Possible tren gyno...advice please

[Britguy]

hi fellas, have been off cycle since beginning of december and would like your advice, this was my cycle

wk1-8 Tren Ace 75mg EoD
wks1-10 Test Prop 100mg EoD
4 wks PCT 300/100/50 et etc
Ive never suffered from test related gyno and recently 8th February ive felt a little sorness in my right nipple and a small pea sized lump, taking into account this is nearly 2 months after ive finished my cycle, i reckon its tren related and know that Nolvadex won't cure it, what other remedies are there for tren related gyno. Im not a big fan of Nolva and keep if on hand during cycles but lately ive been very down, much worse than after other cycles, could this be due to a big buildup of estrogen which is being released cos my lifts have gone down and my lets say "performance" too. feedback greatly appreciated

[c5529]

I've been using letro at 1.25 mgs ED and have been very pleased with the results....

[Front Runner]

In order of effectiveness, I would say...

cabergoline (aka Dostinex)
bromocryptine
high dose b6
winny (although the jury may still be officially undecided depending who you talk to)

Letro won't work.

[Cycleon]

I would concur with the above - altho the best is probably RU486

[TheMudMan]

Are you lactating at all? If not then it could be estrogen related. If so letro would help shrink the mass and help keeping estrogen from being released into your body.

[Front Runner]

Forgot all about RU486!!

[GetPumped]

If you're not lactating then you should try nolva to see if that gets rid of it. On the other hand, if you are lactating I would recommend going to the doctor and let him give you a script for bromo.

[BajanBastard]

Do not use nolva if you are lactating! It can worsen the condition. Letro is one of the best choices, it will fight both estrogen and progesterone.

[Britguy]

i wanna say thanks for all the advice... no im not lactating, yet! just a small lump under the right pec/nipple

have used deca, test e, sustanon and never taken nolva and never had a problem, this time im not sure if its the tren or prop which has caused it, but obviously its one of the two, i feel like im havin a massive estrogen rebound, lack of erection and lethargy big time, i didn't take nolva throughout my cycle or for PCT. I have some nolva and loads of b6 left so should i try these? not really heard of the other stuff mentioned, can it be picked up a pharmacy or will i need a source? im from the uk where the doctors or m doctor in particular wouldn't have a clue

[TheMudMan]

Do not use nolva if you are lactating! It can worsen the condition. Letro is one of the best choices, it will fight both estrogen and progesterone.

Agreed this is why letro is good for both conditions.

[TheMudMan]

i wanna say thanks for all the advice... no im not lactating, yet! just a small lump under the right pec/nipple

have used deca, test e, sustanon and never taken nolva and never had a problem, this time im not sure if its the tren or prop which has caused it, but obviously its one of the two, i feel like im havin a massive estrogen rebound, lack of erection and lethargy big time, i didn't take nolva throughout my cycle or for PCT. I have some nolva and loads of b6 left so should i try these? not really heard of the other stuff mentioned, can it be picked up a pharmacy or will i need a source? im from the uk where the doctors or m doctor in particular wouldn't have a clue

Estrogen isn't the only hormone that will kill your sex drive......... but prolactin maybe the worse..............

IMO since you're not lactating I feel it is estrogen related and either using nolva or Letro, or even both will help........... but you may want to see a doctor and have tests done to determine if you have prolactin building up in your system. You could also add the B6 but like I said you should see a doctor to make sure you know you're using the right tools to help out your situation............ for now I would say run Letro and B6.

[Britguy]

thanks for the advice, i was wanting to keep my doc out of it but it luks like im gona have to go, should i tell him i did gear or wot? also is there another name for letro, i don't my source can get it

[BajanBastard]

Estrogen isn't the only hormone that will kill your sex drive......... but prolactin maybe the worse..............

IMO since you're not lactating I feel it is estrogen related and either using nolva or Letro, or even both will help........... but you may want to see a doctor and have tests done to determine if you have prolactin building up in your system. You could also add the B6 but like I said you should see a doctor to make sure you know you're using the right tools to help out your situation............ for now I would say run Letro and B6.

I would also like to add. Mammary glands can also be stimulated by estrogen, so if one is lactating it could be estrogen or progesterone induced. Letro decreases progesterone and estrogen receptors so it should be used to cover all the bases.

[Front Runner]

Am I missing something or what...how can letro help progesterone related gyno??

[unclemoney]

Are you lactating at all?

What is lactating??

[Front Runner]

What is lactating??

It's when your GF squeezes your tittty and liquid shoots across the room!

[RUI-Products]

letrozole to the rescue...the problem with prolactin and progesteron is fixed if you block estrogen. You can't have progestrone or prolactin without estrogen.

[Property of Steroid.com]

If tren caused you to lactate, then try taking some thyroid meds with your letro. AR-R T3 would be good...and here's why:

First I'll need to first explain thyrotropin-releasing hormone (TRH) and prolactin, and their relationship in the human body.

TRH stimulates the synthesis and release of thyrotropin (thyroid stimulating hormone) from the pituitary. Thyrotropin in turn stimulates the release of the thyroid hormones. As you know, the body likes to remain in homeostasis, so a negative feedback loop exists whereby low levels of Thyroid hormone stimulate the release of TRH...this regulates things in your body, etc...

Remember, TRH is also capable of stimulating the release of prolactin. In hypothyroid (subnormal levels of circulating thyroid hormone) patients there is often an elevation of TRH and prolactin due to diminished levels of T4. Galactorrhea (lactation) often results as a symptom of hypothyroidism.

Here's the part you are probably interested in:

Trenbolone acetate lowers thyroxine levels by 45%*, in animal studies. This would stimulate TRH, via the negative feedback loop I just went over...and that would in turn, increase prolactin levels in your body.

So if trenbolone acetate also lowers thyroxine levels by a similar amount in humans, the resulting rise in TRH should stimulate prolactin release. This could (would, actually) result in galactorrhea/gynecomastia.

*Res Vet Sci 1981 Jan;30(1):7-13
Growth hormone, insulin, prolactin and total thyroxine in the plasma of sheep implanted with the anabolic steroid trenbolone acetate alone or with oestradiol.

Now, combine that with the fact that that Tren stimulates the progesterone receptor 60% as well as progesterone itself*, and you have a recipe for gyno/galactorrhea.

(Deca is 1/3 as bad as tren, by the way, or 20% as bad as prog itself)

*Cancer Res 1978 Nov; 38(11 Pt 2):4186-98

Clearly, you'd want to take some thyroid hormone to up your Thyroid levels, which should lower prolactin levels....

Hence, taking extra thyroid meds while you are on tren (or have tren gyno) should reduce those elevated prolactin levels from the lowered thyroxine levels caused by the Tren.

[Front Runner]

Nice post Hooker.

And Lion, if you are correct then how do you account for all the poeple that have gotten gyno (the fatty tissue buildup type) while taking a boatload of ant-e's???? Myself included! And why are people asking for cabergoline and bromocryptine all over the place?? I'm not blasting you dude but I think you're off target. The presence of estrogen may amplify the effect but the lack of it will not necessarily prohibit it.

I started tren on Monday (100mg eod) and I am VERY susceptible to the fat buildup in the chest from it. I'm already on t3 and selegine (Deprenyl), which has also been speculated to counteract the side effects of tren. I'll see how these two work in real world application keep you all posted and if not then I'll have to 'hit my hip and make my wallet flip' for some cabergoline!

[wilthepill123]

Bump Hooker. I was getting frustrated reading through the posts and no one was really adressing the problem. Trenbolones dont aromatize the way most injectable AAS do, so it would have to be something else. Good post. Go with parabolan, im gonna push that stuff till the day i die.

[BajanBastard]

Bump Hooker. I was getting frustrated reading through the posts and no one was really adressing the problem. Trenbolones dont aromatize the way most injectable AAS do, so it would have to be something else. Good post. Go with parabolan, im gonna push that stuff till the day i die.

WTF?! Parabolan is trenbolone!

[wilthepill123]

I know that lol, i think its better overall in comparison to trenbolone acetate, sorry if i wasnt clear

[BajanBastard]

Parabolan has no added benefits over trenbolone enanthate yet is much more expensive. Stick with the enanthate.

[Property of Steroid.com]

Letro will help with Progesterone:



Eur J Obstet Gynecol Reprod Biol. 2002 Nov 15;105(2):161-5.


Neoadjuvant therapy of endometrial cancer with the aromatase inhibitor letrozole: endocrine and clinical effects.

Berstein L, Maximov S, Gershfeld E, Meshkova I, Gamajunova V, Tsyrlina E, Larionov A, Kovalevskij A, Vasilyev D.

Laboratory Oncoendocrinology, N.N. Petrov Research Institute of Oncology, St. Petersburg 197758, Russia. [email protected]

OBJECTIVE: To investigate the short-term hormonal and clinical effects of the aromatase inhibitor letrozole (Femara) in patients with endometrial cancer. MATERIALS AND METHODS: Ten previously untreated, post-menopausal patients (mean age 59 years) with endometrial cancer, predominantly stage I disease, received letrozole 2.5mg per day for 14 days before surgery. Clinical, sonographic, morphologic, cytologic, and hormonal-metabolic parameters (blood estradiol, follicle-stimulating hormone (FSH), luteinizing hormone (LH), glucose, and cholesterol by radioimmunoassay, enzyme immune assay, or enzyme-colorimetric methods; tumor progesterone receptors by ligand-binding assay; and aromatase activity by 3H-water release assay) were evaluated before and after treatment. RESULTS: Treatment was well-tolerated in all patients. In two patients, pain relief in the lower part of the belly and/or decrease in intensity of uterine discharge was reported. In the three cases, substantial decreases in endometrial M-echo (ultrasound) signal were noted; the mean value of this parameter after treatment was 31.1% lower than before treatment. Blood estradiol concentration decreased by an average of 37.8% after letrozole therapy, and tumor progesterone receptor levels and aromatase activity decreased by 34.4 and 17.5%, respectively. Treatment with letrozole did not influence surgery. CONCLUSIONS: These data show that short-term treatment with letrozole in the neoadjuvant setting resulted in some positive clinical changes. Longer-term and larger-scale trials of neoadjuvant letrozole in endometrial cancer are warranted.

Originally posted in this thread, by me, at www.bodybuilding4life.com :

http://www.bodybuilding4life.com/for...5572#post55572

[Front Runner]

[QUOTE=hooker]Letro will help with Progesterone:

Blood estradiol concentration decreased by an average of 37.8% after letrozole therapy, and tumor progesterone receptor levels and aromatase activity decreased by 34.4 and 17.5%, respectively

Well if you interpret this study a certain way then it would seem that letro may curtail progesterone just about as much as estrogen. It doesn't work that way in real world application though. I don't know why but it just does'nt.

We can beat our heads against the wall all day hoping that leto will work with fina and deca but when my tits start to get fat I'm going with cabergoline, bromocryptine, b6, and/or selegine...period!

[Smoothmold]

I would like to cear up a few misconceptions about progesterone and gynecomastia.

Progesterone cant initiate cellular reactions without sufficient amounts of estrogen. Therefore, blocking estrogen would indirectly block the action of prog. on the breast tissue.

Their is absolutely no steroid that aromatizes into progesterone. The reason for this is that progesteron does not have an aromatic A ring. So toss that myth out the window. Tren? Deca? Sorry but it just doesn't happen.

Now Tren and Deca bind pretty well to the PR. They are progestins in their own right without undergoing any structural changes, but their affinity is MUCH weaker than progesterone itself. Even more so when nandrolone is reduced by 5-alpha reductase into DHN. Their is a small chance of progestogenic activity that could aid in manifesting a mass in the mammry IF estrogen is present in supraphysiological amounts, without proper ratio to testosterone but I have never see a documented case of progestogenic gynecomastia. The reason for this is that the PR has two isoforms. The PR-A and PR-B. PR-B mediates stimulatory effects of progestins; PR-A which is bound with progestins or anti-progestins inhibits PR-B, and PR-A is dominant,. The response to progesterone is determined by the relative expression of the two isoforms.

There is a direct relationship between the PR isoforms and steroid concentrations an this direct relationship suggests high progesterone concentrations, but this will induce the expression of PR-A, which represses transcription of PR-B, which in turn supresses PR function and progestin effect
With initial administration of nandrolone or it's dirivitives, I could see an expression of PR-B but a rapid rise in PR-A will ultimately supress the function of the PR. IMO, you would need a high ratio of the two before concerns, and this is a bit more of a possiblity with the begining of administration. In this time of vulnerability, rest assured in aromatase inhibitors as progesterone is an E2 agonist so the utilization of an AI will help. I personally don't think the concern is warranted though

Their are 4 combinations of hormones that cause gyno- Estrogen, Progesterone, Prolactin, and IGF. Nandrolone is a weak progestin, which agonizes the PRL, it also raises IGF. Progesterone induced gyno is not really of a concern given binding affinity to the PR and the mechanism of the two isoforms. The production of prolactin is a deffinate risk. Not only can it be an inductor for gyno along side estrogen, IGF, and pogesterone; this chance is increased as prolactn lowers testosterone. So you need to make sure to take proper precautions to not only keep estrogen in check, but prolactin as well.

B6 is something that should be taken throughout the duration of a cycle, (tren,deca,drol) Just as a preventative measure...Dostinex would be the drug of choice if problems occur and b6 can't handle...