New Member
Ok, let me try this again, and I won't get rude or nasty like the way you have onto me. Ill take it nice and easy.
You say that we need to take HCG so that we can create Pregnenolone, correct? Just answer me this one question please. I'm looking forward to hearing from you. Have a great day, take care.
HRT Specialist ~ AR-Platinum Elite-Hall of Famer ~ No Source Checks
GD will respond. It's his thread. No one was rude or nasty. A little humor is just fine here and makes this a fun place. Happens to all of us here. Stick around, read up. I/we learn every day here. You will like it here
New Member
Sir, so if someone you just met on the street starts a conversation with you, and they say something that either you didn't understand or you did not agree with, do you tell them "you don't know what the hell you're talking about, you have a lot to learn"?Originally Posted by kelkel
Does this seem polite,well mannered and educated to you?
I came here in peace with good intentions "wanting" to be educated and/or corrected. I did not come here to be insulted and/or disrespected. This is just plain rude; nothing funny about this.
HRT Specialist ~ AR-Platinum Elite-Hall of Famer ~ No Source Checks
"I came here in peace with good intentions "wanting" to be educated and/or corrected. I did not come here to be insulted and/or disrespected. This is just plain rude; nothing funny about this."
Well, sorry you feel that way. GD did both "educate" and "correct" you. You, sir, did not listen. He is without question one of the most knowledgeable and educated members here in this forum. And as always, if you do not agree post a relevent medical study to sway our opinion in another direction, we'd love to see it.
And I repeat, it is just a little humor. Relax, stick around, you'll see!
New Member
I never once disagreed with anything or anyone. I truly feel as though everything I said and asked has been misread. That is all. Have a great day.
HRT
Hey Nyde - No one is being mean nor nasty; in fact I started out with: "No disrespect, and you're certainly open to your own opinion..."
hCG keeps a mans testicles alive and healthy as it is an analog to LH. Men who use hCG, if Secondary Hypogonadal of course, will continue to produce some amount of natural Testosterone but usually never in the amounts needed to overcome their hypogonadal state...remember they were Secondary Hypogonadal for a reason...thus TRT.
But there are other metabolic reasons to use hCG in a TRT protocol.
The P450 Side Chain Cleavage Enzyme, which converts Cholesterol into Pregnenolone at the initiation of all three metabolic pathways. So, Cholesterol serves as precursor for all three pathways - the sex hormones, the glucocorticoids and the mineralcorticoids pathways and they are actively stimulated, or depressed, by LH serum level concentrations.
It is intuitive I guess to some extent that during conditions of lowered testosterone levels in a Secondary Hypogonadal male that any commensurate increases in LH production would serve to stimulate this conversion from CHOL into these pathways, thereby increasing hormone production.
And vice versa of course...
Thus the addition of HCG (which also stimulates the P450scc enzyme as noted by Oscar in a post further up) helps restore a more natural balance of the hormones within this pathway in men who are entirely, or partially, HPTA-suppressed.
With HPTA suppression the Axis is not functioning and therefore LH and FSH production is pretty much halted...and for life...that's why many men at some point see Testicular atrophy without the use of hCG. It's also why LH and FSH assays are useless once a man starts a TRT protocol.
When a man introduces exogenous Testosterone in his body he stops producing natural Testosterone due to HPTA suppression. No matter what, the Pituitary will not start up and begin creating LH...it's impossible if a man continues with a TRT protocol. So to keep the mans testes alive and functioning properly the use of hCG is needed and as noted.
With TRT all the other hormones upstream of Testosterone are severely depleted - especially Pregnenolone and DHEA. These hormones are progenitors -- meaning they are the "Mother" for all other hormones and have a say in all the other endocrine pathways not just the Androgen Pathway.
So it's vital to back fill the pathways by supplementing with both Pregnenolone and DHEA in sufficient amounts to make sure we are providing all other pathways with the needed basis which to function optimally...they do so much!
None of this has to with with LH which is the messenger hormone produced by the Pituitary gland which is suppressed when exogenous Testosterone is introduced into a mans body. The only way a man can make up for this short fall in LH production is by introducing an analog to LH which we all know as Human Chorionic Gonadotropin...and no amount of Preg or DHEA can change that...wish it would...hCG is a bit expensive
BTW, I didn't mean to come across disrespectful; so apologies if I did.
Peace out.
Last edited by steroid.com 1; 07-09-2012 at 08:50 PM.
New Member
No one is being mean nor nasty; in fact I started out with: "No disrespect, and you're certainly open to your own opinion..."
hCG keeps a mans testicles alive and healthy as it is an analog to LH. Men who use hCG, if Secondary Hypogonadal of course, will continue to produce some amount of natural Testosterone but usually never in the amounts needed to overcome their hypogonadal state...thus TRT.
So it's easy to deduct that hCG activates the P450 Side Chain Cleavage Enzyme, the same way LH does, which is primarily responsible for converting Cholesterol into Pregnenolone. (Oscar's post above.)
With HPTA suppression the Axis is not functioning and therefore LH and FSH production is pretty much halted...and for life...that's why many men at some point see Testicular atrophy without the use of hCG. It's also why LH and FSH assays are useless once a man starts a TRT protocol.
When a man introduces exogenous Testosterone in his body he stops producing natural Testosterone due to HPTA suppression. No matter what, the Pituitary will not start up and begin creating LH...it's impossible if a man continues with a TRT protocol. So to keep the mans testes alive and functioning properly the use of hCG is needed and as noted.
With TRT all the other hormones upstream of Testosterone are severely depleted - especially Pregnenolone and DHEA. These hormones are progenitors -- meaning they are the "Mother" for all other hormones and have a say in all the other endocrine pathways not just the Androgen Pathway.
So it's vital to back fill the pathways by supplementing with both Pregnenolone and DHEA in sufficient amounts to make sure we are providing all other pathways with the needed basis which to function optimally...they do so much!
None of this has to with with LH which is the messenger hormone produced by the Pituitary gland which is suppressed when exogenous Testosterone is introduced into a mans body. The only way a man can make up for this short fall in LH production is by introducing an analog to LH which we all know as Human Chorionic Gonadotropin...and no amount of Preg or DHEA can change that...wish it would...hCG is a bit expensive
BTW, I didn't mean to come across disrespectful; so apologies if I did.
Peace out.
I understand all of this. What I'm saying is this....
If I'm injecting a weekly dose of testosterone, but my body is missing out on Preg and DHEA (because of low to nonexistent LH and FSH and dormant testicles), why not just take what is missing? Why not just take Preg and DHEA...along with the injectable Testosterone?
What if the size of my testicles are fine? What if they hang just fine? Why the need for HCG? Why not just take preg and DHEA (which the body cannot make because of dormant testicles)?
Hit me back with this and I'll explain why I am asking this. I just didn't want to continue and thus confuse anyone else. Hope to hear from you soon.
HRT
I stated more then once that back filling the pathways is an excellent idea on any TRT protocol as noted and as you wrote...regardless if a man is on a hCG protocol or not.
That said, Preg and DHEA are not an LH analog so they will have no effect on testicular function...you need natural LH for that OR hCG.
In my first post here I stated that men don't need hCG...but they should know the consequences of HPTA suppression on testicular function and the resulting negative side effects...it's essentially a self induced organ shutdown to be honest.
If you're testes are fine now and you don't see or feel any of the negative side effects to HPTA suppression then all the power to you man...but in time it will change...can't change how the body functions.
Add in some Preg and hCG each morning like 50mg of each...it's really good for you in so many ways.
New Member
The resulting "negative" side effects you speak of are a lack of preg and DHEA from ZERO testicular function. Correct?
HRT
To a small point, but...
The Testes are very complex androgenic glands and they need to function for all the reasons we are men (not just to make Preg, DHEA, Testosterone...) as noted in my original post (do some research on your own and you will see).
Preg and DHEA supplementation will not negate the bad side effects of Testicular shut down and atrophy...know that.
It will help support the other pathways as noted above...and that's good.
Last edited by steroid.com 1; 07-09-2012 at 09:55 PM.
New Member
You advised me to do some research. Funny thing is...lol...I've been doing research on this for a while. I'm sorry, I cannot find any other reasons for which to take HCG but other than to increase preg, dhea and testosterone (and testicle size of course). lol
I used to take HCG. Yes, it made my testicles bigger. Downside was that it increased my estrogen too much. I would become very moody! And my gyno would always flare up. It would flare up so much, that I had to get gyno removal surgery as of 2 months ago.
I was always told that taking HCG would increase preg and DHEA. The odd thing about this is that HCG never once (according to bloodwork) increased my preg and DHEA. The last time I was on HCG at 500ius per week, my DHEA levels were ONLY at 60! I now have to take 150mgs of DHEA daily just to bring my DHEA levels to 450 on bloodwork.
Don't know if HCG increased my preg or not because I never had preg tested out. I recently as of 2 weeks ago began to take preg at 25mgs every morning. What I have noticed is that I have become a bit more calmer, but also less of a libido, so don't know whats up with that.
New Member
No reply back?
HRT Specialist ~ Knowledgeable Member
was there a question? and if you have specific questions is best to start your own thread so you can get better responses, these threads are mostly to read and add new information to whats been posted to the original thread.
HRT
^^^^Why I stopped my debate here bass.
New Member
New member here, have been on HRT for two years and have been getting my HCG overseas. It seems that the place I was ordering from is not selling HCG now. Could someone pm me any reliable source. With the new law inplay.
Junior Member
GD great thread learned alot thanks
Associate Member
Quick question about my hCG (brand Novarel). The mfr. site says it's good for 60 days after reconstitution, as does this sticky. This may sound weird, but is this true? I've always heard 30 days until recently.
Also, I'm currently injecting 250iu 2x a week. I've been following this addition to my regimen for the last 4 weeks, after being on TRT for 1.5 years with no hCG. I've noticed only a small difference in ball size, if any. Should I bump it to 3x a week?
HRT
You can if you wish. 250iu 3x a week is fine and will do you well.
AR's Diet Pimp! ~HOF~
Excellent resource for information, both in the OP and subsequent Q&A... thanks so much for your contribution GD!
This, of course, leads to more questions. Does HCG automatically equate to higher E2 levels? As of this moment I am not running an AI with TRT (only started a week ago) but plan to 'demand' it at my next visit (3 weeks), regardless of BW. I'm just concerned with the amount required - i.e. if I were running test alone without HCG, there'd likely still be the need for an AI, but if introducing HCG raises E2 levels even higher, I expect the dosage will differ. I have some more, but will save them for my own thread.
On another note, i'm thinking i'll add Preg & DHEA asap.
HRT
Does HCG automatically equate to higher E2 levels?
It can, but generally seen in higher doses like >500iu daily. There should be no need to dose greater then 350iu daily. This is one peptide where smaller doses more frequently is better. When E2 is elevated it can do so in the testes where an AI is largely ineffective in controlling. If you were diagnosed as Secondary Hypogonadal you will most likely see an increase in natural production...which is a good thing
Back filling the pathways is always a good thing for many reasons. If you don't go with a transdermal cream look for micronized pills; 25mg of each twice daily will do the trick!
AR's Diet Pimp! ~HOF~
Thanks for the fast reply.Does HCG automatically equate to higher E2 levels?
It can, but generally seen in higher doses like >500iu daily. There should be no need to dose greater then 350iu daily. This is one peptide where smaller doses more frequently is better. When E2 is elevated it can do so in the testes where an AI is largely ineffective in controlling. If you were diagnosed as Secondary Hypogonadal you will most likely see an increase in natural production...which is a good thing
Back filling the pathways is always a good thing for many reasons. If you don't go with a transdermal cream look for micronized pills; 25mg of each twice daily will do the trick!
I was prescribed 500iu 2x weekly. Not certain at this point whether I should stick with that or bump the frequency while lowering the dosage to around 350iu EOD-ish.
Re: back filling - I saw your recommendation for lef dot org and am looking into both aforementioned supplements now. As well, I just picked up Vitamin D (2000iu per softgel although I'm uncertain as to reasonable dosage) and am looking into Stinging Nettles; the latter 2 in an effort to lower my SHBG.
Would love it if you visited my thread. Don't mind me, i'm a shameless self promoting whore.
New Member
I was wondering about this! I know I've heard of some people complaining that hCG made them look 'soft' or retain water from the increased E2 levels, but I hadn't thought about the high doses and/or frequency (and looking soft and/or bloated doesn't sound like a very fun way to live if you're going to be taking it long term along with TRT, so I've been hesitant to add it, but if it tends to happen mostly just at higher doses that makes me less hesitant about it).Does HCG automatically equate to higher E2 levels?
It can, but generally seen in higher doses like >500iu daily. There should be no need to dose greater then 350iu daily. This is one peptide where smaller doses more frequently is better. When E2 is elevated it can do so in the testes where an AI is largely ineffective in controlling. If you were diagnosed as Secondary Hypogonadal you will most likely see an increase in natural production...which is a good thing
Back filling the pathways is always a good thing for many reasons. If you don't go with a transdermal cream look for micronized pills; 25mg of each twice daily will do the trick!
This is a great sticky! Very informative.
New Member
Just stumbled on this forum. My estradiol levels actually went down after monotherapy with HCG? Let me give you a little background and the lab results and maybe you can shed a little light on the subject for me. I had been experiencing symptoms of low T last year (low libido, erections not as hard as they used to be, poor sleep, low energy, poor recovery from workouts etc.) so I decided to have some bloodwork done. I am a 51 year old male, 5'-09", 190 lbs. On 12/19/12 the results of my labs were Total Test-552ng-dL, LH-6.1 mIU/mL, FSH-4.1-mIU/mL, Estradiol-23.6 pg/mL. In January I went to see my family doctor and described my symptoms to him. He had me do another lab to test Free T which came back at 10. All other hormones: cortisol, thyroid, etc. were in the mormal range so he didn't think any therapy was indicated. All the research I've done reccomends free T levels be in the 19-25 range, so I disagreed with his evaluation. After doing a little reading I came upon a book by Eugene Shippen who had success treating low T with HCG monotherapy, so I purchased some on the Internet. Shippen reccomended 400 iu daily for 5 consecutive days and 2 days off. After 3 weeks he reccomended blood work to see how the patient was responding. I did some research on the Internet and decided to use 200 i.u. per day, 7 days a week instead. On 2/1/13 my blood work results were Total Test-634, LH-1.1, FSH-1.9 and Estradiol-21.4. My free test went up approx. 15% and my Estradiol level actually went down 2 points? The HCG improved my mood significantly and libido a little, however my energy levels, recovery were not. I picked up some injectable B complex and Super MIC about a month ago and have been using it regularly. My energy has improved and my love handles have almost vanished. I would still like to get better sleep and up my libido though, so I have made an appointment with a different doctor to try adding some injectable Test cyp or enanthate to my therapy. I continue to take the HCG at 200 iu daily while waiting for my doctor's appointment, but am unsure how to adjust my HCG dose if I decide to add the Test. Your forumn has been a source of great info. for me. Any suggestions or advice would be greatly appreciated.
Member
Most doctors are utter shit. If we cant curse sorry! I had one endo trying to give me appetite suppressants. I don't. He had no clue about hcg. eat alot for christ sake.
HRT
Most Practitioners are not educated about Testosterone Replacement Therapies in men. The ones who do get it are those on the cutting edge of Anti Aging Medicine and who have been speciality trained outside the traditional learning processes in the medical field.
That's why most of the Doc's in the TRT space for men have varying backgrounds in Medicine.
It's the Doc's who don't know what they are doing who "try" to undertake TRT protocols in men and really end up putting them in an even worse place are the ones who piss me off.
And oh yea...it's okay to use some profanity around here as long as it's done in a meaningful way if you know what I mean
Member
i got you loud and clear. i respect my doctor because he told me right of the bat all he can do is prescribe something like andro gel. he also stated he doesnt know much about hcg and all the other tidbits of hrt. it is hard to find one.
Anabolic Member
I guess I would prefer that to a doctor that is trying to act like they can treat you and refuse things like HCG and E2 checks.
New Member
They are many types of doctor which type of doctor will meet please tell me.
New Member
Pregnenolone helps to improve brain power without side effect.the hormone production can be stop in any case.hcg prevent from growth hormone problem.
New Member
HCG and pregnelone helps to improve hormone and boost memory.
AR's Diet Pimp! ~HOF~
Is there any way to monitor/measure the effects of HCG? When we start TRT, we know LH will be low, and HCG doesn't actually boost it but rather mimics it. So the question is, are there any other markers that can measure the effects of HCG aside from cosmetically (i.e. testicle size, etc)? I assume a normal/healthy sperm count would be one indication. Anything else?
New Member
gdevine, what are your thoughts on prefilling and freezing HCG syringes in order to preserve potency? There was a discussion on Dr. Crisler's site a couple of months ago about this, where in addition to being convenient, a slight loss of potency seen [by the source mentioned indirectly] in refrigerated HCG was avoided by freezing.
HRT
I preload and freeze my PT 141 and it keeps the potency like new. I guess the same can be done for HCG as well; but I guess my question is why?
If your buying 5000 unit vials and were injecting 750 to 1000 iu a week that would last a month and a half or so. HCG can keep its potency for at least 60 to 90 days...maybe longer.
So I don't think it's necessary to be truthful.
HRT
There are no blood tests to measure the effects of HCG other then Testosterone panels on monotherapies. HCG is an LH analog; in other words while it looks very similar to LH, it's not, but the Testes don't know that and function like they were activated by LH at the Leydig Cell receptor sites.
New Member
Very informative I will be sure to ask HCG once I am able to find a good doctor
Knowledge Member on Prostate Cancer
Thank you ! I'm on it !
Knowledge Member on Prostate Cancer
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Last edited by BuzzardMarinePumper; 11-15-2012 at 12:06 AM.
HRT
I don't knwo why HCG would ever make someone look "soft" and never heard that as a side effect unless of course E2 is elevated and a man retains water which would explain it.
HCG is a very safe peptide that does wonderful things for men when administered correctly.
I love the stuff!
New Member
any thoughts on the preg+dhea patch by ageforce
thanks
Knowledgeable Member
HGH patch? Creatine patch? Pre workout patch? They offer some interesting stuff. The Preg+dhea is probably the only thing I see that could remotely be probably but due to the other magic patches they offer I would steer clear of anything they have to offer.
The HGH patch really cracked me up BTW
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