No More Insurance for TRT

[Metalject]

I'm afraid that factually and substantively, you're absolutely incorrect, as anyone who studies the constitution would point out. But of course, you are entitled to your opinion. I would suggest you look at what I wrote one more time. If you take a closer look, I believe it would help you think out of the box. And look at both documents. You'll be surprised how many times the word "provide" is used.

You are correct in that the word "Provide" is used a handful of times or so. Such as "provide defense" "provide punishment for counterfeiting currency", among others. And people often argue about what this or that means, what was implied, what was intended, etc. I tend to be far more on the literal side. I do not think much was left with the idea that future generations would need to interpret anything at all; that's an idea the modern era has created to help shift various things; all sides of the political spectrum are guilty.

Anyway, I'll admit, I do not delve into this type of stuff as much as I used to. My education, constitutional law. I went to school for the sole purpose of working in that field. Not that it makes me an expert. But I have never practiced any form of law...like many here I got so sucked into bodybuilding that there was nothing left. I now work in healthcare...funny when you think about it. Life's just weird sometimes.

[Metalject]

38,
I really don't see this as arguing at all. I think it would be very unfortunate to interpret every disagreement here as an argument. I love this forum and although we may not all agree on everything, I respect every person who sincerely contributes his thoughts and ideas here for the benefit of the members. I feel it's so important to encourage every exchange of views that we can on varying subjects. And I think the recent discussion/debate accomplished some of that. I know I learned a lot. I hope others learned from me.

Agreed. I don't see disagreements as arguments. If anything, I appreciate when people can talk back and forth with me when we don't agree. If we all agree and pat each other on the back, generally that is a fake and hollow conversation.

[kelkel]

Personally I think it's been an outstanding thread full of diverse, educated opinions by respected members. It opens our eyes to the perspectives of others, which is a good thing and something that helps make this forum both fun and educational.

Now, where's Hoggage with a bikini pic......

[hawk14dl]

Who needs a bikini pic when we have your avi Kel?

[lovbyts]

Twenty years or twenty days in the insurance industry - facts are facts. The ACA is law. All uninsured Americans are required to be covered. Five people to date or five million to date. It doesn't matter. There will be 45 million uninsured Americans on the rolls of insurance companies in due course. Fact. And the profits for corporations will be rolling in - are rolling in now. Here are a few recent representative articles that illustrates the FACT that insurance companies will be rolling in $$$ big time - even covering the dreaded pre-existing conditions of hundreds of thousands of people (who could be people close to you - maybe a relative - who deserve to be covered):

Obamacare could be worth more than $90 billion to the insurance industry

Despite Glitches, Obamacare Profit Windfall To Insurers Well Underway - Forbes

And here is an article about Michael Moore who CRITICIZED the ACA for giving insurance companies TOO MUCH profits! Yes, Michael Moore critical of ACA!

Michael Moore: Obamacare sends over $100 billion annually to insurers | PunditFact

Metalject, Bullshark,
Opinions are fine but you ought to clearly state them as such. As it stands, your comments are based on faulty logic, come from previous biases, and can be misleading. This is not useful to anyone. When this forum has been most useful it has been when it dealt in facts. When conclusions based upon individual experience have been discussed, these too have been extremely useful - and often life saving. When there has been conjecture, it has been a waste of time. Of course, this is all my opinion.

Now if you want to continue with your line of reasoning (which is incredibly insensitive) and which I might add has no factual basis as the above articles make eminently clear, maybe we should go back to the insurance system we had just replaced. No insurance for pre-existing conditions so that you could pay a little less for your TRT treatment. What's the difference? Just let a few people die for our comfort. Something to be really proud of. It's disgraceful that a thought like this could even enter a person's mind. Disgusting, actually. Oh. My opinion.

And they have spent more on advertising and Obamacare setup to pay for insurance for every person who was not insured for at least 10 years not counting future spending. Typical government mentality, spend 10x more than you will make.

So, if they (government) decided you had to turn over your 1st born to them so they can use them for xyz you would just be OK with that also or compliant? Just because they have made it law does not mean it's right and that we the people should just accept it.

It's turning into everything the conspiracy theorist said it would 5 years ago. The main purpose is to fail so the government will force everyone to go to a single payer plan. Just wait and see. More and more news and talk shows are starting to report this probability. You may so no it wont but I bet 5 years ago you said it would not be the mess it is now but you are still in denial.

[Beethoven]

And they have spent more on advertising and Obamacare setup to pay for insurance for every person who was not insured for at least 10 years not counting future spending. Typical government mentality, spend 10x more than you will make.

So, if they (government) decided you had to turn over your 1st born to them so they can use them for xyz you would just be OK with that also or compliant? Just because they have made it law does not mean it's right and that we the people should just accept it.

It's turning into everything the conspiracy theorist said it would 5 years ago. The main purpose is to fail so the government will force everyone to go to a single payer plan. Just wait and see. More and more news and talk shows are starting to report this probability. You may so no it wont but I bet 5 years ago you said it would not be the mess it is now but you are still in denial.

That is the end game, single payer. The government wants to take over 1/6 of the nations economy for what, because they care for us so much? No. They see insurance and their profits and see a whole lot of money for them, cutting out the middle man of course. (Insurance). Only after they have screwed it up and the people are really outraged, then riding in on their white horse will be government to take it over. And in comes a pale horse............

[kelkel]

That is the end game, single payer. The government wants to take over 1/6 of the nations economy for what, because they care for us so much? No. They see insurance and their profits and see a whole lot of money for them, cutting out the middle man of course. (Insurance). Only after they have screwed it up and the people are really outraged, then riding in on their white horse will be government to take it over. And in comes a pale horse............

This horse?

Pale Rider And Hell followed with him YouTube - YouTube

[Beethoven]

This horse?

Pale Rider And Hell followed with him YouTube - YouTube

Ah great pick up.........

[kelkel]

Ah great pick up.........

Great movie.

[bullshark99]

Well thats refreashing!! I see some members get it... A single payer system LOL, just what this nation needs, bigger government and more interference! Wouldnt the joke or irony be on everyone who wants this when the day comes and the government chooses who receives treatment based on there silly little tables. Oh, sorry your 52, thats too old to receive a kidney transplant, needs to go to the 25yr old. Doesnt matter that you were a well respected person in the community who paid there taxes for decades, kidney is going to the unemployed drug user with 2 felonies because he's younger.
A bit of an exggeration, but might not be so far fetched when you take a good look at some of the existing government run programs. Alot of talk above on how corporate profits are so "evil" the root of all the countries problems. Last i looked our Jails are full of politicians, I reside in the great state of illinois, cant remember the last time we had a governor that didnt end up in jail. Politicians clearly have their own agenda's in many cases, cant imagine putting our healthcare in their hands?

[Beethoven]

Well thats refreashing!! I see some members get it... A single payer system LOL, just what this nation needs, bigger government and more interference! Wouldnt the joke or irony be on everyone who wants this when the day comes and the government chooses who receives treatment based on there silly little tables. Oh, sorry your 52, thats too old to receive a kidney transplant, needs to go to the 25yr old. Doesnt matter that you were a well respected person in the community who paid there taxes for decades, kidney is going to the unemployed drug user with 2 felonies because he's younger.
A bit of an exggeration, but might not be so far fetched when you take a good look at some of the existing government run programs. Alot of talk above on how corporate profits are so "evil" the root of all the countries problems. Last i looked our Jails are full of politicians, I reside in the great state of illinois, cant remember the last time we had a governor that didnt end up in jail. Politicians clearly have their own agenda's in many cases, cant imagine putting our healthcare in their hands?

Yes, I still remember Blago. Lol. But you are right, rationing will become part of the decision making process. If you're old, retired and don't produce, meaning work and pay taxes, you will be put behind a younger citizen who is. And if you're terminal, forget everything else and take a pill. A government big enough to give what you want is big enough to take it all from you.

[Beethoven]

Anyone pushing for single payer should read this.
The Checkup - Canadian official has heart surgery -- in the U.S.

[Ryanmcd]

....

[dreadnok89]

I'm not covered pre obamacare, and I pay a shitload, and besides you already pay.

[2Sox]

Anyone pushing for single payer should read this.
The Checkup - Canadian official has heart surgery -- in the U.S.

Danny Williams is a billionaire on par with Michael Bloomberg who donates his salary to charity.
Danny Williams, Canadian Official, Seeks Heart Surgery In US

I spoke in a previous post that we have to take care not to be lazy and uninquisitive but look past the slogans and talking points, and not only listen to what we want to hear because it agrees with our previous biases. Let's fight that tendency. Here from a Canadian paper. You can certainly find differing opinions everywhere. But one has to look in order to find what's true.

Williams's heart surgery choice was based on ignorance - The Globe and Mail

And by the way, we have a very successful single payer system in the U.S., administered by the government and from my knowledge it works great. I have many friends who are Vets and doctors who I have known who worked there, and they all love it - the V.A.

[dhickey]

And by the way, we have a very successful single payer system in the U.S., administered by the government and from my knowledge it works great. I have many friends who are Vets and doctors who I have known who worked there, and they all love it - the V.A.

At what cost? Everything our gov't is involved in automatically includes massive inefficiency, waste, fraud and corruption. Everything. That's why they should be limited to only services that are absolutely essential for them to provide. The reason our health care system is so ungodly expensive is because of gov't regulation and intervention. Now we what them even more involved? Lunacy.

[bullshark99]

^^^^^another great post! The government should with out a doubt be in charge of defense and monetary policy/currency. Other than that, most every other service should be farmed out to the private sector. Oh how interesting it would be if the private sector and free enterprise were able to compete for the rest of the services???

[Metalject]

Danny Williams is a billionaire on par with Michael Bloomberg who donates his salary to charity.
Danny Williams, Canadian Official, Seeks Heart Surgery In US

I spoke in a previous post that we have to take care not to be lazy and uninquisitive but look past the slogans and talking points, and not only listen to what we want to hear because it agrees with our previous biases. Let's fight that tendency. Here from a Canadian paper. You can certainly find differing opinions everywhere. But one has to look in order to find what's true.

Williams's heart surgery choice was based on ignorance - The Globe and Mail

And by the way, we have a very successful single payer system in the U.S., administered by the government and from my knowledge it works great. I have many friends who are Vets and doctors who I have known who worked there, and they all love it - the V.A.

I have yet to hear of anyone call the V.A. a quality place. Not anyone I know anyway.

[2Sox]

At what cost? Everything our gov't is involved in automatically includes massive inefficiency, waste, fraud and corruption. Everything. Unsubstantiated generalization.

That's why they should be limited to only services that are absolutely essential for them to provide. Opinion. State it as such

The reason our health care system is so ungodly expensive is because of gov't regulation and intervention. Another unsubstantiated generalization with an opinion thrown in. Now we what them even more involved? Lunacy. Opinion.

This is very frustrating. How can an intelligent exchange take place with comments such as these? In my opinion, substantiating you claims would be the sensible thing to do, not to mention common courtesy. No one can debate opinions - only facts. And substantiated facts usually make clear who is in the right in no time at all.

[2Sox]

I have yet to hear of anyone call the V.A. a quality place. Not anyone I know anyway.

Wait awhile. You might be surprised.

[Metalject]

At what cost? Everything our gov't is involved in automatically includes massive inefficiency, waste, fraud and corruption. Everything. Unsubstantiated generalization.

There are things government does well, but 17trillion in debt strongly lends to the idea of massive waste. As far as fraud and corruption, I don't care who's in power, I don't see how anyone could argue that the government isn't anything but fraud and corruption. That's not to say there are no good people in government, but, and yes this is my opinion, the American system of government is a disastrous mess and nowhere close does it resemble what it was intended to be. The mere fact that we're discussing this on a federal level and that states aren't allowed to decide this for themselves is proof of that.


That's why they should be limited to only services that are absolutely essential for them to provide. Opinion. State it as such

It's hard to argue against, the constitution largely prohibits government more than it allows them and sets in place very few and limited things it can do...speaking of the federal government only. And in recent times, Obama has recognized this, called the constitution a document of negative liberties and one that should be corrected with affirmative rights. But that would do away with what we have and create something new...which in many ways has already been done as the constitution is not often followed anymore. But the basis of the constitution is of the basis of nature's God. It doesn't not matter if you believe in God or not, that is the basis...even Thomas Paine, an ardent atheist understood this and was one of the very reasons he wrote common sense. And yes, many things in the constitution, following it to the letter, we can argue that if that's the right path it is a matter of opinion, but those that believe so simply believe it is common sense.


The reason our health care system is so ungodly expensive is because of gov't regulation and intervention. Another unsubstantiated generalization with an opinion thrown in. Now we what them even more involved? Lunacy. Opinion Government is partially (if not largely) to blame. The court system that allows ambulance chasing lawyers, that's driven the cost up. Regulation that has made it impossible to buy insurance across state lines has driven the cost up. And a massive one, an FDA that allows the board members of the big pharma companies to hold the top spots at the FDA, they basically play a game of never ending musical chairs, that is perhaps the biggest problem of all and that is 100% government.

In Red

[Beethoven]

I have yet to hear of anyone call the V.A. a quality place. Not anyone I know anyway.

That's because it is not largely reported in the media. There was a massive case of vets and other VA members contaminated with Heatitus b from a colonoscopy where the instruments were not properly sterilized.
VA Contaminated Colonoscopies: 'Completely Inexcusable'

In regard to Danny Williams, the article can say what they want but, when the chips are down and it was HIS heart, we saw where his money went. All the rest is buffalo chips. Everyone can talk a big game but none where in HIS predicament. "Edited not really pertinent to the discussion"

[Beethoven]

And btw, what that article blames Williams for kind of sounds like our government officials exempting themselves from their very own law. You think they know something we don't? If they have to live by the same laws they pass, many of those wouldn't pass.

[Beethoven]

Williams's heart surgery choice was based on ignorance - The Globe and Mail

This article has some very interesting points. The writer admits in one paragraph the system has problems, then later says it's on par with the U.S. He further speculates the better procedure might have been then more invasive procedure. But I think the loudest point from this article is what they didn't get. Canada's system for healthcare is NOT on par with the U.S. They are quite upset with that fact. It's always strange how those types of people want to make decisions on YOUR healthcare and your money. You and I would not have had that choice.

[2Sox]

^^^^^another great post! The government should with out a doubt be in charge of defense and monetary policy/currency. Other than that, most every other service should be farmed out to the private sector. Oh how interesting it would be if the private sector and free enterprise were able to compete for the rest of the services???

Hmmm. Interesting idea. Let's privatize the Police and Fire Departments and see how that works out. How about putting the National Highway System up for grabs too? No more State Troopers. Make it all private. Let's sell 911 to the highest bidders in each town. Which private ambulance unit will get the calls? Sell all the school systems too, while we're at it. Might want to re-think this one.

[2Sox]

[/B]
In Red

[/B]
In Red

First: Please, enough with the red bold print. How about blue? It's a nice, relaxing color. (My favorite, actually)

Second, I'm going to agree with your statement about the FDA. The revolving door policy has been documented, is common knowledge and has to stop. There is no doubt about this.

Now about your remark citing Obama as stating that "the constitution is a document of negative liberties." I don't want to think that you were being intentionally disingenuous - because if you research this statement, it's easy to find what the President did say and the context in which he said it. He was in an interview in 2001, while he was a senator, talking about the Warren court - not his views. I would suggest you stop believing everything you hear or read on the right wing blogs and do your homework. The facts are out there. I would be happy to provide you with this one link:

Obama’s “Redistribution of Wealth” Quote In Context | The Moderate Voice

I'm tired so you find some others yourself.

Now about Thomas Paine and his important "Common Sense". I'm in the process of reading it now and I'll get back to you on it, but before I do, is there anything you like to change about what you wrote concerning this work?

Oh, one more thing. As someone who studied law and the Constitution you ought to know - as every kid in grade school learns very early - there is absolutely no mention of God in the constitution and one of the basic tenets on which this county was founded has been the separation of church and state.

[lovbyts]

Well thats refreashing!! I see some members get it... A single payer system LOL, just what this nation needs, bigger government and more interference! Wouldnt the joke or irony be on everyone who wants this when the day comes and the government chooses who receives treatment based on there silly little tables. Oh, sorry your 52, thats too old to receive a kidney transplant, needs to go to the 25yr old. Doesnt matter that you were a well respected person in the community who paid there taxes for decades, kidney is going to the unemployed drug user with 2 felonies because he's younger.
A bit of an exggeration, but might not be so far fetched when you take a good look at some of the existing government run programs. Alot of talk above on how corporate profits are so "evil" the root of all the countries problems. Last i looked our Jails are full of politicians, I reside in the great state of illinois, cant remember the last time we had a governor that didnt end up in jail. Politicians clearly have their own agenda's in many cases, cant imagine putting our healthcare in their hands?

What exaggeration? They have already said exactly that. Emergency medical care will be given to who needs it most due to who will be more productive in the future. If you are near end of your days then it's best to just give you pain meds and let you fade away even if you can be saved/cured.

[Metalject]

First: Please, enough with the red bold print. How about blue? It's a nice, relaxing color. (My favorite, actually)

The Red bold print, I don't know why I always pick red...subconscious favorite color maybe? I don't know. Nothing more than that to add there.

Second, I'm going to agree with your statement about the FDA. The revolving door policy has been documented, is common knowledge and has to stop. There is no doubt about this.

Glad we could agree. Most of the time when I've brought this up people just sort of stare blankly.

Now about your remark citing Obama as stating that "the constitution is a document of negative liberties." I don't want to think that you were being intentionally disingenuous - because if you research this statement, it's easy to find what the President did say and the context in which he said it. He was in an interview in 2001, while he was a senator, talking about the Warren court. I would suggest you stop believing everything you hear or read on the right wing blogs and do your homework. The facts are out there. I would be happy to provide you with this one link:

Obama’s “Redistribution of Wealth” Quote In Context | The Moderate Voice


I'm tired so you find some others yourself.

The comment on negative liberties and the Obama interview that came from, the comment about his belief in affirmative rights was the main point, in that government has the responsibility to right the wrongs of society rather than society righting the wrongs and government protecting the ability for it to do so. Yes, we can argue that if left to its own that society would trample this...the strong would destroy the weak. I recognize that, but that cannot happen if we remember what we talked about before...those in society (individuals) cannot do anything that tramples the life and liberty of another. That's governments role, but I believe president Obama sees it as more than that. Can I prove that as absolute fact? No, no one can either way; you would have to unequivocally know his heart and mind. I can only base my opinion on how I perceive what's in front of me.

Now about Thomas Paine and his important "Common Sense". I'm in the process of reading it now and I'll get back to you on it, but before I do, is there anything you like to change about what you wrote concerning this work?

I'm not sure what you're after here. Are you asking if I feel I may have misspoke or if I'd like to add more?

Oh, one more thing. As someone who studied law and the Constitution you ought to know - as every kid in grade school learns very early - there is absolutely no mention of God in the constitution and one of the basic tenets on which this county was founded has been the separation of church and state.

The separation of church and state, you are correct, that is a basic tenet. Which I believe was put in place so that there would be no state religion nor prohibition of one in private. But the idea of separating it completely is an impossible idea. I've said this before in another thread...a man's religious beliefs or lack thereof define how he sees the world, they make up a large part of who he is and his decisions will largely be influenced by that. It is impossible to separate that part of a man from himself, religious or not.

In any case, if we read the letters, diaries and countless books written by those who wrote the constitution, this topic is discussed at great length. The constitution itself is more or less a bullet point instruction of the role of government free from any emotional basis, while the declaration of independence is the opposite. Further, the founders believed it was for each man to determine his faith, that does not require constitutional persuasion nor should it prohibit it in any way.

Lastly, I have always found it confusing that so many in education have tried to paint the founders as atheist or deist at best. The idea that they were anything else seems to bother a lot of people and I don't understand why. Read Washington's diary sometime or if you're really feeling fancy, read Jefferson's. I think you'll find that the educators in America are either idiots or sheep. I'm not saying that radical fire and brimstone preachers are right but the opposite most certainly is dead wrong.

[Metalject]

Hmmm. Interesting idea. Let's privatize the Police and Fire Departments and see how that works out. How about putting the National Highway System up for grabs too? No more State Troopers. Make it all private. Let's sell 911 to the highest bidders in each town. Which private ambulance unit will get the calls? Sell all the school systems too, while we're at it. Might want to re-think this one.

If the private sector had control of these areas, the companies that did the best job would get the job. That's how it's always worked...business that do poorly and provide poor service go out of business. But when there's no competition, you're stuck with what you got. And in my opinion, the examples you used, they're not doing a stellar job to begin with.

[Beethoven]

If the private sector had control of these areas, the companies that did the best job would get the job. That's how it's always worked...business that do poorly and provide poor service go out of business. But when there's no competition, you're stuck with what you got. And in my opinion, the examples you used, they're not doing a stellar job to begin with.

Metalject funny you should say that but that is exactly the problem with government, no competition. This administration spent what about 900 mil on this Obamacare and website? They had about four years to implement and it is still a fiasco? What private sector business would survive that way? Government is always preaching that we should live within our means. The government never lives within its means.

[lovbyts]

If the private sector had control of these areas, the companies that did the best job would get the job. That's how it's always worked...business that do poorly and provide poor service go out of business. But when there's no competition, you're stuck with what you got. And in my opinion, the examples you used, they're not doing a stellar job to begin with.

Yeah maybe we could get back to when cops served the public instead of being debt collectors and strong arm militia. At one time when the work police was mentioned there was a sense of pride. Now when police is mentioned there is fear and un-trust felt.

Most of the fire department us to be voluntary but they have lost near 1/2 of their man power due to regulation and cutting out anyone wanting to volunteer.

[Metalject]

Yeah maybe we could get back to when cops served the public instead of being debt collectors and strong arm militia. At one time when the work police was mentioned there was a sense of pride. Now when police is mentioned there is fear and un-trust felt.

Most of the fire department us to be voluntary but they have lost near 1/2 of their man power due to regulation and cutting out anyone wanting to volunteer.

I've often been amazed at how the idea of police officers has morphed into what it is. It is the standing army the founders vehemently opposed. There was warning after warning against giving up your freedom to protect and defend yourself as well as your right to liberty and entrusting it to the government, but that's exactly what we've done. But it's not the police themselves that's to blame, we've allowed it, we've welcomed it. We still call police public servants but by what definition is a servant above the people they serve? And that applies to all forms of so-called public service, not just the police. The police has grown beyond the individual, the individual is now the servant but the police is merely an arm of the larger ruler, the government, which should always be a rung below the people. We have flipped it around and destroyed the idea that was intended.

[lovbyts]

I've often been amazed at how the idea of police officers has morphed into what it is. It is the standing army the founders vehemently opposed. There was warning after warning against giving up your freedom to protect and defend yourself as well as your right to liberty and entrusting it to the government, but that's exactly what we've done. But it's not the police themselves that's to blame, we've allowed it, we've welcomed it. We still call police public servants but by what definition is a servant above the people they serve? And that applies to all forms of so-called public service, not just the police. The police has grown beyond the individual, the individual is now the servant but the police is merely an arm of the larger ruler, the government, which should always be a rung below the people. We have flipped it around and destroyed the idea that was intended.

And we will probably follow the same track ever nation and empire in history who has done this because we seem incapable of learning from our or others past. We will fall if we dont change things around. Only problem is I fear we have gone past the point of turning it around without the intevention of a natural global disaster. I say natural because I dont think the public is strong enough to stand up for what is right and wrong anymore. They have been manipulated and softened over time to where we to comfortable to make a stand afraid of loosing what they have and will just continue to loose it little by little.

[Score]

Humana announces today they will no longer cover TRT, this includes doctors visits, labs, medications, etc. Blue Cross Blue Shield soon to follow. It's only a matter of time before all follow suit. TRT is not considered a medical necessity, it is elective. While only elective for those that qualify, it's still considered elective.

Yesterday my doc mailed in my completed appeals form, was length and likely designed as a deterrent. I will let you know how that goes.

The scary part is that my doctor didn't want to write me the script as he knew insurance wouldn't likely cover it, to which I convinced him I didn't care I would pay out of pocket.

The positive of that to me was it lead him to injections versus gel since it was cheaper. Seems a lot of docs prefer gel cause it's less invasive .

[2Sox]

The Red bold print, I don't know why I always pick red...subconscious favorite color maybe? I don't know. Nothing more than that to add there.


Glad we could agree. Most of the time when I've brought this up people just sort of stare blankly.



The comment on negative liberties and the Obama interview that came from, the comment about his belief in affirmative rights was the main point, in that government has the responsibility to right the wrongs of society rather than society righting the wrongs and government protecting the ability for it to do so. Yes, we can argue that if left to its own that society would trample this...the strong would destroy the weak. I recognize that, but that cannot happen if we remember what we talked about before...those in society (individuals) cannot do anything that tramples the life and liberty of another. That's governments role, but I believe president Obama sees it as more than that. Can I prove that as absolute fact? No, no one can either way; you would have to unequivocally know his heart and mind. I can only base my opinion on how I perceive what's in front of me.



I'm not sure what you're after here. Are you asking if I feel I may have misspoke or if I'd like to add more?



The separation of church and state, you are correct, that is a basic tenet. Which I believe was put in place so that there would be no state religion nor prohibition of one in private. But the idea of separating it completely is an impossible idea. I've said this before in another thread...a man's religious beliefs or lack thereof define how he sees the world, they make up a large part of who he is and his decisions will largely be influenced by that. It is impossible to separate that part of a man from himself, religious or not.

In any case, if we read the letters, diaries and countless books written by those who wrote the constitution, this topic is discussed at great length. The constitution itself is more or less a bullet point instruction of the role of government free from any emotional basis, while the declaration of independence is the opposite. Further, the founders believed it was for each man to determine his faith, that does not require constitutional persuasion nor should it prohibit it in any way.

Lastly, I have always found it confusing that so many in education have tried to paint the founders as atheist or deist at best. The idea that they were anything else seems to bother a lot of people and I don't understand why. Read Washington's diary sometime or if you're really feeling fancy, read Jefferson's. I think you'll find that the educators in America are either idiots or sheep. I'm not saying that radical fire and brimstone preachers are right but the opposite most certainly is dead wrong.

I respect how you write here. I believe you've made some very good points. There are some points that I take exception to but these are fine details, and rather than commenting, I'll just leave it at that.

One small point I'll disagree with. I'm a retired educator - spent 30 years in the classroom - and I was privileged to meet some of the finest, most brilliant people I have ever known. The few bad ones I've met along the way didn't last long.

[2Sox]

Posted by Metalject: I'm not sure what you're after here. Are you asking if I feel I may have misspoke or if I'd like to add more?

You might have misspoken but I think that it was more that I was unclear on exactly what you were saying about Thomas Paine and God in referencing "Common Sense". I believe you may have confused "Common Sense" with his "Age of Reason" - in which he essentially expresses that organized religion is an abomination - even while being a Deist himself - and says it has absolutely not place in government. Of course, this is how I understand it from what I have read - but it seems pretty clear to me.

I'm very grateful for this discussion because it has given me the opportunity to research and learn new things. Gets the blood moving.

[bullshark99]

2sox, 30 years or 30 days???? LOL, sorry you had that one coming to you. Even though we may disagree significantly on philosophy, I must admit if a person takes the blinders off and with an open mind tries to see another's point of view without existing biases, only good can come out of it. This thread obviously evolved, took a life of its own, will be interesting what the future holds regarding TRT coverage. Think it is pretty clear I am not a fan of the new ACA, would be very nice if I were wrong, time will tell.

[2Sox]

2sox, 30 years or 30 days???? LOL, sorry you had that one coming to you. Even though we may disagree significantly on philosophy, I must admit if a person takes the blinders off and with an open mind tries to see another's point of view without existing biases, only good can come out of it. This thread obviously evolved, took a life of its own, will be interesting what the future holds regarding TRT coverage. Think it is pretty clear I am not a fan of the new ACA, would be very nice if I were wrong, time will tell.

LOL. Yep, I guess I did. It's funny. While I was writing that "30" I thought to myself that I was leaving myself wide open to someone's comeback.

I respect what you said above. This is not to flatter at all, but IMO it takes a real man to say that he's willing to listen to other viewpoints and possibly change his mind if he sees he's wrong. It's funny. I just got an email from Whitehouse.gov that contained a letter from a staunch Republican who completely changed his mind about the ACA. I think it might be useful to copy and paste it here. Some may see it as White House propaganda - and it's good to have a healthy skepticism - but I'd imagine it can be corroborated if someone took the effort to do so. Here it is:

Good afternoon,

I am a staunch Republican, a self-proclaimed Fox News addict, and I didn't vote for the President. And I'm here to tell you that Obamacare works. I'm living proof.

I'm a chemotherapy patient, and was previously paying $428 a month for my health coverage. I was not thrilled when it was cancelled.

Then I submitted an application at HealthCare.gov. I looked at my options. And I signed up for a plan for $62 a month.

It's the best health care I have ever had.

So right now, here's what I want to tell anyone who still needs health insurance, or knows someone who does:

Sign up. Follow the instructions on the website. Apply, and look at your options. You still have time, and take it from me: This is something you want to do.

I wrote a letter to President Obama this past February to tell him about my experience with the Health Insurance Marketplace. I hoped he'd read it, and he did.

I may not be a supporter of the President. But now, I get mad when I see Obamacare dragged through the mud on television.

And even though I regularly tune in to conservative pundits, I'd like to tell them they're getting it wrong. Obamacare works.

So one more time: If you still need health insurance, you have just three days to get it. Do what I did. Go to HealthCare.gov, submit an application, and pick a plan that works for you.

It just might change your life.

Mark D. Bearden, Ph.D.
Monroe, North Carolina

[GFA]

Never thought I would see a healthy debate on steroid.com related to political issues

I can't even read the comments on CNN or Fox.

Carry on.

[bullshark99]

While I'm certainly not suggesting "someone" made that letter up I would challenge anyone here to show me a bonifide health insurance plan that cost just 62 bucks a month??? Frankly, in my opinion, ( as you like to see) 2sox, health insurance for a young single male (non smoker) hasn't cost 62 dollars in more than 20 years.
Medicare supp policies are more than double that, my family dental is close to double. I find this very unlikely, I think people would be doing cartwheels if that was accurate. My family coverage is about 1800 per month, please do not suggest 90 % of that is "corporate profit".