TRT - Self Administered?

[MickeyKnox]

Hey GB, i hope there light at the end of the tunnel with your new Doc!

Re: Appts. - Does this have anything to do with bloods? Trough? Im not i sure i understand the reasoning either.

[gbrice75]

Hey GB, i hope there light at the end of the tunnel with your new Doc!

Re: Appts. - Does this have anything to do with bloods? Trough? Im not i sure i understand the reasoning either.

Thank MK. Hoping others will chime in re: injection time and how it relates (or doesn't) to when blood is drawn for labs.

[kelkel]

Most doc's are hooked on trough levels which is why they want BW prior to injection. An astute doc would be able to interpret your results no matter when your injection/BW was done. If you pulled blood 2-3 days after injection you'd be at peak levels which may actually scare your doc into lowering you dosage.

You doing once a week or twice GB?

[gbrice75]

Most doc's are hooked on trough levels which is why they want BW prior to injection. An astute doc would be able to interpret your results no matter when your injection/BW was done. If you pulled blood 2-3 days after injection you'd be at peak levels which may actually scare your doc into lowering you dosage.

You doing once a week or twice GB?

This current doc isn't too astute with regards to TRT. I'm doing twice a week, every 3.5 days.

[kelkel]

So your never really off peak!

[gbrice75]

So your never really off peak!

Guess not lol. Not a bad thing, right!?

[kelkel]

That would be my goal as well.

A goal is S-M-A-R-T: Specific-Measurable-Attainable-Realistic-Time Framed!

[gbrice75]

That would be my goal as well.

A goal is S-M-A-R-T: Specific-Measurable-Attainable-Realistic-Time Framed!

Guess i'm on the right track then!?

I'll update with how it goes with the new doc tomorrow.

[gbrice75]

So I had my appt. with an endo. I'M SOO disappointed!! It went horribly. First, the guy had such a thick accent I had to ask him to repeat himself several times. Second, he was another 'old timer' and clearly wasn't even aware of current TRT protocols.

The positives: As an endo, he was more interested in getting to the root cause of my low T (i.e. primary/secondary hypogonadal, etc) versus simply treating it. Basically he wanted to find out whether the problem was with my testicles, or pituitary, and then come up with a plan from there. My current doc (not an endo) failed to do this. My 'diagnosis' was simply 'low T'.

The negatives: He was completely thrown off by my current protocol. He said that 'we' (endo's) don't do this (my protocol) at all. He wasn't keen on injections, stating that they cause too many 'peaks and dips' in blood levels. Despite me explaining I inject every 3.5 days to offset this, he proceeded to tell me that injections should ideally be done once every 2 weeks. I was ready to walk out at that point.

He then told me that my HCG protocol was a joke. Honestly, I don't even think he understood why I was using it (to maintain testicular normality, fertility, etc). He told me I was trying to put out a fire by spitting on it.

Ultimately, he wants me to come off TRT for a few weeks, then go for blood work. He wants to see how low/high my T is naturally, basically starting over. Depending on what he sees, he might have me get an MRI. I'm definitely not opposed to that considering my recent (and seemingly ongoing) elevated prolactin. He'd ultimately like to see if he can keep me off TRT and get things working efficiently enough on their own. I don't want to do this for obvious reasons... I don't want to feel like crap for weeks on end, etc. Having said that, if my body can work efficiently enough to get off TRT, i'd LOVE that option. It's a pain in the ass (NO, not a pun - I pin my quads exclusively!) between injections, Dr visits, labs, blood donating, etc. For life. I'm 37. Life is (hopefully) a long time!

So here I am again, at a crossroad. I'm definitely not going back to this guy, but now I'm left a bit paranoid about what I'm potentially doing to my body (HPTA specifically) where the problem may not be too severe to begin with. I just don't know anymore. I've pretty much exhausted endo's in my area. My last shot is to find a urologist with a clue. Ugh!

[Vettester]

Oh my!! Sounds like you crossed paths with a real quack!! The best thing you stated out of that whole post was, "I'm definitely not going back to this guy". That's the best move you could do.

As I see it, you're on TRT because your HPTA probably isn't functioning properly already, and/or your testicles (primary) were not functioning and producing testosterone efficiently. However, if the HCG was working, then it's pretty safe to say you had a secondary condition you first started. At this stage, if you run all the labs, your HPTA is going to show suppression regardless if you were primary or secondary.

Presuming you were put on TRT due to low T to begin with. It might not hurt to get an MRI since nobody ever ruled out a tumor, or even confirmed your diagnosis, but if the worse thing is that you need TRT for life, then there's no harm with just replenishing your body with a balanced amount of testosterone, which you would be naturally producing if everything worked accordingly.

And the comment your endo made about HCG (spitting on a fire), just shows what his value is. He is worthless, plain and simple! I don't have a problem that some of these guys don't like injection steroids and other compounds to treat men, that's their prerogative. However, the issue is that they just make up propaganda without any facts. E.g., your endo stating that "ideally" injections should be done every 2 weeks. Here he is lecturing you about peaks and valleys, yet he knows nothing about half-life and what 14 days will do to a patient. In response, dealing with endos like this one is more like throwing grease into the fire. He (and others like him) are more detrimental to a patient than anything else! It's sad to know that we have new members on this forum with less than a week of educating, who basically know more about HRT than a doctor with a lifetime of experience.

[gbrice75]

Oh my!! Sounds like you crossed paths with a real quack!! The best thing you stated out of that whole post was, "I'm definitely not going back to this guy". That's the best move you could do.

Thanks for the reassurance!

As I see it, you're on TRT because your HPTA probably isn't functioning properly already, and/or your testicles (primary) were not functioning and producing testosterone efficiently. However, if the HCG was working, then it's pretty safe to say you had a secondary condition you first started. At this stage, if you run all the labs, your HPTA is going to show suppression regardless if you were primary or secondary.

When you say "if the HCG is working" - with regards to what specifically? As far as I can tell, I have no way to know if they're producing endogenous test. I can happily say that I don't believe there has been any shrinkage, and there is definitely no pain. I am also awaiting semen analysis results, and hoping to see good quality sperm with a healthy count.

What would be an example of a secondary condition? I assume primary would be either a problem with the testicles themselves, or the pituitary. Would secondary be the result of an injury for instance?

Presuming you were put on TRT due to low T to begin with. It might not hurt to get an MRI since nobody ever ruled out a tumor, or even confirmed your diagnosis, but if the worse thing is that you need TRT for life, then there's no harm with just replenishing your body with a balanced amount of testosterone, which you would be naturally producing if everything worked accordingly.

I just get freaked out once in a while... like... what might be the long term effects of total HPTA suppression... what might be the long term effects of producing absolutely no FSH or LH, etc.

And the comment your endo made about HCG (spitting on a fire), just shows what his value is. He is worthless, plain and simple! I don't have a problem that some of these guys don't like injection steroids and other compounds to treat men, that's their prerogative. However, the issue is that they just make up propaganda without any facts. E.g., your endo stating that "ideally" injections should be done every 2 weeks. Here he is lecturing you about peaks and valleys, yet he knows nothing about half-life and what 14 days will do to a patient. In response, dealing with endos like this one is more like throwing grease into the fire. He (and others like him) are more detrimental to a patient than anything else! It's sad to know that we have new members on this forum with less than a week of educating, who basically know more about HRT than a doctor with a lifetime of experience.

Well said brother. Don't get me wrong - I am EXTREMELY glad to have guys like you, Kel, GD, etc. available for consultation like this. But it is a shame that I/we have to go to the doc first and THEN come to a steroid board to get the real scoop from relative strangers.

For now... fingers crossed for the semen analysis results. If sperm count is low and/or motility abnormal (both were in a healthy range when I last had a test done about 2 years ago), I'll have no choice but to come off TRT, run an aggressive PCT and try to get the boys up to par as my wife and I would like to have another baby ASAP!

[Vettester]

Thanks for the reassurance!



When you say "if the HCG is working" - with regards to what specifically? As far as I can tell, I have no way to know if they're producing endogenous test. I can happily say that I don't believe there has been any shrinkage, and there is definitely no pain. I am also awaiting semen analysis results, and hoping to see good quality sperm with a healthy count. In my case, I definitely noticed a difference when I started taking HCG. Not only did my testicles increase in size, but the ejaculation volume went through the ceiling (literally). My left testicle is super sensitive to being suppressed, and it will act up if I miss a shot of HCG, or if my HCG starts to lose it's potency (seen that start at/around 48 to 50 days). Everyone is different, but if HCG is effective, you should notice some improvements, as listed above, or you should notice it going the other way if you stop taking HCG

What would be an example of a secondary condition? I assume primary would be either a problem with the testicles themselves, or the pituitary. Would secondary be the result of an injury for instance? Secondary can occur due to many reasons (tumors, substance use, thyroid conditions, etc), including no reason at all, but just getting older. The getting older part is also known as Andropause; basically mimicking a similar process that women see with menopause. It's just nature's way of telling us that we have passed our peak years for procreation, and we are no longer the competitive young guys trying to make a name in the tribe. YES, primary would indicate a problem with the testicles, leydig cell issues, tumors, other pathologies ... We normally see members having elevated LH/FSH levels and low test serum when there's a testicular (primary) condition.



I just get freaked out once in a while... like... what might be the long term effects of total HPTA suppression... what might be the long term effects of producing absolutely no FSH or LH, etc. There is really no negative prognosis associated with long-term HPTA suppression, except that the natural course of testosterone/sperm will be effected due to no or little LH/FSH being produced, and functioning via the negative feedback loop channel with the testicles. The anterior pituitary could also be experiencing other issues with synthesizing hormones like TSH, ACTH, Prolactin, and of course GnRH; leading to LH/FSH. So, it's imperative to run complete and comprehensive assays for comparative reviews, and to include MRI's to rule out tumors and other diseases.



Well said brother. Don't get me wrong - I am EXTREMELY glad to have guys like you, Kel, GD, etc. available for consultation like this. But it is a shame that I/we have to go to the doc first and THEN come to a steroid board to get the real scoop from relative strangers.

For now... fingers crossed for the semen analysis results. If sperm count is low and/or motility abnormal (both were in a healthy range when I last had a test done about 2 years ago), I'll have no choice but to come off TRT, run an aggressive PCT and try to get the boys up to par as my wife and I would like to have another baby ASAP!


GB, since HCG provides the LH analogue, you will probably see "less than satisfactory" results with your sperm analysis and motility labs. FSH is the primary hormone and signal to trigger spermatogenesis. Save yourself the hassle of coming off TRT to achieve this. Your reason to do this would be to apply a PCT, like Clomid, which would stimulate both LH & FSH production, correct? Well, then just add HMG to protocol, very similar to HCG, but with HMG you will get both the LH and the FSH analogs! I would advise seeking out a fertility physician that is familiar with this treatment. Again, the sertoli cells respond to FSH, as do the leydigs to LH. It doesn't matter how they get these hormones, just as long as they get them. You can come off of TRT and try to naturally provide these cells the needed hormones to function, or you can stay on TRT and guarantee that both LH and FSH will be sent to them. The only variable is, how healthy and functional are the testicles? Only BW can tell the truth on that one ... So to conclude, you actually do have a choice in the matter. For me, the choice is obvious, WHY come off of TRT when science has made it possible for you to have the best of all worlds? Food for thought.

GB, responses in bolds

[gbrice75]

GB, responses in bolds

Wow Vette, thanks for all of the detail - and I clearly have a lot to think about. I was under the impression that since we use HCG to maintain regular testicular function (including spermatogenesis), semen analysis labs should come back relatively 'normal'. It upsets me to read anything to the contrary... but we'll just have to see. I do know 3 guys (all members of this board) who are all on TRT and cycle regularly, but all managed to knock up their respective ladies. That does give me some light at the end of the tunnel.

I have looked into HMG, actually before starting TRT.. but as you probably know, it's EXTREMELY expensive. If I recall, a single shot is upwards of $30. From what I've read, it's basically equal parts FSH/LH. I'm actually wondering if introducing Clomid while still on TRT would have any effect?

[FONZY007]

Wow Vette, thanks for all of the detail - and I clearly have a lot to think about. I was under the impression that since we use HCG to maintain regular testicular function (including spermatogenesis), semen analysis labs should come back relatively 'normal'. It upsets me to read anything to the contrary... but we'll just have to see. I do know 3 guys (all members of this board) who are all on TRT and cycle regularly, but all managed to knock up their respective ladies. That does give me some light at the end of the tunnel.

I have looked into HMG, actually before starting TRT.. but as you probably know, it's EXTREMELY expensive. If I recall, a single shot is upwards of $30. From what I've read, it's basically equal parts FSH/LH. I'm actually wondering if introducing Clomid while still on TRT would have any effect?

GB I came off trt and had a babygirl successfully.. I did a pct with clomid and HCG, before I was out of the PCT she was pregnant!! I waited till she was past her first trimester and jumped back on my trt

[kelkel]

Just getting caught up on your thread GB. Damn, another wack job doc who doesn't understand hormones and expects to be able to blow smoke up the patients ars. Reminds me of my endo, Clueless and subsequently fired!

Great advice from Vette!

[gbrice75]

Just getting caught up on your thread GB. Damn, another wack job doc who doesn't understand hormones and expects to be able to blow smoke up the patients ars. Reminds me of my endo, Clueless and subsequently fired!

Great advice from Vette!

Agreed Kel. And so the search continues...

Sorry didn't know you responded, just got off right off the bat.. And like less than 2 months she was pregnant

Awesome!! Did you say you we're using clomid? At what dosage? Anything else?

[FONZY007]

Agreed Kel. And so the search continues...

Awesome!! Did you say you we're using clomid? At what dosage? Anything else?

Yea clomid at 50mgs and nolvedex at 40mgs

[gbrice75]

Yea clomid at 50mgs and nolvedex at 40mgs

Good to know bro!!

[gbrice75]

New labs!!

Giving everything I believe is important - as always, let me know if there's anything not listed that you'd like to see:

WBC - 8.6 x10E3/uL (4.0-10.5)
RBC - 5.81 x10E6/uL (4.14-5.80) HIGH
Hemoglobin - 17.6 g/dL (12.6-17.7)
Hematocrit - 49.9 % (37.5-51.0)

BUN - 23 mg/dL (6-20) HIGH - is this a concern??

Testosterone, Serum - 1251 ng/dL (348-1197) HIGH
Free Testosterone (Direct) 39.3 pg/mL (8.7-25.1) HIGH

T4, Free (direct) 1.13 ng/dL (0.82-1.77)

Cortisol - 4.3 ug/dL (2.3-19.4) I know elevated cortisol is no good, but isn't this a bit TOO low??

DHEA, Serum - 82 ng/dL (31-701) This pisses me off as I've been supplementing DHEA (50mg/day) for months now and it never seems to rise. WTF!!

TSH - 3.050 uIU/mL (0.450-4.500)

Prolactin - 15.9 ng/mL (4.0-15.2) HIGH - again, pisses me off because I don't know why. Been supp'ing B6 (actually B Complex but plenty of 6) to try and bring this down.

Estradiol - 28.9 pg/mL (7.6-42.6)

Vitamin D, 24-Hydroxy 60.5 ng/mL (30.0-100.0)

Thyroxine (T4) 6.9 ug/dL (4.5-12.0)

Triiodothyronine (T3) 119 ng/dL (71-180)

Triiodothyronine, Free, Serum 3.2 pg/mL (2.0-4.4)

SHGB, Serum 33.9 nmol/L (16.5-55.9)

Please let me know what you think guys. This is my 2nd lab where prolactin is elevated and I have NO IDEA why that would be. E2 looks good... should I look into getting an MRI at this point? Does anybody know the general cost for one? I have an odd insurance plan and need to do my due diligence with this stuff.

[gbrice75]

Bump! C'mon fellas. Help ol' GB out here... u know this isn't my comfort zone!

[Vettester]

G, it's normal for the RBC's to be on the climb with TRT. Just get into the mode of donating blood every couple of months. That will keep you in check.

Don't sweat too much on the BUN test. It can be related to hydration, protein, workout related ... At 23mg, I wouldn't get too excited.

Your testosterone is up probably due to your protocol. When did you take labs in relation to your injection? Your free test is in suit with your total test, sitting at the 3.1%. That tells me your SHBG is probably relatively low. Nothing wrong with that, as mine and others is low. I think you started on Vitamin D as well, which will help lower SHBG, thus increasing your free testosterone. 2% to 3% IMO is where most guys should be, and if you're a little over then so be it. Mine has been around 3.3% on the last few. So, essentially, you don't really need as much medication as the guy with 2% free testosterone to achieve comparable results.

Have you taken any of the Nor 19 compounds lately? (Deca, tren)? They will obviously contribute to an increase of prolactin. Have you administered any dopamine agonist medications in the past, e.g., caber, prami, for managing the prolactin. I'd never say no to a good MRI. If you haven't had one, then it won't hurt to have a physician review it with you.

[gbrice75]

G, it's normal for the RBC's to be on the climb with TRT. Just get into the mode of donating blood every couple of months. That will keep you in check.

I remember somebody recently mentioned an article or sticky or something, re: donating blood and how to answer the questions so there are no issues. Do you know what i'm referring to? If so, can you point me to it?

Don't sweat too much on the BUN test. It can be related to hydration, protein, workout related ... At 23mg, I wouldn't get too excited.

Good deal. Probably hydration... or lack thereof. I admittedly NEVER drink enough water... one of my biggest issues.

Your testosterone is up probably due to your protocol. When did you take labs in relation to your injection? Your free test is in suit with your total test, sitting at the 3.1%. That tells me your SHBG is probably relatively low. Nothing wrong with that, as mine and others is low. I think you started on Vitamin D as well, which will help lower SHBG, thus increasing your free testosterone. 2% to 3% IMO is where most guys should be, and if you're a little over then so be it. Mine has been around 3.3% on the last few. So, essentially, you don't really need as much medication as the guy with 2% free testosterone to achieve comparable results.

I'm really happy with the free... I could do with the total being lower, but like you said, lowering my dosage should help with that. Blood was drawn for this lab around 4pm on a Friday - my last shot prior to that was about 6pm Wednesday, so roughly 48 hours between.

Yes, I've been supplementing D3 to lower SHBG (it was at the high end of the range when I started TRT, so i'm really happy with it right now)... stinging nettles as well although I recently ran out.

Have you taken any of the Nor 19 compounds lately? (Deca, tren)? They will obviously contribute to an increase of prolactin. Have you administered any dopamine agonist medications in the past, e.g., caber, prami, for managing the prolactin. I'd never say no to a good MRI. If you haven't had one, then it won't hurt to have a physician review it with you.

Nope, no 19 Nor compounds whatsoever. Nothing except my TRT protocol. I'm definitely going to make an appt. with my PC and talk about an MRI. The problem is he admittedly doesn't understand the endocrine system and is going to refer me to an endo... which I've had zero success finding a good one as of yet. AHHHH!!!

Thanks for your feedback as always Vette.

[gbrice75]

Update - appt. to give blood this Sunday!! Also started adex to see if that brings down prolactin (indirectly) levels. Next labs will tell. .25mg every 3.5 days, so very little to start.

[kelkel]

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/9619713

Personally I don't think you'll get much out of adex for prolactin control, even though estrogen and prolactin basically oppose each other. Meaning when one elevates the other suppresses. Minimal at best IMHO.

Why not go straight to caber instead of the end run above. Caber a .25 twice per week will crush your prolactin level.

Refresh me. Are you on thyroid meds?

[gbrice75]

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/9619713

Personally I don't think you'll get much out of adex for prolactin control, even though estrogen and prolactin basically oppose each other. Meaning when one elevates the other suppresses. Minimal at best IMHO.

Interesting... I've read the exact opposite - that elevated E2 can lead to 'prog like' sides, including elevated prolactin. I've never heard that they oppose each other. Not debating you, just stating that. Very interesting... and disheartening. I thought that lowering E2 may in turn lower PRL... this study points out the exact opposite - or no change at all, best case scenario.

Why not go straight to caber instead of the end run above. Caber a .25 twice per week will crush your prolactin level.

Refresh me. Are you on thyroid meds?

No thyroid meds at all. Re: not running caber - it's not that i'm opposed to it specifically, but I was hoping to deal with these issues with as few drugs as possible, and since I probably need low dose AI anyway, I thought I'd kill 2 birds...

[gbrice75]

It's been a while, I figured I'd update everybody as to the latest.

A lot has gone on since I last logged. I was able to get my PCP to agree to take over my TRT care and continue with my existing protocol. This is wonderful news for me for many reasons:

1 - he's in my healthcare network. The doc I was seeing wasn't, and I had to pay out of pocket for office visits

2 - he writes me scripts for labs and I just go to Labcorp at my convenience. The last doc drew blood at his office then sent it out. That meant double the number of office visits ($$ and inconvenience) - 1 just to draw blood, and a follow up to review results.

3 - he's in my hometown. I can schedule appts. right after work as his office is on my way home. The last doc was in the same town I work in, and I had to schedule appts during work time. When appts would run late (as they always do), I'd wind up with anxiety worrying about work, etc.

4 - before I started TRT, I called my PCP (obviously) to ask if they dealt with this kind of care. I was told (by the front desk, not the doc) that he only prescribes gel, etc. By having already established a protocol with the other doc, it was pretty easy for me to walk in with recent labs, show my PCP what we've been doing, and ask him to simply 'take over'. He agreed without batting an eyelash.

Now, on to a few issues/questions. With the last doc, I was never asked to fast before they drew blood. This doc told me to, and further, at Labcorp this morning (results posted as soon as I have em' in hand) I was asked if I had eaten. Was the last doc doing me a disservice by not having me fast? Could EVERYTHING potentially have been skewed?

Next - with the last doc, they drew LOTS of blood - I mean upwards of 10 vials. I just figured that was necessary given all the labs I was asking to have done (CBC, Lipids, Metabolic, Cortisol, E2, Prolactin, etc). At Labcorp this morning, only 3 vials were drawn. Was the original doc overdoing it, or did Labcorp fvck up this morning? This has me concerned.

Finally - I've been feeling pretty good lately. I'm VERY curious to see how prolactin comes back, because I haven't really been experiencing the symptoms lately which I believe were related to slightly elevated PRL. I'm also interested to see how test and cortisol come back now that labs were done in the am, fasted.

Currently, I'm still at 200mg/week (100mg every 3.5 days) and HCG at 300iu 3x weekly (Mon-Wed-Fri). Still no AI, no signs of E2 sides as far as I can tell. Hopefully, they'll get the fcking sensitive assay right this time as I gave Labcorp their own codes directly (thanks for the info Kel).

I'll follow up with lab results asap. In the meantime, I very much look forward to any/all feedback!

[FONZY007]

Cool, looks good. Pretty much the same thing I did.. Well my endo said to start to see my GP

[bigt405]

As far as the blood goes my doctor takes 3 vials also, but has never said anything about fasting.

[GeriatricOne]

Ditto, 3 vials and not always full vials, and never told to fast. In fact, on my 1st blood draw appointment I asked if I should fast and was told it was not necessary for the testosterone related tests.

[gbrice75]

Cool, looks good. Pretty much the same thing I did.. Well my endo said to start to see my GP

As far as the blood goes my doctor takes 3 vials also, but has never said anything about fasting.

Ditto, 3 vials and not always full vials, and never told to fast. In fact, on my 1st blood draw appointment I asked if I should fast and was told it was not necessary for the testosterone related tests.

Thanks guys, sounds like 3 vials is pretty standard. Maybe the last doc was a fvcking sadist!?!

As for fasting - good to know, doesn't sound like it's necessary. It wasn't a big deal though as I went in the morning, basically just skipped breakfast, which allowed me to eat more later in the day.

[gbrice75]

Bump. Kel, GD, Vette, Bass, HRT... fellas?! lol

[gbrice75]

Latest Labs (LabCorp). Blood drawn in the am, fasted state:

Note: this was taken from a report that gets emailed to me, so it's not the 'hard copy', hence, you'll see some numbers that only show > vs. the actual number. I'll update with the actual figure when I have the hard copy in my hands.

Testosterone, Free and Total
Free Testosterone (Direct) >50.0 8 (7-25.1)
Testosterone, Serum >1500 (348-1197)

Note: Holy shit! Free test is above 50? Anything to worry about here?

CBC/Diff Ambiguous Default
Neutrophils 65 % (40-74)
Baso (Absolute) 0.0 x10E3/uL (0.0-0.2)
Lymphs 24 % (14-46)
Immature Granulocytes 0 % (0-2)
Hematocrit 48.3 % (37.5-51.0)
RBC 5.20 x10E6/uL (4.14-5.80)
MCH 30.6 pg (26.6-33.0)
MCHC 32.9 g/dL (31.5-35.7)
MCV 93 fL (79-97)
Monocytes 8 % (4-13)
Hemoglobin 15.9 g/dL (12.6-17.7)
Lymphs (Absolute) 1.6 x10E3/uL (0.7-4.5)
Immature Grans (Abs) 0.0 x10E3/uL (0.0-0.1)
Eos (Absolute) 0.1 x10E3/uL (0.0-0.4)
WBC 6.4 x10E3/uL (4.0-10.5)
RDW 14.6 % (12.3-15.4)
Platelets 201 x10E3/uL (140-415)
Eos 2 % (0-7)
Neutrophils (Absolute) 4.2 x10E3/uL (1.8-7.8)
Basos 1 % (0-3)
Monocytes(Absolute) 0.5 x10E3/uL (0.1-1.0)

Estradiol, Sensitive
Estradiol, Sensitive 39 pg/mL (3-70)

Sex Horm Binding Glob, Serum
Sex Horm Binding Glob, Serum 40.4 nmol/L (16.5-55.9)

Note: Not thrilled with this number. Stopped taking nettle root a while ago (simply ran out)... looks like I need to restock.

Prolactin
Prolactin 9.3 ng/mL (4.0-15.2)

Note: VERY happy with this. As some of you may remember, mine was (slightly) elevated the last couple of labs.

Comp. Metabolic Panel
BUN 26 mg/dL (6-20) Flagged High
Sodium, Serum 136 mmol/L (134-144)
Glucose, Serum 82 mg/dL (65-99)
Creatinine, Serum 1.19 mg/dL (0.76-1.27)
Albumin, Serum 4.3 g/dL (3.5-5.5)
Carbon Dioxide, Total 23 mmol/L (20-32)
Potassium, Serum 4.2 mmol/L (3.5-5.2)
Calcium, Serum 9.0 mg/dL (8.7-10.2)
eGFR If Africn Am 90 mL/min/1.73 (>59)
A/G Ratio 2.0 1 (1.1-2.5)
Globulin, Total 2.1 g/dL (1.5-4.5)
ALT (SGPT) 34 IU/L (0-44)
AST (SGOT) 34 IU/L (0-40)
eGFR If NonAfricn Am 78 mL/min/1.73 ( >59)
Alkaline Phosphatase, S 45 IU/L (25-150)
Bilirubin, Total 0.9 mg/dL (0.0-1.2)
Chloride, Serum 100 mmol/L (97-108)
Protein, Total, Serum 6.4 g/dL (6.0-8.5)
BUN/Creatinine Ratio 22 1 (8-19) Flagged as high

Cortisol
Cortisol 12.6 ug/dL (2.3-19.4)

Lipid Panel
Cholesterol, Total 128 mg/dL (100-199)
HDL Cholesterol 41 mg/dL (>39)
Triglycerides 55 mg/dL (0-149)
LDL Cholesterol Calc 76 mg/dL (0-99)
VLDL Cholesterol Cal 11 mg/dL (5-40)

Note: Argh.... forgot to ask for a Thyroid panel!! Opted not to have DHEA tested for since I already supplement with it regardless, and there's nothing more I can do (to my knowledge) to bring it up. Figured why bother paying for an additional test...

Anyway, feedback!?!

[Vettester]

GB, on the fly with my phone, so can't post that much. Your free test is just relative to your high serum score. Get your serum reduced to a normal range and your free test will follow suit.

I'll try to post more later ...

[gbrice75]

GB, on the fly with my phone, so can't post that much. Your free test is just relative to your high serum score. Get your serum reduced to a normal range and your free test will follow suit.

I'll try to post more later ...

Thx Vette... but is it bad to have it (free test) that high? I mean if not, I don't mind. What's odd is SHBG is relatively high too... I would have expected a lower free test based on the higher SHBG... but as you said, it's all relative to serum score.

[Vettester]

Thx Vette... but is it bad to have it (free test) that high? I mean if not, I don't mind. What's odd is SHBG is relatively high too... I would have expected a lower free test based on the higher SHBG... but as you said, it's all relative to serum score.

GB, it will be near impossible to sustain a healthy balance, or call it homeostasis for the long-haul when testosterone levels are this elevated (as noted by Jomamma). Your testosterone serum is calculated at slightly over 1,900ng/dl, which puts your free testosterone at 2.64%. Regardless of your total serum level, your free and bio-available testosterone is what your body is using, and it will usually be in the 2% to 3% range, which is ideal. This is contingent on SHBG, and weakly on albumin. IMO, I wouldn't put too much focus on your SHBG at this point, and would look more at reducing your serum to a more sustainable level. Again, if you're in the 2.6% range right now, you can easily figure out where that will put you relative to your serum (e.g., 1,000ng/dl = 26.0ng/dl).

Can you briefly tell me your protocol again, and when you took your last injection relative to your labs?

[gbrice75]

GB, it will be near impossible to sustain a healthy balance, or call it homeostasis for the long-haul when testosterone levels are this elevated (as noted by Jomamma). Your testosterone serum is calculated at slightly over 1,900ng/dl, which puts your free testosterone at 2.64%. Regardless of your total serum level, your free and bio-available testosterone is what your body is using, and it will usually be in the 2% to 3% range, which is ideal. This is contingent on SHBG, and weakly on albumin. IMO, I wouldn't put too much focus on your SHBG at this point, and would look more at reducing your serum to a more sustainable level. Again, if you're in the 2.6% range right now, you can easily figure out where that will put you relative to your serum (e.g., 1,000ng/dl = 26.0ng/dl).

Can you briefly tell me your protocol again, and when you took your last injection relative to your labs?

Understood Vette, and appreciate your attempt to explain to a mathematical retard (me) how to calculate. However, you state that 2-3% range is ideal for free test, and I'm at around 2.64% - so what exactly is the concern?

My protocol is currently 200mg cyp/week (100mg every 3.5 days). I know this is high and do plan to lower it... just wanted to get these labs over with first.

300iu HCG 3x weekly (Mon-Wed-Fri). AI on hand but not currently using it. This lab was done fasted, 8am Thursday morning - roughly 12 hours after my last injection. I've been told this isn't ideal, but that also confuses me as with cyp being a long/slow ester, I can't make the connection as to how an injection would affect blood being drawn only 12 hours later.

[Vettester]

Understood Vette, and appreciate your attempt to explain to a mathematical retard (me) how to calculate. However, you state that 2-3% range is ideal for free test, and I'm at around 2.64% - so what exactly is the concern?

My protocol is currently 200mg cyp/week (100mg every 3.5 days). I know this is high and do plan to lower it... just wanted to get these labs over with first.

300iu HCG 3x weekly (Mon-Wed-Fri). AI on hand but not currently using it. This lab was done fasted, 8am Thursday morning - roughly 12 hours after my last injection. I've been told this isn't ideal, but that also confuses me as with cyp being a long/slow ester, I can't make the connection as to how an injection would affect blood being drawn only 12 hours later.

GB, the concern is the amount of free testosterone that is unbound in the body. The percentage is constant, and in most men will be 2% to 3% of the total serum level. If it's higher/lower than that, then that's where the focus on SHBG will be directed. So, you could have a total serum of 300ng/dl, or it could be 3,000ng/dl, the amount in your case (right now) would be 2.64%. Again, it's not the % percentage % that is the concern, but the ACTUAL amount of testosterone in your system, which is calculated (TS * %) or (1900 x 2.64 = 50ng/dl of free test). The range is 7 - to -25ng, so you're double the max on the LabCorp reference range. Me personally, I think 18ng to 26ng/dl of free test is a long-term, sustainable range for TRT, but that's just my .02 on that. The ONLY way you will get in that 26ng/dl bracket for free testosterone is to reduce your total serum to the 1,000ng/dl or lower, which will require an adjustment to your exogenous protocol.

Hopefully this isn't confusing the matter.

[jomamma007]

shbg doesn't mean a thing if your free is at 50! Lower your dosage and get that serum down, your free will drop as vette said as well as estrogen which in turn should lower shbg ( add some vitamin d3 to lower it as well)... Having a free testosterone level twice the top of the range is not healthy long term

[gbrice75]

shbg doesn't mean a thing if your free is at 50! Lower your dosage and get that serum down, your free will drop as vette said as well as estrogen

Re: dropping estrogen - I'm pretty happy with where it's at currently - do you/any of you feel it's too high?

which in turn should lower shbg ( add some vitamin d3 to lower it as well)

Already supplementing 50,000iu D3/week. Gotta restock nettle root as it seemed to help while I was using it.

Having a free testosterone level twice the top of the range is not healthy long term

This is what my main concern was/is, but are you certain about this? I'm under the impression (and could easily be wrong) that total test being too high is the bigger concern vs. free test. Also, I would have expected to see higher E2 considering I'm not currently running any AI (but do have adex on hand).

[jomamma007]

Re: dropping estrogen - I'm pretty happy with where it's at currently - do you/any of you feel it's too high?



Already supplementing 50,000iu D3/week. Gotta restock nettle root as it seemed to help while I was using it.



This is what my main concern was/is, but are you certain about this? I'm under the impression (and could easily be wrong) that total test being too high is the bigger concern vs. free test. Also, I would have expected to see higher E2 considering I'm not currently running any AI (but do have adex on hand).

It's the opposite, total can be high without a problem, it's free that needs to be kept in check. We shall wait for Gdev and Kel now :0