How long is "long periods"?Originally Posted by NaturalJohnny
As for the answer to your cabergoline question, everything is explained in my main post...
Banned
How long is "long periods"?
As for the answer to your cabergoline question, everything is explained in my main post...
Banned
How long is "long periods"?
As for the answer to your cabergoline question, everything is explained in my main post...
Banned
Jesus Christ... forum is making me spaz out again...
Senior Member
call u jacob two two
Associate Member
Wow, reading all of your posts, Atomini, confuses me, lol. Not because of the validity of the information - because ultimately I don't know what is right and what is wrong, but because most of what I have been learning from this board is conflicting with what you say. But you seem very educated and this is where the confusion comes from. lol.
You say:
"My personal opinion is that I see far too many people excessively relying on HCG in the first place. It is very easy to destroy your body's endogenous LH secretion with it, and is one of the reasons why strongly advise against its constant use while on-cycle. IF it were to be used at all, I advise only during the first week or so of PCT to give the testes a jumpstart - that's IT."
Swifto says:
"HCG is VERY important in cycles IMHO. It prevents the main reason the HPTA doesnt recover immediately post cycle - testicular dysfunction. It should be a staple of EVERY cycle causing shutdown IMHO. I suggest HCG be used at 125-250ius 2-3 times weekly (as per Dr.Crisler's advice) with an AI throughout the cycle lasting 6-12 weeks. This will maintain testicular size and function and prevent testicular dysfunction. It should also be noted that administering over "500ius will cause an increase in estrogen and progesterone, further hindering recovery" - Dr.Crisler."
As far as PCT, you say (not quoting) that Clomid is not necessary and can be damaging, and studies have shown that Nolva is much more effective dose for dose, yet others on here ("knowledgable memebers") swear on the use of Clomid and Nolva together for PCT
Now I am like...WTF should I do with HCG and PCT with the current cycle that I am on? lol...
Associate Member
Oh, and one more thing, Atomini. Maybe you can add a "example cycle for beginners" in your OP in the FAQ section. I know you touched up on it throughout your text, but someone will have to read through the whole thing to find it versus being able to find it by skimming through it [(don't worry, I read it all..=))]
I know you said you would recomemnd 100mg test prop and 250mg tren per week, and a prolactin antagonist along with it, but for how long of each the test and tren? When to start PCT on such cycle? Your PCT recommendation? (which I already know you said Nolva at 40/40/20/20 I beleive)? Just a sample cycle would be nice in the FAQ. TIA
Last edited by Trying-Hard; 08-15-2012 at 12:39 PM.
Banned
Of course you are going to hear conflicting information everywhere - this forum has been around for more than 10 years! As such, it will have accumulated every single cycle theory and protocol from here to Timbuktu, and dating all the way back to protocols and theories from the 1970s onwards!
There are a lot of cycling and PCT protocols and such that are just plain outdated, since many clinical studies have been performed in order to see what works best in many given areas. Other newer and more efficient compounds have arrived on the scene over the last two decades as well. Aromatase inhibitors were nonexistant prior to the mid 1990s, nolvadex and clomid were poorly understood ESPECIALLY in the bodybuilding and AAS-using scene. The concept of Post Cycle Therapy did not exist AT ALL until the mid-late 1990s! Nobody did 'PCT' in the 90s, or 80s, or prior! Nobody even knew what the hell that was, it didn't exist.
A lot of people wonder "why isn't there an exact science to all of this?" Well, I am here telling people THERE IS! The problem is that in the AAS-using world, there is a lot of misinformation, 'bro-talk', 'bro-science', parroting and garbage advice and information that is circulated.
Prior to the 90s, nobody knew much about AAS at all. Most of the practices people did were experimental things, and most protocols (if there even were any) were developed by meatheads in gyms - NOT by doctors, scientists or ANYONE in the medical community. Ever since the original ban (and criminalization in the USA) in 1990, it has driven the practice further underground. As a result, doctors, scientists, and the medical community as a whole have been extremely reluctant to engage in research surrounding AAS use for the purposes of performance/physique enhancement. Now, with that being said, a ton of medical studies have been done and most of them have only happened within the last two decades. More are being conducted, and i'm very happy to see that no longer is this area of medicine and science being plainly ignored. I'm glad that medical application is stepping in here and that more people are looking towards science and medicine for proper science-based instructional use on AAS, rather than how it was before where the only people/place that instructional use on AAS was coming from was from meatheads in gym environments - people completely unqualified to develop protocols and advice for use of such things.
However, to this day the medical community for the most part refuses to ackgnowledge AAS use for the purpose of performance and physique enhancement as a legitemate use. And it is for this reason that doctors and the medical community in general must refuse to provide proper medical supervision of cycles, and this is mainly because of the legality and stigma surrounding the whole thing. It is extremely rare that you'll find a doctor who will provide proper supervision during your cycles. I know of ONE doctor who is okay with it, and by acting as such I believe he is potentially placing his license to practice medicine at risk. Anyhow, nearly all other doctors are not willing to do the same thing. As a result, it has been for the most part left up to the AAS-using community to come up with proper theories and protocols on AAS use, and this is largely done by people without medical background. However, as I mentioned... thankfully since the 1990s, clinical studies and information from them have played a large role in providing logical assistance to AAS-related usage protocols, but we still don't have that 100% support from the scientific/medical community to ackgnowledge AAS use for performance enhancement as a legitemate use.
My goal here is to stop the spread of non-science based misinformation and 'bro-talk' that so horribly plagues this little world of AAS use for performance enhancement. I'm here to engage in intelligent scientific and medical study in this particular arena of endocrinology. I enjoy sharing my knowledge here in the effort to help people out and assist them in their hormone augmentation as safely as possible, and in turn gain knowledge from the dynamic of seeing how others respond to my advice and their cycles, etc.
Does this mean Swifto doesn't know what he is talking about? No... he is a very knowledgeable member, he knows very well what he is talking about and has more cycle experience than me. However, what is the context by which he is giving this advice on HCG? I think it is aimed more so towards people who conduct very long cycles (14 or more weeks). You also must factor in the dose of a given cycle, as heavier dosed cycles will obviously impact the body's HPTA far more. And if you are running heavy dosed long cycles... well, you can put 2 and 2 together and figure it out yourself! You also must understad that everybody responds differently to every compound, every dose, and every cycle length. There is no one-set one-size-fits-all protocol for EVERYONE. Some people will need to modify slightly. I still maintain what I said about the use of HCG - if you cycle moderately, use moderate doses, and keep your cycles as short as possible, then you should be able to minimize the need for HCG. As far as it goes with clomid, I believe it to be worthless - period. I have mentioned it before and I will mention it again: nearly all of the protocols out there that include clomid in them are outdated old protocols, and the reason people go around regurgitating these protocols to others is simply because someone told them, and so therefore they are telling others now to do it. It's called parroting. These outdated protocols still tend to echo through the community, and the truth is that people need to use logic and rational thinking to put a stop to it. They need to look at the actual hard evidence and data for themselves - the clinical studies - and see for themselves that nolvadex is far superior than clomid, and that clomid is essentially for the most part during this day and age, a bygone of the 1980s.
The biggest problem I find people run into is that when they are new to this world of AAS, they do a lot of research (which is of course a good thing). But the problem is that they read everything with extreme contexts and start to freak out. People will read about how most AAS convert into estrogen and DHT on cycle, and how it will suppress the body's endogenous hormone production, etc. So then they freak out and think they need to buy copious amounts of aromatase inhibitors, SERMs, 5-AR blockers, shoot HCG into themselves every day on cycle, and literally try to combat EVERY SINGLE THING that they read about. I have to tell these people "whoa, calm down and just take a step back for a second and look at the big picture". You need to realize this is why we start first cycles with testosterone-only, and start things slow so you can gauge how you react to it. Not everyone will get gyno, not everyone will get acne, etc. etc. and so you must learn what YOU need to do. If you just go off and buy every single blocker of everything, and run it on your first cycle... how will you ever know if you are even sensitive at all to these side effects you're attempting to block? The answer is you don't know! You could be wasting your money buying all these ancilliaries and running them at full blast doses to block side effects you aren't even prone to! This is where we use logic and reason when we plan cycles and do research, etc.
I would put up a tren cycle for beginners, but the problem is I reached my max capacity for that first post. I will see if I can add it, or perhaps get the admin to allow more characters to be typed into the post. My only problem with creating an 'example tren cycle for beginners' is that I feel it is too much like spoonfeeding people. I want to leave my tren thread as informative as possible, but just ambiguous enough so as not to have a bunch of newbie retards coming on here thinking that they can run tren for their first cycle because there's a model cycle laid out for them. The idea with keeping the post somewhat ambiguous is because it is understood that trenbolone is for the experienced user - and if you're experienced enough to begin considering trenbolone, then you're experienced enough and knowledgeable enough to be able to know how to construct your own cycles without having to follow some cookie-cutter cycle layout made up by me. And i've mentioned this in the main post.
Last edited by Atomini; 08-15-2012 at 03:59 PM. Reason: Typo
Associate Member
Read every word of your reply. understood. Thanks.
So if you only advise to use HCG in the first week of PCT only, what HCG dose do you recommend for a newbie that is finishing up a 12 week cycle of test only at 500mg/wk?
If you don't want to answer here and clutter this thread with non Tren context, I would highly appreciate it if you PM me. Thank you!
Last edited by Trying-Hard; 08-15-2012 at 03:16 PM.
Banned
IF you are dead-set on using HCG, 500iu/day for the first week or so (7-10 days) with aromasin as your aromatase inhibitor at full dose 25mg/day while you use the HCG. Nolvadex is taken this whole time as well. When the HCG stops, the Aromasin stops. The Nolvadex is then continued for the duration of your PCT.
Idea here is to immediately stimulate the leydig cells of the testes with synthetic gonadotropins (HCG) in the first week. After that, the testes should be sufficiently stimulated to be producing testosterone while the administration of nolvadex is stimulating the pituitary to release endogenous gonadotropin to carry things along permanently.
Associate Member
So an AI during PCT? Man, once again going against everything I have read. lol. Shit is confusing.
No worries, I will figure it out. Thanks, bro. Your time and knowledge are much appreciated.
Banned
The reason for the AI during PCT is two-fold, but mostly for one reason: The HCG.
Reason being is that when you use HCG, it will increase aromatase and estrogen activity in addition to stimulating testosterone secretion. With aromatase also going up, we can't afford to have this especially at a time when we want to keep estrogen manageable, and we are trying to recover from the cycle we just did. Therefore, aromasin keeps the increased aromatase activity (due to the HCG) in check.
The other more minor reason is that lowering estrogen creates a feedback loop whereby the pituitary will signal more gonadotropin release to increase testosterone production. I myself have run Nolvadex and Aromasin PCTs before (without HCG), and my recovery was just fine.
I would suggest you go to the PCT section of the forum and look at the thread 'PCT by steroid.com' (it should be stickied).
Junior Member
Atomini, great thread.
Quick question for you, think you covered this but gonna double check.
I was planing on running a cycle similiar to:
Week 1-12: Sus 500mg - 750mg
Week 1-10: Tren E 600mg
Week 1-6: Dbol 50mg ED
Now, I read how tren is 5x stronger then test, and how you suggest using higher tren, and trt dose of test...
So, in LBM gain, am I wasting the extra 500mg etc of testosterone? Will it make any extra gains or more side effects, due to elevated estrogen?
Would you suggest:
Week 1-12: SUS 250mg
Week 1-10: Tren E 600mg
Week 1-6: Dbol 50mg ED
Thanks a lot, appreciate it.
Associate Member
Ok, and just for the sake of availability, can I use Arimidex instead or Aromasin? If so, how would you dose that with the HCG? Right now I am taking A-dex @ .25mg EOD (irrelevant to the discussion, just threw that out there).
Atomini, my wife is a doc and you should have seen her facial expression when I told her I am going to get on Cabergoline one day when I get on Tren. LOL. I am sure you would have gotten a good laugh.
Banned
No, do not use Arimidex in place of Aromasin. It is not a suicidal AI. Aromasin is, which is what we want. Aromasin also works very well when taking Nolvadex. Arimidex and Letro have been shown to dramatically lower blood plasma levels of Nolvadex - not something very good for PCT! Aromasin is also far better on cholesterol profiles than the other two major AIs.
Did your wife give you that look as though she was scared that she wouldn't be able to keep up in bed? Because that's exactly what that stuff will do to you, you'll be able to outperform any woman lol.
The extra 500mg of testosterone won't necessarily be 'wasted'. However, you will likely have a much higher chance of side effects due to elevated estrogen, as you have mentioned. This is all covered in the main post.
Your revised cycle looks much better, although I would eliminate sustanon and use a single-estered testosterone instead of a blend. Use test E instead... I hate sustanon or any testosterone blend product. There are a few posts and threads in this forum that explain why sustanon is a horrible product that throws blood plasma levels all over the place and creates sharp peaks and valleys, which ends up causing stupid side effects all the time. In order to make the most of sustanon, you need to be pinning it every other day as well.
And as far as the dbol goes... i'd say scrap it, but that's just me... i'm the guy who hates on every anabolic steroid that isn't test or tren. If you're using it for a kickstart, then sure, go ahead I guess.
Senior Member
maybe you should make a thread about using letro as PCT so that people understand why and how if using a ai with nova during pct confuses them. Would be a great read
Banned
Letro as PCT? I've never ever mentioned anything to that effect.
A lot of the info on how certain AIs interact with nolvadex can be found in the PCT section.
Senior Member
sorry "if" u were experienced with running letro with pct the actual concept behind i was figuring would be interesting for new users. or yes i suppose pointing them to teh educational forum.
Banned
Nope, I have no experience running Letro at all for anything. I've never had to use it, nor have I ever had the desire to use it. Letro is a bad choice for PCT as well.
Banned
I do, that stuff if deadlyNo way for pct, but if you get the dose right oncyle say .25 mg twice a week, prolly work wonders.
Senior Member
i think the idea is it can increase your test a fair amount, but its some advanced shit i know nothing of. Ive seen articles talking of bridging and pct with letro. but no experience myself so cant say much on teh subject,I do, that stuff if deadly
Banned
Still not something i'd use for PCT. Aromasin can increase testosterone levels as well, through the feedback loop mechanism created when estrogen levels plummet. But Letro for a fact reduces blood plasma concentrations of Nolvadex, so this creates a huge problem during PCT if one of your recovery compounds is Nolvadex. This is why Aromasin pairs much better with Nolva.
Banned
Why are you throwing the tren into week 4? Why not just run it from the beginning?
Why letro through the whole cycle? Horrible idea, don't bother.
Here's a better plan for you:
Weeks 1-4: Dbol @ 50mg/day
Weeks 1-10: Tren Ace @ 100mg EOD (NOT m/w/f unless you want wildly spiking blood levels going up and down like rollercoasters, and end up with worse side effects - just make sure its EOD)
Keep aromasin on hand for estrogen control to combat any potential estrogen-related side effects (do not use letro, its overkill and you will get estrogen rebound when you cease it). PCT looks solid. I like how you went with the PCT by steroid.com, it is my favorite.
New Member
Thanks Atomini.
What about the test e? and is it ok for the dbol oral or get the injectable?
Banned
I didn't comment on the test E because it was fine the way you laid it out. 250mg split into 2x per week is just fine.
Dbol injectable is the same as the oral, and will have equally damaging effects on the liver, so just go with the oral.
In my personal opinion, i'd get rid of the dbol all together and just stick with test and tren. Everyone around here knows I hate every other steroid that doesn't start with 'T' and end with 'renbolone' (with the exception of test, and to a lesser extent, Masteron).
New Member
i can also get liquid prami. should i get that too as well?
Dbol
Test E
Tren Ace
Nolva
UDCA
Prami
Vitamin E
Aromasin
Look good to go?
Banned
Prami or Caber, something to combat rising prolactin levels. Looks good to go.
New Member
Pramipexole has a half-life between 8-10 hours.
Liquid Prami 1mg/mL 60mL
what you think i should take dosage wise?
Senior Member
What are you thoughts on running caber with a test cycle? I hear guys say they get crazy libio boost from running Tren. But, I am wondering if it is actually the Caber that is boosting libido and not the Tren; if this is correct could you run Caber w/ test for a (further) libido boost?
Banned
Theoretically tren should boost libido as well, considering it is 5x more androgenic than testosterone. But the reason why it fails at doing so (and even further makes it worse) is because of its prolactin increasing effects. By using a prolactin antagonist, you can effectively boost your libido from the effect of the prolactin antagonist itself, and through blocking/reducing prolactin secretion, this should be able to allow trenbolone's androgenic side effect of libido increase be able to shine as well.
Yes, you could take cabergoline with testosterone for a further libido boost. Porn actors use this well known method.
Associate Member
Hi there, I have a simple question. I`ll be running :
1-8 test enanthat 500 mg
1-8 tren enanthat 300 mg
What is the right dose of Bromocryptine for me and do i still need to use 75 mg vitamin B6 daily?
Please, do not critic my choice - just where i`m based Bromo costs 10x less than Caber or Prami.
I have no access to AI after all, thus adding 20 mg tamoxifen during this cycle makes sense?
thanks for your input
Banned
If you can't get an AI, keeping tamoxifen ON HAND is a good idea. I would not use it on-cycle unless you absolutely have the urgent need to. Vitamin B6 will assist in keeping prolactin levels low alongside Bromocriptine, but if you are using Bromo, it will generally overshadow the capabilities of vitamin B6. You can find your appropriate Bromocriptine dose by looking up and reading up on Bromocriptine profiles.
Banned
Good to know about B6, how much would you take on cycle as well as bromo?
Banned
Here is a list of studies plus a bit of info you can look up that have shown vitamin B6 does lower prolactin levels:
- J Clin Endocrinol Metab 1976 Mar;42(3):603-6
Effect of pyridoxine on human hypophyseal trophic hormone release: a possible stimulation of hypothalamic dopaminergic pathway.
- Delitala G, Masala A, Alagna S, Devilla L.
"A single dose of pyridoxine (300 mg iv) produced significant rises in peak levels of immunoreactive growth hormone GH and significant decrease of plasma prolactin PRL in 8 hospitalized healthy subjects. Serum glucose, luteinizing hormone LH, follicle stimulating hormone FSH and thyrotropin TSH were not altered significantly. In addition, in 5 acromegalic patients who were studied with both L-dopa and pyridoxine, inhibition of GH secretion followed either agent in a similar pattern. These data suggest a hypothalamic dopaminergic effect of pyridoxine."
- N Engl J Med 1982 Aug 12;307(7):444-5
Pyridoxine (B6) suppresses the rise in prolactin and increases the rise in growth hormone induced by exercise.
- Moretti C, Fabbri A, Gnessi L, Bonifacio V, Fraioli F, Isidori A.
- Boll Soc Ital Biol Sper 1984 Feb 28;60(2):273-8
- Barletta C, Sellini M, Bartoli A, Bigi C, Buzzetti R, Giovannini C.
"The influence of vitamin B6 in a dosage of 300 mg X 2 in 24 hrs, on circadian rhythm of plasmatic ACTH, cortisol, prolactin and somatotropin have been studied in 10 normal women. After vitamin B6 24 hrs pattern of ACTH and cortisol is unchanged; prolactin levels are slightly lower, in a statistically unsignificant proportion the night peak of growth hormone is higher in a statistically significant proportion (p. 0.05). The effect of vitamin B6 is likely to me mediated by dopaminergic receptors at hypothalamic level as previous studies by other Authors appear to prove."
Knowledgeable Member
Atomini,
The studies you cite all show that B6 lowers prolactin levels. One study mentions 300 mg given by iv. In the other studies is the B6 given by iv as well or orally? How would oral administration affect the effectiveness and dosage of B6 to lower prolactin?
Great thread man. Thanks.
Banned
I can't really definitiveely give an answer on that. I know that many studies are done in this manner, where whatever substance in question is administered IV instead of orally. And therefore, it presents an unrealistic setting that has no real-world application. But there are some substances that when administered IV are no different than administered orally - and I think vitamin B6 is one of them. I am pretty sure the oral effectiveness is not too far off from IV.
Banned
Pramiprexole dose guidelines are explained in the main post and in the FAQ, you can find it there. 0.5mg per day to start with, and slowly increase dosage to 1mg per day (or more, if required) depending on the user's tolerance to the side effects.
Side note to everyone: I don't mean to offend anyone, but I will no longer be answering questions that have already been answered in either the main article, in the FAQ, or throughout the thread's discussion. It is simply a waste of my time to be answering questions that have already been answered. I don't mind answering questions concerning topics that have not been covered, or advanced topics concerning trenbolone use. But, this is not meant to be a thread whereby people are spoonfed information that is already laid out to them not just in this article, but elsewhere in the forum. Not only are topics such as dosage guidelines for Prami and Caber already answered here, but a simple search in the profiles section of the forum will answer these queries as well.
New Member
This thread is the BEES KNEES! However, I understand that you don't want to spoon feed people to much and want to keep this thread informative as much as possible.
But it would very AWESOME if you could post an example of a tren cycle in which you would recommend for your close friends for his first time tren usage.
And if you could go back to your first cycle (of using tren) what would you do things differently?
Banned
First time tren cycle I would say could be:
100mg/week testosterone (any ester)
250-300mg/week trenbolone (any ester)
There isn't much i'd do differently if I were to go back to my first tren cycle. I think the only thing I would probably change if I could is start off with my low dose test protocol. My very first tren cycle was the typical 400mg/week Test Prop with 300-400mg/week of Tren Ace. I've realized anything above the TRT mark for test is really useless and not very optimal with trenbolone cycles. I find it best to center trenbolone as the primary anabolic.
New Member
How does this look like for a first time tren user.
Week 1-8 Test prop at 100 mg per week. (Should this be divided in 25mg eod or just one shot per week?).
week 1-8 tren ace at 75 mg eod (300mg per week)
week 1-8 arimdex at .5 eod
week 1-8 nolva 20mg eod
week 1-8 Caber 1 mg pw (should this be divided in differnt doses or just take one pill of mg on monday and next mon again?)
Pct start time 2 weeks after last injection of prob. I'd go with the pct from steroids.com
Critique the cycle and please do find faults.
New Member
Week 1-8 Test prop at 100 mg per week. 25 mg EOD.
week 1-8 tren ace at 75 mg eod (300mg per week)
Wait...should i keep the test prob 1 week longer than Tren?
Or does this cycle seem okay?
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