Nolva throughout or not.........

[noddy1]

I am doing a 10 week cycle of test e/prop/deca should I run nolva the whole way through?

Pct is clomid week 12-15

What are the advantages and if there are, what are the disadvantages?

Thanks for ya help

[bignatt]

Yes you should it will help your lipidprofile and also it will help prevent gyno/bloat

[1badcamaro]

it will not prevent the gyno from deca, you need b6 or bromocryptine. AND, i dont run nolva all the way through, only if i start seeing signs

[AnabolicAlien]

don't use it all the way through unless you know you're prone to gyno. it hinders gains, costs money, and can be totally unnecessary. if you're not prone to gyno or not sure; i wouldn't take it unless your nipples start getting sensitive or other signs of gyno appear.

some will tell you otherwise but i think this is the best way to go about it.


A.A.

[noddy1]

Good to hear bros! I can now say that this is the advice that my doctor gave me as well He thinks week 4-8 can be good just to keep things under control if I feel the need!

Any other coments welcome..................

[AnabolicAlien]

wait a second... what advice did your doctor give you? just 4-8 weeks cycle? be specific.

i still don't think you're getting it.

A.A.

[noddy1]

No my cycle looks like this:

1-10 Test E E3.5D
1-10 Deca E3.5D
1-4 Prop EOD
4-8 Nolva if needed just level things out....

Make sence? Im not going to use it at all during if I dont feel as if there is a need!

Noddy

[Pork Chop]

don't use it all the way through unless you know you're prone to gyno. it hinders gains, costs money, and can be totally unnecessary. if you're not prone to gyno or not sure; i wouldn't take it unless your nipples start getting sensitive or other signs of gyno appear.

some will tell you otherwise but i think this is the best way to go about it.


A.A.

Agreed.
You'll hold a tad more water, BFD, your muscle will appear that much fuller.
Plus you'll make greater gains.
However you must use nolv's as part of pct.

[BajanBastard]

BULL****! nolva does not hinder gains! well if negitive lipids, high bp, water retension and gyno are "gains".

[Pork Chop]

BULL****! nolva does not hinder gains! well if negitive lipids, high bp, water retension and gyno are "gains".

really? then why do we naturally produce it?
estrogen is instrumental in converting test.
ever wonder why sweet nothing happens when stacking methyl test and anti'es?
refer to your biochemistry manual, they will describe it in further detail.

[Property of Steroid.com]

The possible mechanism by which nolva may hinder gains is that it may reduce IGF levels.

[psb]

BULL****! nolva does not hinder gains! well if negitive lipids, high bp, water retension and gyno are "gains".

i agree 100%.

the benefit to lipid profile alone is worth running it, its dirt cheap, nukes aromataze gyno, keeps you from bloating like a god**** land whale....

[psb]

really? then why do we naturally produce it?
estrogen is instrumental in converting test.
ever wonder why sweet nothing happens when stacking methyl test and anti'es?
refer to your biochemistry manual, they will describe it in further detail.

i thought nolvas action was as a SERM, it binds to certain receptors to prevent existing estrogen from accumulating (most importantly the nipples).

on the other hand an anti-e like arimidex kills estrogen aromatization almost entirely even at low doses.

hey im here to learn like everyone else, maybe i have my research confused?

[BajanBastard]

really? then why do we naturally produce it?
estrogen is instrumental in converting test.
ever wonder why sweet nothing happens when stacking methyl test and anti'es?
refer to your biochemistry manual, they will describe it in further detail.

LMAO!! so lets see here, should i take birth-control pills to grow? huh? When we take exogenous testosterone without an A.I some of it will aromatise into estrogen, yes a tiny bit is needed for lipids, sperm production, glocouse uptake etc but this excess amount will weaken tendons, promote fat gains, gynocomasticia, water retension, high BP, dick problems......yup those are "gains" i sure don't want. Estrogen and SHBG levels are also linked, lowering estrogen levels will lower SHBG levels which in turn RAISE anabolic hormone amounts in your blood = MORE LEAN MASS GAINS not fat and water, "estrogen is instrumental in converting test" sense fukkin' when?! Methyl-testosterone is a USELESS anabolic very little muscle mass gains can be seen using it......the "gains" you get are water and fat from the methly-estrogen the methly-testosterone aromatise to. looks like it's YOU who need to "refer to your biochemistry manual". How about some pics to see how "massive" estrogen make you.

[fartingdonkey]

i thought nolvas action was as a SERM, it binds to certain receptors to prevent existing estrogen from accumulating (most importantly the nipples).

on the other hand an anti-e like arimidex kills estrogen aromatization almost entirely even at low doses.

hey im here to learn like everyone else, maybe i have my research confused?

You're right. Nolv doesn't reduce estrogen, just reduces what estrogen the body can use by blocking the estrogen receptor. A true anti-e like arimidex or letrozole block estrogen formation by competing for the aromatase enzyme, thereby reducing (or **** near eliminating) any conversion.

[toolman]

i thought nolvas action was as a SERM, it binds to certain receptors to prevent existing estrogen from accumulating (most importantly the nipples).

on the other hand an anti-e like arimidex kills estrogen aromatization almost entirely even at low doses.

hey im here to learn like everyone else, maybe i have my research confused?

Nope, you are 100% correct PSB. Just do a search on Porkchops posts and youll see him giving alot of crappy advice like this. He has no idea what he is talking about.

Nolva all the way baby!!! Even if it does reduce IGF slightly, I would rather that than have high cholesteral, bloat and potential tits.

[BajanBastard]

Bump for debate with pork chop.

[Pork Chop]

LMAO!! so lets see here, should i take birth-control pills to grow? huh? When we take exogenous testosterone without an A.I some of it will aromatise into estrogen, yes a tiny bit is needed for lipids, sperm production, glocouse uptake etc but this excess amount will weaken tendons, promote fat gains, gynocomasticia, water retension, high BP, dick problems......yup those are "gains" i sure don't want. Estrogen and SHBG levels are also linked, lowering estrogen levels will lower SHBG levels which in turn RAISE anabolic hormone amounts in your blood = MORE LEAN MASS GAINS not fat and water, "estrogen is instrumental in converting test" sense fukkin' when?! Methyl-testosterone is a USELESS anabolic very little muscle mass gains can be seen using it......the "gains" you get are water and fat from the methly-estrogen the methly-testosterone aromatise to. looks like it's YOU who need to "refer to your biochemistry manual". How about some pics to see how "massive" estrogen make you.

My argument did NOT support excessive estrogen.
My argument was anti-e's hinder cycle gains.. and that reducing or eliminating estrogen in the body is counter productive compared to a balance in both estro and test.

I only have these pics, not recent nor clear.
Around 220lbs. Note the excessive bloat and gyno.
I think my arms in pic 1 is bigger than my head (all water though).

[BajanBastard]

Nope, you are 100% correct PSB. Just do a search on Porkchops posts and youll see him giving alot of crappy advice like this. He has no idea what he is talking about.

Nolva all the way baby!!! Even if it does reduce IGF slightly, I would rather that than have high cholesteral, bloat and potential tits.

Right on!!

[Pork Chop]

Bump for debate with pork chop.

I like a debate, if an argument makes sense, then i've learned something new!

[Pork Chop]

Nope, you are 100% correct PSB. Just do a search on Porkchops posts and youll see him giving alot of crappy advice like this. He has no idea what he is talking about.

Nolva all the way baby!!! Even if it does reduce IGF slightly, I would rather that than have high cholesteral, bloat and potential tits.

I've missed your scientific arguments.
Excellent work on cut and pasting what other people think.

[BajanBastard]

Estrogen is my mortal enemy! the less the better!! oh Pork chop? i'm not haten' on you bro i just strongly disaggree with ya on this issue.

[Pork Chop]

No prob man.
We can agree to disagree.

[BajanBastard]

K cool bro but toolman is gonna own your ass with some studies and common knowledge nolva is best run on cycle why close the barn door when the gyno horse done ran out? never made sense to me...think even if nolva did hinder gains hi BP, more bodyfat, bad cholestrol profile, weak tendons for 5 lbs muscle?

[bignatt]

im gonna have to side with B.I.G

[toolman]

[QUOTE=Pork Chop]My argument did NOT support excessive estrogen.
My argument was anti-e's hinder cycle gains.. and that reducing or eliminating estrogen in the body is counter productive compared to a balance in both estro and test.

I only have these pics, not recent nor clear.
Around 220lbs. Note the excessive bloat and gyno.
I think my arms in pic 1 is bigger than my head QUOTE]

PorkChop, I don't want to get in a flaming battle, but your reply to given facts is always "Give facts" Then when I do, like "test converts to estrogen" your reply is "You lose credibility because it doesn't" You were then corrected by everyone in the thread...it does. My point is, you have alot to learn and I will now explain some more "Facts" for you.

While called an anti-e, Nolva is actually synthetic estrogen and does not reduce estrogen in your body as you state above. It competes with binding sites against the estrogen created in your body by converting test to estrogen. THis is what happens on high dose cycles and why you get a higher risk of test conversion on high dose cycles.

If you read all the pro's on this subject, including the works of Mick Hart, who no one can challenge on experience or knowledge, there is no proof that Nolva hinders gains while plenty of studies that show it improves lipid profiles, prevents bloat and prevents gyno which is easier to prevent than treat. Saying nolva hinders gains is just gym BS which seems to contaminate alot of your knowledge.

I am not trying to be insulting bro and your pics show you workout and have some nice size (though you should photoshop your face for anonymity), but they also show alot of bloat that most of us would not want. I am not being critical, I just want you to clear your mind of the crap guys have been telling you and read up with an open mind. As Im near 40, cholesteral, BP, etc. is much more important now to me then it was when I was your age. Overall health is far more important to most of us on cycle. Gains come second, and that is if they even inhibited gains whcih they do not, you should run nolva on test cycles.

[Pork Chop]

[QUOTE=toolman]

My argument did NOT support excessive estrogen.
My argument was anti-e's hinder cycle gains.. and that reducing or eliminating estrogen in the body is counter productive compared to a balance in both estro and test.

I only have these pics, not recent nor clear.
Around 220lbs. Note the excessive bloat and gyno.
I think my arms in pic 1 is bigger than my head QUOTE]

PorkChop, I don't want to get in a flaming battle, but your reply to given facts is always "Give facts" Then when I do, like "test converts to estrogen" your reply is "You lose credibility because it doesn't" You were then corrected by everyone in the thread...it does. My point is, you have alot to learn and I will now explain some more "Facts" for you.

While called an anti-e, Nolva is actually synthetic estrogen and does not reduce estrogen in your body as you state above. It competes with binding sites against the estrogen created in your body by converting test to estrogen. THis is what happens on high dose cycles and why you get a higher risk of test conversion on high dose cycles.

If you read all the pro's on this subject, including the works of Mick Hart, who no one can challenge on experience or knowledge, there is no proof that Nolva hinders gains while plenty of studies that show it improves lipid profiles, prevents bloat and prevents gyno which is easier to prevent than treat. Saying nolva hinders gains is just gym BS which seems to contaminate alot of your knowledge.

I am not trying to be insulting bro and your pics show you workout and have some nice size (though you should photoshop your face for anonymity), but they also show alot of bloat that most of us would not want. I am not being critical, I just want you to clear your mind of the crap guys have been telling you and read up with an open mind. As Im near 40, cholesteral, BP, etc. is much more important now to me then it was when I was your age. Overall health is far more important to most of us on cycle. Gains come second, and that is if they even inhibited gains whcih they do not, you should run nolva on test cycles.

As of late, anytime someone says something that is different than what you know, you label the person "you're a moron and haven't a clue what you're talking about" then report threads to the moderators. Oh yeah.

This post is a good start.

As for my posts record, yeah i've asked interesting questions along the way - it's called learning. You seem to know everything there is to know about working out and juice, why i'm curious as to why this board even exists, perhaps we could create a "ask toolman" forum to have all your questions asnwered and you can flex your biomechanics and biochemistry phd.

I'm not looking to get my arse owned by anyone, i'm measuring my knowlodge to other members, and if it doesn't stack up, i don't call him a retard, i try to understand it and learn from it.

As for health, if it paramount to you, you'd never lay a finger on this stuff.

As for pros, if you know anyone who makes a living at this sport, you'll know they don't carry anti-e's in the medicine cabinet.

Good info here in this thread though.

[toolman]

As of late, anytime someone says something that is different than what you know, you label the person "you're a moron and haven't a clue what you're talking about" then report threads to the moderators. Oh yeah.

This post is a good start.

As for my posts record, yeah i've asked interesting questions along the way - it's called learning. You seem to know everything there is to know about working out and juice, why i'm curious as to why this board even exists, perhaps we could create a "ask toolman" forum to have all your questions asnwered and you can flex your biomechanics and biochemistry phd.

I'm not looking to get my arse owned by anyone, i'm measuring my knowlodge to other members, and if it doesn't stack up, i don't call him a retard, i try to understand it and learn from it.

As for health, if it paramount to you, you'd never lay a finger on this stuff.

As for pros, if you know anyone who makes a living at this sport, you'll know they don't carry anti-e's in the medicine cabinet.

Good info here in this thread though.

Everyone here is here to learn. But you make it hard for them when you give BS advice. And yes, when I read you giving advice to run more than a gram of test for a first cycle, I will call you a moron. I should keep the names in check but dangerous advice like this pisses me off. And your wrong, if run correctly, AAS do not pose a danger. However run the way you advise they do.

Also if you note in the multiple threads where we disagree, everyone posts after me that they agree with me and your advice is way off.

You didn't know Nolva is an estrogen and does not stop conversion. You didn't know Test converts to estrogen, you recommend ridiculous amounts of gear that even my high dose friends don't recommend, You say to run tren for an insane amount of time...the list goes on. You have alot to learn kid so read up and listen. Or keep posting your lack of knowledge and we will corect you on here. But remember what Sheakspear said " Tis better to remain silent and be thought the fool than to ope thy lips and remove all doubt."

[Property of Steroid.com]

Nolvadex is a Serm (Selective Estrogen Receptor Modulator); SERMs are unique because they bind to estrogen receptors and have tissue-specific effects that allow them to function as estrogen agonists in some tissues, while functioning as estrogen antagonists in others. Nolvadex has an estrogen antagonist effect on breast tissue, yet an estrogen-like effect on lipids. Thats why it binds to breast tissue and helps prevent gyno by "clogging the receptor" with a weaker estrogen, yet it also improves lipid profiles. It will not cause less gains due to (some kind of issue with) less overall estrogen in the body, I think.
(South Med J. 2003 May;96(5):469-76.)

Unfortunately, the GH/IGF-1 axis also plays a role in Breast Cancer (which is what Nolvadex is used for clinically).
(Trends Endocrinol Metab. 2003 Jan;14(1):28-34.)

Administration of Nolvadex to breast cancer patients has increased their survival rate, but unfortunately (for us)that's partly because of statistically significant (P = .002) reduction in the serum level of IGF-I. Yeah...Nolvadex may lower your serum IGF-1.
(J Natl Cancer Inst. 1990 Nov 7;82(21):1693-7.)

Nolvadex may also lower your GH levels by acting directly at the pituitary.
(Eur J Cancer. 1992;28A(4-5):788-93)

As we all know, IGF-1 and GH both play an important role in the accumulation of Muscle (fat-free mass) as well as strength.
(Ann Hum Biol. 1999 Jan-Feb;26(1):63-78)

If we want to speculate that Nolvadex may hinder your gains in Fat-Free mass or Strength, it would most likely be by it's ability to lower GH and IGF levels in the body.

[BajanBastard]

Thanks for the post hooker. Pork Chop look bro i'm not going to hop on the hate pork chop bandwangon but you need to learn ALOT more before you start posting advice.....i researched for like 1-1/2 or 2 years before posting advice and i'm still learning now. It's not the your posts are "different" they just way off base sometimes peace out bro.

[toolman]

Thanks for the post hooker. Pork Chop look bro i'm not going to hop on the hate pork chop bandwangon but you need to learn ALOT more before you start posting advice.....i researched for like 1-1/2 or 2 years before posting advice and i'm still learning now. It's not the your posts are "different" they just way off base sometimes peace out bro.

Well put big and I agree, I am not posting to express dislike or anything Porkchop. My apologies for the names coming from my frustration with some of your posts. I just can't sit by when the wrong advice is being given. I don't know everything at all, but I do know I won't comment on a thread unless I do know what I am talking about. I have made plenty of mistakes in my life, but I will always listen when I may be wrong. We learn nothing by talking, only listening.

[Property of Steroid.com]

Just to make sure I'm not misunderstood:

I'm not saying that Nolvadex hinders gains. I'm saying that IF it does, it's probably via an IGF/GH related mechanism.

I've run Nolvadex for an entire cycle, and the gains were similar to when I ran a cycle without it.

[pitbull27]

And also in the words of Mick Hart on this subjuect, If Nolvedex hindered gains at all it would be minimal at best...probably less than 10 percent.
Now, given the choice to take it and maybe hinder gains 10 percent(if at all) but receive the benefits vs. not take it and take the extra risk for 2 or 3 extra pounds...well...I think the answer is obvious!

To those who take Nolvadex thru cycle - I say, "Nice Gains!"
..........and for those who don't..........I say, "Nice TITS!!!!!"

[BajanBastard]

And also in the words of Mick Hart on this subjuect, If Nolvedex hindered gains at all it would be minimal at best...probably less than 10 percent.
Now, given the choice to take it and maybe hinder gains 10 percent(if at all) but receive the benefits vs. not take it and take the extra risk for 2 or 3 extra pounds...well...I think the answer is obvious!

To those who take Nolvadex thru cycle - I say, "Nice Gains!"
..........and for those who don't..........I say, "Nice TITS!!!!!"

[6plates]

10 mg's EOD would be sufficient if your running some dbol or some other highly androgenic drug and your not prone to gyno. anything more than that, and your supressing IGF/HGH levels, and also hindering gains. besides, i could care less about the bloat, that is the first thing to leave your body once your cycle is over, i would rather have the bloat and maxamize my gains thant to get rid of the bloat durring cycle and minimize my gains by going overboard on the anti-e's.

[tdawg]

if nolva stops me from looking like pork chop then im continuing it....lol

[BajanBastard]

if nolva stops me from looking like pork chop then im continuing it....lol

lol play nice!!

[Texas Ranger13]

if nolva stops me from looking like pork chop then im continuing it....lol

Man, that was COLD!!!

[GrimmReaper]

hahaahahahahaha that was funnnnnyyyy

[toolman]

if nolva stops me from looking like pork chop then im continuing it....lol

Lol...now, now.