I am going to slam you back. Just you wait for my response. Just you wait.
CHEMICALLY ENGINEERED
Buff, just keep it to a few paragraphs please haha
looking forward to it.
Senior Member
Oh don't worry, I'm not going to reply in an intellectual manner. I am going to use the same sophomoric tactics that Kratos uses. In other words, I'm just going to sling mud in a sensationalist way. Does Kratos think that he is the only one blessed with google? You don't think I can google a bunch of Anti-Christian websites and just copy/paste loads of crap here?Originally Posted by xlxBigSexyxlx
Buff, just keep it to a few paragraphs please haha
looking forward to it.
Senior Member
Let's play Kratos's game. I guarantee that you will lose, Kratos. I will now respond to fire with fire. You talk about the Quran (taking verses out of context and with wrong translations)...let's now look at your holy book, the Bible. The gloves are off. Let's begin:
Here is what the Bible says about people who believe in a god other than the Christian one:
Exodus 22:20 "He that sacrificeth unto any god, save unto the LORD only, he shall be utterly destroyed."
Instruction to murder any of your relatives or friends if they spread other religious faiths:
Deuteronomy 13:6-10 "If thy brother, the son of thy mother, or thy son, or thy daughter, or the wife of thy bosom, or thy friend, which is as thine own soul, entice thee secretly, saying, Let us go and serve other gods, which thou hast not known, thou, nor thy fathers; Namely, of the gods of the people which are round about you, nigh unto thee, or far off from thee, from the one end of the earth even unto the other end of the earth; Thou shalt not consent unto him, nor hearken unto him; neither shall thine eye pity him, neither shalt thou spare, neither shalt thou conceal him: But thou shalt surely kill him; thine hand shall be first upon him to put him to death, and afterwards the hand of all the people. And thou shalt stone him with stones, that he die..."
Let's talk about religious tolerance. Let's see what the Bible says on how to treat a city of people who follow another religion...in fact, it says to massacre the entire city:
Deuteronomy 13:12-15 "If thou shalt hear say in one of thy cities, which the LORD thy God hath given thee to dwell there, saying, Certain men, the children of Belial, are gone out from among you, and have withdrawn the inhabitants of their city, saying, Let us go and serve other gods, which ye have not known; Then shalt thou inquire, and make search, and ask diligently; and, behold, if it be truth, and the thing certain, that such abomination is wrought among you; Thou shalt surely smite the inhabitants of that city with the edge of the sword, destroying it utterly, and all that is therein, and the cattle thereof, with the edge of the sword."
If you worship other than the Judeo-Christian God, you are to be killed:
Deuteronomy 17:2-5 "If there be found among you, within any of thy gates which the LORD thy God giveth thee, man or woman, that hath ...gone and served other gods, and worshiped them, either the sun, or moon, or any of the host of heaven, which I have not commanded; And it be told thee, and thou hast heard of it, and inquired diligently, and, behold, it be true, and the thing certain, that such abomination is wrought in Israel: Then shalt thou bring forth that man or that woman, which have committed that wicked thing, unto thy gates, even that man or that woman, and shalt stone them with stones, till they die."
The Bible instructs to murder the leaders of other religions:
1 King 18:19; 18:40 "Now therefore send, and gather to me all Israel unto mount Carmel, and the prophets of Baal four hundred and fifty, and the prophets of the groves four hundred, which eat at Jezebel's table....And Elijah said unto them, Take the prophets of Baal; let not one of them escape. And they took them: and Elijah brought them down to the brook Kishon, and slew them there."
The Bible encourages to destroy the religious temples of other faiths:
2 Kings 11:18: "And all the people of the land went into the house of Baal, and brake it down; his altars and his images brake they in pieces thoroughly and slew Mattan the priest of Baal before the altars...More murder of whoever does not conform to the faith:
2 Chronicles 15:10-15 That whosoever would not seek the LORD God of Israel should be put to death, whether small or great, whether man or woman. [The LORD] was found of them: and the LORD gave them rest round about."
Here is another list provided from an anti-Christian website, which "explains" how the Bible says to kill all those who do not worship the Judeo-Christian god:
You must kill those who worship another god. Exodus 22:20
Kill any friends or family that worship a god that is different than your own. Deuteronomy 13:6-10
Kill all the inhabitants of any city where you find people that worship differently than you. Deuteronomy 13:12-16
Kill everyone who has religious views that are different than your own. Deuteronomy 17:2-7
Kill anyone who refuses to listen to a priest. Deuteronomy 17:12-13
Kill any false prophets. Deuteronomy 18:20
Any city that doesn’t receive the followers of Jesus will be destroyed in a manner even more savage than that of Sodom and Gomorrah. Mark 6:11
Jude reminds us that God destroys those who don’t believe in him. Jude 5
Don’t associate with non-Christians. Don’t receive them into your house or even exchange greeting with them. 2 John 1:10
Shun those who disagree with your religious views. Romans 16:17
Whoever denies “that Jesus is the Christ” is a liar and an anti-Christ. 1 John 2:22
Christians are “of God;” everyone else is wicked. 1 John 5:19
The non-Christian is “a deceiver and an anti-Christ” 2 John 1:7
Anyone who doesn’t share Paul’s beliefs has “an evil heart.” Hebrews 3:12
False Jews are members of “the synagogue of Satan.” Revelations 2:9, 3:9
A Christian can not be accused of any wrongdoing. Romans 8:33
Oh and there's much more. Do you want any more? It's very easy to use your tactics, and just go to random anti-this or anti-that websites.
As a side-note, I don't encourage this sort of un-intellectual discourse. I'm just using your medicine on you.
AR-Elite Hall of Famer (RETIRED)
Sorry, Buffed, fail.
Quoting several verses from the OT, and claiming that it is somehow Christian is wrong in so many ways...and you know this.
If you want to "mud sling" with Christian verses, show me any, any verses from the NT advocating the murder of a non-Christian.
Senior Member
No Derek, not fail. You can't make up the rules of debate here.
First of all, I am just mud-slinging here. I am not actually trying to claim that the religion of Christianity is murderous or intolerant or this or that. I am only using the tactic of Kratos back at him.
You don't think that we Muslims also have proper understandings of the verses he (mis)quoted and mistranslated, totally out of context?
I don't *actually* think your religion teaches to kill non-believers. But do you actually think mine does? If so, you are guilty of a horrible double-standard, whereby you don't mind using a random string of half-quotes when it is against Islam, but when it is against Christianity, then suddenly it's off limits. You must apply the same standard to both.
Furthermore, we've already discussed this issue before, Derek. You as a Christian cannot shield yourself from the Old Testament entirely. The fact of the matter is that your God commanded the believers to do certain things. Regardless of if those things were abrogated, it still comes into play in a polemical debate. Look at it this way: let's pretend if Prophet Muhammad [s] butchered a million people. (He didn't, but I'm just saying, hypothetically.) But then when you guys point that out, I would say "no no, that law of butchering was abrogated by the law of mercy." Do you think this would neutralize the issue? Of course not. The fact of the matter is: why did he [s] kill those millions of people before the law was abrogated? (Of course, this is all hypothetical, since the Prophet Muhammad [s] didn't kill millions of people, and I seek refuge from uttering such a thing.)
So the issue is the same here. Why did the Judeo-Christian prophets kill so many people of other faiths? Why did the Judeo-Christian God command them to do that?
Again, you can't get off that easy.
Furthermore, the debate was not simply about killing non-believers. In fact, Kratos didn't quote any verse in the Quran that said to kill non-believers (since there isn't any). It was about making the Quran out to be an intolerant book in general. So I quoted many verses from the New Testament that come across as intolerant (if placed in a list rapid fire manner, as Kratos arranged them).
And again, you can't decide to exclude the OT. That's fair game. It doesn't make logical sense to say it's off limits. Even if it was all abrogated, the fact is that your Judeo-Christian prophets did such and such on the commands of your Judeo-Christian God.
But again, I don't like this style of polemical debate to begin with. I rather like studying these matters in intellectual and academic ways.
In the Care of the Lord,
-Saladin.
Last edited by BuffedGuy; 03-25-2009 at 09:18 PM.
I feel accomplished
I'm not religious so it isn't my book, hack it up all you want
Anabolic Member
You might want to put the gloves back on because this thread inevitably will end up being locked.
I feel accomplished
Or maybe you ment religious freedom like this buff?
http://archive.newsmax.com/archives/...9/155943.shtml
I feel accomplished
Muslims sure are nice to other religions in non-secular countries
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worl...n-in-Iran.html
Senior Member
And for the record, I've already responded to many of the Quranic "quotes" you gave. It's in my Ask a Muslim thread. I'll respond to each of them though. Just need some time. In any case, I've already linked everyone to the Oxford translation of the Quran. So whoever wants to read the Quran to see what it is about, please do so. I encourage that. Here is the link to read the Oxford translation of the Quran:
http://www.mediafire.com/download.php?nkey2yqygyq
Kratos, I really dislike the style you have adopted. It does not help anyone.
Last edited by BuffedGuy; 03-25-2009 at 09:04 PM.
I feel accomplished
Buff, you haven't responded at all to the way Muslims are to other religious groups in secular countries nor have you responded to their distruction of artifacts I posted on the first page. This is why Isreal should remain as it is, as the record for the care of Muslim places and things is unbleamished. Muslims are allowd access to their holy places. The refugees, oh well, gotta break some eggs to make an omlette sometimes.
End of story
I feel accomplished
bible quotes you picked are pretty lame dude
you just said what you felt like and put a number after most of them
Senior Member
Umm, meanwhile you mistranslated verses entirely. And I didn't write that up for the Bible. I just copied/pasted from anti-Christian websites, just like you copied/pasted from anti-Islam websites. I personally would never write in such a sophomoric and sensationalist manner. And I included tons of actual quotes. Go learn to read first. The list with paraphrasing came afterward.
Last edited by BuffedGuy; 03-25-2009 at 09:20 PM.
I feel accomplished
lets get our heads out of history and our asses for a min buff as I already concided the Ottomans to be progressive for their time.
Christians and Jews moved forward
Muslims, I'll let you fill in the blanks on where the Muslim world is on acceptance
Senior Member
Good. I'm glad your google research confirmed that.
Do you have any idea why?Christians and Jews moved forward Muslims, I'll let you fill in the blanks on where the Muslim world is on acceptance
It's like judging blacks for all that goes on in Africa.
The fact is that the post-colonial world is wayyyy behind in ALL aspects. Hmmm, I wonder why! Once you colonize a land for hundreds of years, don't expect them to be up and running right away. Do you know that many Muslim countries only got independence very recently? It took America two hundred years to treat blacks like human beings. Just in the sixties, Americans were hosing down blacks on the street.
Get some perspective dude.
The fight for the rights of Non-Muslims in Muslim lands is on. My own favorite Islamic priest that I follow has dedicated his life to it. It will take time and a lot of effort. Just like the civil rights movement didn't happen overnight.
And by the way, you said "jews and christians" have moved on. Christians have progressed a lot on this matter, but not Jews. The Zionists of Israel are way more oppressive of non-Jews than Muslims are of Non-Muslims.
Last edited by BuffedGuy; 03-25-2009 at 09:27 PM.
I feel accomplished
Haha, yeah my google research. No dude, everything I said was true. It just sucked even worse to be a Jew or other religion in Europe at the time. Just cause one place sucks more than another doesn't make the place that sucks less a great place to live.
Does it matter why pertaining the topic at hand?
So you agree, the Muslim world is a mess and they shouldn't be given control of Isreal. See that wasn't so hard.
And why don't you get some perspective
one has nothing to do with the other
fundamentalism is spreading like a cancer to the religion
Senior Member
First of all, your argument is retarded. The fundamentalist extremism that is surging in Muslim lands is *because* of the Israeli and Western occupations of Muslim lands. So the cause of the "cancer" was the colonial "radiation".
Secondly, we're not talking about giving Palestine control of Israel. Please try staying on point here. The Palestinian people as a whole--and myself included--have said we just want a Palestinian state, side-by-side with the Israeli state. So you are moving the goalposts altogether. The issue is not "should the Palestinians rule Israel", but rather: "Should the Palestinians be able to rule themselves" or--worded another way--"Is the Israeli colonization of native Palestinian land justified?" Or another way: "do we believe in international law, the right of return, the Geneva conventions, and popular sovereignty?"
Thirdly, you are wrong altogether about the Jews in Muslim lands. If you had learned stuff from history books--instead of from the internet--you would know that Jews had their Golden Age under Muslim rule. They did not just survive under Muslim rule; they flourished and thrived. This is attested to by the Orthodox anti-Zionist Jewish groups themselves, and accepted by neutral academics who have no agenda.
Peace.
I feel accomplished
Life wasn't all that, it was just better then elsewhere. They were still second class citizens. They did OK though.
Senior Member
In any case, this thread was about Palestinians. The argument that Muslims have been oppressive and hence it is justified to oppress Palestinians is as inane as saying that it was ok to decimate the Native Americans since they were "barbaric" and "intolerant/cruel savages" before the Europeans arrived. It's as inane as saying that the enslavement of blacks by whites was justified because the blacks took their own as slaves, or took others as slaves.
These are horrible arguments. Nobody would tolerate them when it comes to anyone other than Muslims/Arabs.
I feel accomplished
won't be the first time people were displaced, won't be the last time
injustice is part of history
lets move forward
for now the mosques and artifacts important to your religion are safe
this is what we have to work
Senior Member
Umm, no. If the Soviet Union invaded and occupied Florida...and if Flordian Americans had fought back for 60 years to repel the Soviet invaders...do you think they would just give up in 60 years? Do you think anyone would be saying "oh well, people are displaced all the time."
The reality is that you only think that of "brown people" who to you are just like animals. Sure, they get displaced; doesn't that stuff happen all the time in those animal lands of Africa and Asia?
But if it happened to any white people in America--to Americans--then suddenly it's a different story. You know it.
When 9/11 happened, should we say: "that's war. People die all the time." ? Did Americans say that? No. But when it's brown people, then hey, it's ok. If 2,000 Americans die, then all hell must break loose. If 2,000 brown sand n***ers die, then who the hell cares. It's just population control.
Furthermore, your argument that our mosques and artifacts are safe is completely incorrect. Masjid al-Aqsa--the third holiest mosque to Muslims--is under constant threat of being built over by Israeli buildings.
I feel accomplished
oh really, you're being dramatic-
Senior Member
The Palestinians on the ground have issued statements that this is the case. I certainly can't prove it. But Israel has demolished THOUSANDS of Palestinian homes and THOUSANDS of mosques, so I don't think this is that out there. By the way, the Dome of the Rock mosque is NOT Al-Aqsa mosque.
I feel accomplished
well they can't even fix a walkway damaged by and earthquake without it making international news. I understand this is a sensitive site, but the outrage from the muslim community is a bit much. I'm sure the press will keep them honest.
http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/new...cle1350273.ece
Senior Member
When Israel invades Gaza, it does so to "kill terrorists." When Israel demolishes homes, it is "clearing illegal housing settlements" or "removing structures built without a building permit." This is the typical language used by Israelis to justify their land-clearing operations.
Therefore, if Israeli bull-dozers came near the Al-Aqsa mosque, I doubt Palestinians would trust them with their "we're here to repair a walkway" excuse.
Plus, the issue was this (mentioned in the article you quoted):
The Waqf religious trust in Jerusalem, which administers the site, accused Israel of undermining the foundations of the Al-Aqsa compound. Adnan Husseini, the Waqf chairman, said he first learned about the construction plans through media reports and warned the police and Jerusalem city council that the plan would spark fierce opposition.The Waqf trust says that they were not informed about any of this, which puts Israel's intentions to question.
I certainly don't trust Israel. Not one bit.
I feel accomplished
I don't expect you to, it's your history and you have a right to that.
Member
here is another terrorist from gitmo speaking of the welcome he has recieved from the soldiers at gitmo.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qXLDtAYm6SI
Member
Another gitmo prisoner who got released with no charges.
I still don't get it, if they claim that this people are terrorists then why there isn't a genuine court, why r they being stripped from their rights as a human being, why r they being released with no charges, why can't they have the right to meet with their lawyers. why..why....????
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TQ_uB...eature=channel
I feel accomplished
There is no acceptable soloution to the Muslim world that doesn't include dispersal/genocide/conversion of all Jews in Israel.
Member
Quoted for truth
Senior Member
Please stop talking nonsense. Hamas are some of the most radical Muslims out there, and they have said that they do not want a genocide, expulsion, or forced conversion of Jews in Israel. Rather, they have said that they want a two-state solution, a Palestinian state side-by-side with an Israeli one. The vast majority of Palestinians want peace with Israel.
The vast majority of the Muslims want this sort of solution. Nobody wants this 'dispersal/genocide/conversion' nonsense you are talking about. Even the *MOST* radical Muslims who will only be happy with a one-state solution under Palestinian control say that the Jews can live there as citizens under the Islamic state.
But again, the majority of the Palestinians and Muslims want a two-state solution. This includes the Palestinian people who signed a document to this effect, which included even the radical Hamas members.
You have lost all your credibility. You are a complete bigot, who speaks utter nonsense.
In fact, you blathering bigot, it is many of the Israelis--since the creation of the state of Israel--who want the expulsion of all Arabs from Eretz Israel. This has been stated by Israeli prime ministers themselves. The fact that you don't realize this testifies to your poor grasp of the issues. It also proves your bigotry. You keep crying about Muslims calling for an expulsion of Jews and yet are completely oblivious of the very real Israeli intention to expel Arabs, something which they have actually enacted.
Last edited by BuffedGuy; 03-26-2009 at 03:00 PM.
I feel accomplished
the two state soloution is a farse and you know it
what does it solve?
just give us a little, just give us a little (until we have the whole thing)
which state controls the temple mount under this soloution?
Because in your opinion and in the opinion of many Arabs, Israelis want the expulsion of all Arabs, hasn't made it so. You are speaking about opinions of people you've never met and not their actions.
No, I am not a bigot, I totally support your religious freedom and respect your views. I don't feel that this is a soloution that would work in practice. I know you are very smart and well read and the way you practice your religion is respectful of others. I tend to oversimplify things, at times to make a point. But, I haven't earned your name calling. How many times have you called me ignorant and told me I don't understand in this thread?
Senior Member
Yes, you are a bigot. And no, just supporting my religious freedom does not mean you are not a bigot. You are a bigot because you say things like: "All Muslims want the genocide of Jews." Imagine if I said: "All Jews are bent on world domination." Sorry, these are bigoted statements.No, I am not a bigot, I totally support your religious freedom and respect your views.
This also shows your bigotry. Right now, Israel has 100% of the land, yet you do not say anything against them. But when Palestinians demand 50% (which by the way was granted to them by the United Nations and international law), suddenly you say things like "they are just using this as a ploy to get the whole thing back." Ummm, sherlock: Israelis already have the entire thing, so why no criticism of them? Even if the Palestinians have the intention (as you so claim), they didn't actually do it. Meanwhile, the Israelis had the intention and THEY DID IT, yet no criticism from you.
So sorry, you are a bigot. You apply two different standards: one for the Judeo-Christian peoples, and one for Muslims. Alas, I'm used to this bigotry however: how common is it for Americans nowadays to cry these huge big tears for 2,000 people that died on 9/11, but not give two craps about the tens of thousands of Muslims that die from American bombs? Two different standards: American lives are precious, whereas Muslim lives are just scum.
And one more thing: it's actually not 50/50. The Israelis get the majority of the land, whereas the Palestinians would get only the West Bank, Gaza, and East Jerusalem, whereas the Israelis would get all the better land including West Jerusalem.
Last edited by BuffedGuy; 03-26-2009 at 03:26 PM.
I feel accomplished
I didn't say all muslims want the genocide of jews. I said when it comes to Israel the Muslim world as a whole will accept nothing less then total Muslim control, which will end in either conversion/dispersion/or genocide. I say this because that's the ultimate fate of Jews in current Muslim nations. Do you disagree? That's fine, but I don't feel the two state soloution would satisfy the Muslim world. Sure, they would take it cause it's better than what they have now, but won't be happy until they have all of Israel.
I was under the impression we were two adults speaking, chill with the names.
I feel accomplished
You mean they control 100% of thier country without wanting to concede their border inward? You're right I am a bigot.
How do you know how I feel about 9/11 or the Muslims who have died?
There are currently 1 users browsing this thread. (0 members and 1 guests)
Posting Permissions
Reply With Quote