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Thread: Immigration yes, Colonization No

  1. #1
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    Immigration yes, Colonization No

    Alan Keyes

    When people come from abroad to make a new home for themselves, and they are committed to the goal of becoming part of our nation – that's immigration. When they come to exploit economic opportunities while proudly flaunting their determination to continue in their allegiance to a foreign flag – that's colonization.

    During the Los Angeles march, large numbers of foreigners marched proudly under the flag of a foreign country, to demand the right to live in the United States. They claim that the issue is immigration. But by their own actions, they reveal what is in fact a determined effort to force Americans to accept large foreign colonies in our midst, and to pay handsomely for the privilege of doing so. We have both the right and the moral obligation to say no.

    Obviously our political leaders do not understand the real nature of the issue. In his radio address, President Bush told us that his guest-worker program is not intended to lead to citizenship for the illegal aliens in our midst. He actually seems to believe this is a point in its favor. At the same time, he and others like him want us to believe that the latest so-called immigration bill is somehow in line with the great tradition of immigration that literally created the American people. This is a lie.

    In the past, the large majority of people coming to America from abroad came here to become part of the nation. They brought habits, customs and creeds that enriched the panoply of our emerging national identity, but they also accepted the challenge of becoming an integral part of it. Citizenship is the proper fruit of that kind of immigration, and that's what makes it good for America.

    Accepting the presence of large numbers of people who maintain their allegiance to a foreign flag, a foreign language and a foreign culture – and who mean to claim many of the benefits but none of the responsibilities of citizenship – is a departure from the tradition that built this nation, and the culmination of inept policies that will end in its dissolution.

    Given the destructive consequence of allowing such colonization, it is especially dismaying to see supposed moral leaders demanding that we accept it. I must assume that Cardinal Mahoney means well when he encourages people to violate laws intended to enforce our immigration policies. I'm sure he honestly believes that it is morally right to help individuals in need regardless of their immigration status.

    But as a Catholic leader, I must question his willingness to abandon the wisdom of Catholic moral tradition, which has always cautioned against the impetuous inclination to do good for particular individuals while bringing on greater evils for society as whole. This wisdom has been at the heart of the reasoning derived from the just war doctrine that requires, for example, opposing zealots who justify killing abortion doctors on the plea that they are saving the life of an innocent child. Their particular act saves some innocents, but at the great risk of civil violence and war that will plunge the whole society into destructive evils that endanger all its members.

    True moral responsibility requires that we compare the good we may do by violating the immigration laws with the harm that will result from destroying our capacity to enforce immigration rules and regulations. Will the absence of immigration controls (in effect, open borders) lead to greater evils than the effort to enforce them?

    As we ponder the response we should consider the spectacle of the major cities in many countries around the world, where the pressure of uncontrolled migration from rural to urban areas has led to excessive burdens on their infrastructure, and the development of enormous slums riddled with disease and poverty. The United States is, as it were, the urban capital of the world. Uncontrolled migration from the global hinterland will result in pressures upon our economic, social and political infrastructure that will degrade both our material well being and the always fragile fabric of our national identity.

    The result will be greater poverty, greater social friction and unrest, and sharper, more irreconcilable differences in our political life. The latter will be especially true if we have permitted large communities of non-citizen workers to become a permanent feature of our national life. This would be a population of people who pay taxes and yet, as non-citizens, have no say in the political process that determines their ultimate disposition. "No taxation without representation" was the early battle-cry of political justice in America, and it still indicates the truth that representative government is part of the natural birthright of all human beings. It makes no sense to adopt policies that encourage the permanent existence of a large, disenfranchised population in our midst.

    All this suggests that immigration control is prudent and necessary for the common good of the country. Moral reasoning that ignores the common good is in fact not moral at all. Cardinal Mahoney and other Catholic leaders should revisit and ponder this principle of the Catholic moral tradition. If immigration control serves the common good, then effective immigration laws are appropriate and morally obligatory.

    Thomas Aquinas rightly points out that law without enforcement is no law at all. Therefore, effective immigration law means effective enforcement of the laws. When Cardinal Mahoney encourages citizens to ignore the laws, and thus undermine their effectiveness, he encourages them to take particular actions that, by contributing to the overall collapse of the economic, social and political infrastructure, will result in far greater misery and suffering than they purport to alleviate.

    This is irresponsible, immoral and contrary to the rational requirements of Christian conscience. Christ exemplifies the truth that, for the sake of the whole, even innocent individuals ought to be willing to sacrifice themselves. Encouraging illegal immigrants to seek their own advantage by a route that undermines the common good thus represents a corruption of their respect for the principle that ought to govern their Christian consciences.

    It is both unfair and dishonest to react to this analysis as if it represents some willingness to slam the door of opportunity in the face of the hopes and aspirations of less fortunate people around the world. On the contrary, the effort to develop and enforce responsible immigration policies aims to assure that the invitation to hope is not extended in ways that destroy its fulfillment. It is also intended to make sure that our policies do not aid and abet the tendency of some foreign elites to enrich themselves at the expense of their people, and then escape accountability for their viciousness by pushing the victims across the border into the United States. Is it morally right to facilitate the corruption and greed of these self-serving exploiters?

    I believe that immigration in the true sense is good for America. This would mean policies aimed at assuring that by and large the people who come to America come with the intention of becoming full and responsible citizens of the republic. It also means discouraging any who think they have the right to establish foreign enclaves in our midst, in order to gain economic advantages for themselves without fully committing to help us build this free society.

    Immigration, yes; colonization, no. The first prerequisite of any immigration policy, however, is to regain full control of the borders of the United States. Currently proposed legislation falls far short of what is needed to achieve this goal. Until and unless our political leaders put in place the tools and forces needed to achieve this control, responsible and moral Americans ought to oppose any measures that would signal our acceptance of the de facto colonization of our country.

    President Bush's guest-worker proposal is such a measure. It may serve short-sighted business interests intent on cheapening the cost of labor in our economy; it may serve the corrupt interest of Mexican and other foreign elites seeking to relieve the pressure created by their own policies of greedy exploitation. But it does not serve the common good. Such service demands policies that give preference in immigration not just to workers seeking jobs and money, but to those who seek liberty and the responsibilities of citizenship.
    http://worldnetdaily.com/news/articl...TICLE_ID=49580

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    Wow, old post but man it rings true.

    I have never seen such a blatant display of unwarranted entitlement in my life than the parade that happened here in Chicago a couple months back.

    This article rings true. i welcome one and all to come to America and chase their dream, but I'll be damned if you're going to demand the right to stay here yet blow off any attempt to integrate.

    Go f*ck yourselves...

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    Darn, I thought Books was back......

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    Ah Alan Keys....... damn shame he got beat by liberal poster child barack osama. Ah well the seat will be up for grabs again in a few years.

  5. #5
    Alan is overexaggerating immigration (legal and illegal) into colonialism. I don't see any viceroy's running the US government and the fact that the US is the strongest nation in world should prove that this isn't a under colonial rule. Deal with the problem, don't overhype it into something it's not.

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    Quote Originally Posted by kdawg21
    Ah Alan Keys....... damn shame he got beat by liberal poster child barack osama. Ah well the seat will be up for grabs again in a few years.
    Ya, well, one minor reason was that Keys didn't even live in Illinois. The Republicans couldn't find anyone they liked to run against the Democrats, so they went to New York and imported one. And of course, when the voters discovered that Keys had just moved into town and didn't know anything about the issues facing Illinois, they voted for the other guy who did.

    And yes, I know that Hillary Clinton did pretty much the same thing in New York, but I didn't think too much of that, either. Since I don't live there, I didn't have much say in the matter . . .

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    Barack

    Quote Originally Posted by kdawg21
    Ah Alan Keys....... damn shame he got beat by liberal poster child barack osama. Ah well the seat will be up for grabs again in a few years.
    Barack (sp?) really has been rather quiet since he has been in office. They were making him out to be the poster boy for the "New" Democratic party.....

    I really liked the Keyes article, thanks.

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    Keyes is the shit, his view of what needs to be done to save America is right on. Unfortunately the dumb asses are the majority now and he is too smart for them to understand. While he is far more conservative than I, he does speak the truth about America's troubles, not just on immigration/invasion, but the overall moral decline.

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    Quote Originally Posted by gmmvp42
    Keyes is the shit, his view of what needs to be done to save America is right on. Unfortunately the dumb asses are the majority now and he is too smart for them to understand. While he is far more conservative than I, he does speak the truth about America's troubles, not just on immigration/invasion, but the overall moral decline.
    Huh? You sound just like a klansman, you know that? White supremacists and separatists say "the majority are stupid", "their views are too smart for the average person to understand" and "the US is suffering from severe moral issues." All of which are untrue.

    http://www.ety.com/HRP/race/americasdecay.htm

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    Alan Keyes is Black moron

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    Quote Originally Posted by gmmvp42
    Alan Keyes is Black moron
    I know and that doesn't make what you said any less idiotic. What moral decline?

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    I have no problem with immigrants as long as:

    1- DO IT LEGALLY!

    I know its hard and the wait is too long considering people just jump the border (shoot them! its tresspassing!) the gov should increase security and get harsh with them and people who do it legally should get in faster as they respect us enough to not ass rape us by the following:

    The cost of immigration to the American taxpayer in 1997 was a NET (after subtracting taxes immigrants pay) $70 BILLION a year, [Professor Donald Huddle, Rice University].

    2-You want to listen to Latin, Arabic, german, worship satan, mohamed, jesus, noone, etc.... I dont care....as long as you pledge alligance to the flag, you live in America you are American and you may have your own likes and dislikes but no fvcking hypocrites or traitors who live here yet bash the country and wish it shit.

    3- DO not develop a fvcking attitude problem thinking you're better or whatever and using phrases like dumb American, you're only insulting yourself

    4- Optional: If you want to get better places and communicate and make life easier for us and for you, learn some english

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    Quote Originally Posted by scriptfactory
    I know and that doesn't make what you said any less idiotic. What moral decline?


    Anyone can be a racist, religionist, etc......

    It doesnt matter what they color they are or which side theyre on.

    Racism comes in all colors, beliefs, etc....

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    Quote Originally Posted by scriptfactory
    I know and that doesn't make what you said any less idiotic. What moral decline?

    You can't be serious here....

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    Quote Originally Posted by scriptfactory
    Huh? You sound just like a klansman, you know that? White supremacists and separatists say "the majority are stupid", "their views are too smart for the average person to understand" and "the US is suffering from severe moral issues." All of which are untrue.

    http://www.ety.com/HRP/race/americasdecay.htm

    And what the world are you talking about here? What could this possibly have to do with race? It always comes to this with you.

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    Quote Originally Posted by alphaman
    You can't be serious here....
    People have been doing the same thing they are doing right now (and worse) for thousands of years. I say again, what moral decline?

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    Quote Originally Posted by alphaman
    And what the world are you talking about here? What could this possibly have to do with race? It always comes to this with you.
    Everyone knows white supremacists make stupid arguments. I'm saying his were just as dumb, not that he was racist. Of course he isn't a racist, he was praising a black guy (Alan Keyes) for his views. People piss me off when they talk about a morality as if it's an absolute, which it isn't.
    Last edited by scriptfactory; 07-15-2006 at 08:34 AM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by scriptfactory
    People piss me off when they talk about a morality as if it's an absolute, which it isn't.
    Here we go again.....

    It makes absolutely no sense for you to be a Christ follower and make statements such as this!

    --------------------------------------------------------------------------

    Do you think kids are being exposed to the promotion of premarital sex more than they were 50 years ago?

    Do you think they are being exposed to more gratuitous violence than before?

    Do you think parents are not as active in keeping their children separated from these things?

    Do you think that there has been a progressive decline in the importance of family, and quality time spent with children?

    The list goes on and on and on.....

    And further, if you believe what the Bible says-- you'll agree that there will be a continuous moral decline all the way until the return of Christ.

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    I thought it was a great article. The fact that we are embracing people who want to enjoy all of the privledges of this country, yet conduct protests of their mistreatment while waving the flag of the country they left to come here is absolute garbage. PC bullcrap has really done a number on this place.

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    Do you think kids are being exposed to the promotion of premarital sex more than they were 50 years ago?
    The 60's were known as the time of sexual revolution. Hello?! In ancient history prostitution and bigamy was viewed as entirely normal practices.

    Quote Originally Posted by alphaman
    Do you think they are being exposed to more gratuitous violence than before?
    In the past we were killing people more often. Throughout history humans have killed and beat the crap out other people, often without remorse. They didn't watch it on TV, they did it in real life.

    Quote Originally Posted by alphaman
    Do you think parents are not as active in keeping their children separated from these things?
    These things were a way of life in the past. I believe we are at a moral climax, truthfully, even if religion itself is in a slump.

    Quote Originally Posted by alphaman
    Do you think that there has been a progressive decline in the importance of family, and quality time spent with children?
    What?! Just because you watched Leave it to Beaver on TV doesn't mean that's how life always was, or even how it should be.

    Quote Originally Posted by alphaman
    The list goes on and on and on.....

    And further, if you believe what the Bible says-- you'll agree that there will be a continuous moral decline all the way until the return of Christ.
    On a worldwide scale (i.e. in the middle east) people are getting worse, but in the US morality is NOT on a decline, brother.

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    Quote Originally Posted by scriptfactory
    The 60's were known as the time of sexual revolution. Hello?! In ancient history prostitution and bigamy was viewed as entirely normal practices.
    So it's the same now as it was in the 70's? Ummm no. I didn't have any games when I was in elementary school like giving a girl a bracelet of a certain color to get a blow job, but they have them now! I'm only 26!

    So, you think premarital sex isn't immoral? Jesus did. And whether you think he's greater than the Father or not, you can't deny that the Bible says he is ABSOLUTE. So if he's truly the Lord of your life, you would believe that his morals are absolute.

    In the past we were killing people more often. Throughout history humans have killed and beat the crap out other people, often without remorse. They didn't watch it on TV, they did it in real life.
    Forgive me if I'm wrong, but this argument is about Moral decline in America. Obviously violent things have occurred in the past in the US (unfortunately,it's a harsh reality in this world), but it wasn't something that was produced by corporations for the enjoyment of children-- giving the impression that it's 'cool'.

    These things were a way of life in the past. I believe we are at a moral climax, truthfully, even if religion itself is in a slump.
    But I thought you said there were no absolute morals.....

    What?! Just because you watched Leave it to Beaver on TV doesn't mean that's how life always was, or even how it should be.
    Again-- this is argument about moral decline in the US-- and it's fortunate that you use such an example as Beaver, because it is a perfect example of a moral decline in the US.

    On a worldwide scale (i.e. in the middle east) people are getting worse, but in the US morality is NOT on a decline, brother.
    I thought you lived in Germany.


    I often think of you in my study. I find it harder and harder to understand how you came to have the views you do. I often wonder of you've just come up with this dogmatic system of beliefs by taking bits and pieces of what you learned growing up, and listened to someone who was totally wrong, and believed them-- perhaps a Jehovah's Witness..... I can't help but think that you haven't spent much time studying the Bible.

    I don't mean to be beating you over the head here, but I really have thought about you a lot the past few months. Many times I've wanted to post up a thread about it, but you seemed to lose interest at some point...
    Last edited by alphaman; 07-15-2006 at 11:47 AM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by alphaman
    So it's the same now as it was in the 70's? Ummm no. I didn't have any games when I was in elementary school like giving a girl a bracelet of a certain color to get a blow job, but they have them now! I'm only 26!
    I did. There were games where kids would get together behind our apartment complex and look at porno magazines and then mimic the magazines. I think everything is being brought out into the spotlight more now, but humans were always perverts...

    Quote Originally Posted by alphaman
    So, you think premarital sex isn't immoral? Jesus did. And whether you think he's greater than the Father or not, you can't deny that the Bible says he is ABSOLUTE. So if he's truly the Lord of your life, you would believe that his morals are absolute.
    It's funny how Jesus never mentioned it. If it was so important don't you think he would have spoken about it?..

    Quote Originally Posted by alphaman
    Forgive me if I'm wrong, but this argument is about Moral decline in America. Obviously violent things have occurred in the past in the US (unfortunately,it's a harsh reality in this world), but it wasn't something that was produced by corporations for the enjoyment of children-- giving the impression that it's 'cool'.
    So oppressing an entire race of people through force isn't immoral? Well, it does say that slavery is allowed under certain circumstances in the Bible so...

    Quote Originally Posted by alphaman
    But I thought you said there were no absolute morals...
    Absolute and in unconditional. Remember, we are only saved by the grace of God, not by our actions...

    Quote Originally Posted by alphaman
    Again-- this is argument about moral decline in the US-- and it's fortunate that you use such an example as Beaver, because it is a perfect example of a moral decline in the US.
    Did you even study history? Do you think that when this country was created people even HAD time to spend with their families? The "9 to 5" job didn't always exist...

    Quote Originally Posted by alphaman
    I thought you lived in Germany.
    I'm an American, a US citizen even.

    Quote Originally Posted by alphaman
    I often think of you in my study. I find it harder and harder to understand how you came to have the views you do. I often wonder of you've just come up with this dogmatic system of beliefs by taking bits and pieces of what you learned growing up. I can't help but think that you haven't spent much time studying the Bible.
    I've come up with my views through a long, hard, observative look at humans, humanity, religion and God. If you take everything that is written in the Bible literally you have missed the point.

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    Quote Originally Posted by scriptfactory
    I did. There were games where kids would get together behind our apartment complex and look at porno magazines and then mimic the magazines. I think everything is being brought out into the spotlight more now, but humans were always perverts...
    You and I are not that old. And while there were incidents such as that 20 yrs ago, but there wasn't a bracelet game that you could ask any ten year old about, and they would know-- 30 years ago, it was spin the bottle for a kiss, and now it's "here- now that I've given you this braclet, you've got to do whatever I say!". And look how little girls are dressing nowadays-- it wasn't like that 20 yrs. ago.

    It's funny how Jesus never mentioned it. If it was so important don't you think he would have spoken about it?..
    Oh yeah?

    Mark 7:20-22
    20He went on: "What comes out of a man is what makes him 'unclean.' 21For from within, out of men's hearts, come evil thoughts, sexual immorality, theft, murder, adultery, 22greed, malice, deceit, lewdness, envy, slander, arrogance and folly.

    John 4:16-17
    16He told her, "Go, call your husband and come back."
    17"I have no husband," she replied.
    Jesus said to her, "You are right when you say you have no husband. 18The fact is, you have had five husbands, and the man you now have is not your husband. What you have just said is quite true."


    The authors of Hebrews said:

    Hebrews 13:4
    4Marriage should be honored by all, and the marriage bed kept pure, for God will judge the adulterer and all the sexually immoral.


    Or how about we go back to the beginning, in which God created everything with his Word..... Jesus is the Word.

    Genesis 2:24
    24 For this reason a man will leave his father and mother and be united to his wife, and they will become one flesh.


    This is speaking of monogamy-- man and woman become one flesh-- not as many as you want.


    So oppressing an entire race of people through force isn't immoral? Well, it does say that slavery is allowed under certain circumstances in the Bible so...
    The Bible records many things that God didn't approve of. Just because the record of an occurrence is there, doesn't mean that it was in the will of God.

    Absolute and in unconditional. Remember, we are only saved by the grace of God, not by our actions...
    So God doesn't care about how we live our lives???? I may be misunderstanding what you're trying to communicate here, but I will address this further in response to your last statement in the post.

    Did you even study history? Do you think that when this country was created people even HAD time to spend with their families? The "9 to 5" job didn't always exist...
    When this country was created, I would say that most spent much more time with their families. Whether they were working or not. For you to argue that people put more of an importance on family now, or even a the equivalent of what is was is ridiculous. Do you have any kids? I think we've gone through this before, but I would venture to to guess that you don't. If you did, you would be singing a different tune.

    I'm an American, a US citizen even.
    The fact that you say this makes me think you are just arguing for the sake of argument-- that you're all about being right, rather than seeking the truth.

    You LIVE in Germany. You don't spend your days here whether you have citizenship papers or not.

    If you take everything that is written in the Bible literally you have missed the point.
    This is the main problem with the so-called community of Christians today. While it's not always as blatant as you've just stated-- it's there. Jesus is love, but he is also truth. There has to be a balance. You can't just take the parts of him that you like, throw away the rest, and still think that you are in his will. In your post about grace that was in response to my post stating that you don't believe in absolute morals-- It seems that you're saying, "whatever moral system you want to live by-- that's fine just as long that you acknowledge God's grace,".... No, it doesn't work that way. If you Jesus is working in your life, you will be transformed-- and you will be convicted of your sin. You will have a natural urging to live within GOD'S morals, not your own. This is evidentiary of your salvation-- it's proof positive that he lives in your heart and that you are no longer "of the world".

    James 2:14-17

    Faith Without Works Is Dead

    14 What does it profit, my brethren, if someone says he has faith but does not have works? Can faith save him? 15 If a brother or sister is naked and destitute of daily food, 16 and one of you says to them, “Depart in peace, be warmed and filled,” but you do not give them the things which are needed for the body, what does it profit? 17 Thus also faith by itself, if it does not have works, is dead.
    .
    Last edited by alphaman; 07-17-2006 at 08:45 PM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by alphaman
    You and I are not that old. And while there were incidents such as that 20 yrs ago, but there wasn't a bracelet game that you could ask any ten year old about, and they would know-- 30 years ago, it was spin the bottle for a kiss, and now it's "here- now that I've given you this braclet, you've got to suck me off!". And look how little girls are dressing nowadays-- it wasn't like that 20 yrs. ago.
    True. However throughout history women have dressed even sexier. You want to talk about just the US but the Bible wasn't written when the US was around...

    Quote Originally Posted by alphaman
    Oh yeah?

    Mark 7:20-22
    20He went on: "What comes out of a man is what makes him 'unclean.' 21For from within, out of men's hearts, come evil thoughts, sexual immorality, theft, murder, adultery, 22greed, malice, deceit, lewdness, envy, slander, arrogance and folly.

    Doesn't say anything about pre-marital sex. If two people love each other I don't think sex is immoral. In my Bible that verse says, "fornication" not "sexual immorality" which often means forsaking God or following false gods.

    Quote Originally Posted by alphaman
    John 4:16-17
    16He told her, "Go, call your husband and come back."
    17"I have no husband," she replied.
    Jesus said to her, "You are right when you say you have no husband. 18The fact is, you have had five husbands, and the man you now have is not your husband. What you have just said is quite true."
    And Jesus didn't even comdemn her for her adultery...

    Quote Originally Posted by alphaman
    The authors of Hebrews said:

    Hebrews 13:4
    4Marriage should be honored by all, and the marriage bed kept pure, for God will judge the adulterer and all the sexually immoral.


    Or how about we go back to the beginning, in which God created everything with his Word..... Jesus is the Word.

    Genesis 2:24
    24 For this reason a man will leave his father and mother and be united to his wife, and they will become one flesh.


    This is speaking of monogamy man and woman become one flesh-- not as many as you want.
    Keep trying. I'm not saying that pre-marital sex is good, I'm saying it wasn't a bad enough sin to rank up there with adultery, unlike what the Christian church would like you to believe.

    Quote Originally Posted by alphaman
    The Bible records many things that God didn't approve of. Just because the record of an occurrence is there, doesn't mean that it's in the will of God.
    And people do a lot of things God doesn't approve of. Read Exodus 20-21...

    Quote Originally Posted by alphaman
    When this country was created, I would say that most spent much more time with their families. Whether they were working or not. For you to argue that people put more of an importance on family now, or even a the equivalent of what is was is ridiculous. Do you have any kids? I think we've gone through this before, but I would venture to to guess that you don't. If you did, you would be singing a different tune.
    I have one son and another that is expected to arrive in a couple of days (he's 10 days past due.) The US is a country that was founded in sin by sinners (many of them Christians) and has truly grown into a great and free nation (more free than a lot of nations in the world.) Don't be fooled into thinking that things were better in the US in the past...

    Quote Originally Posted by alphaman
    The fact that you say this makes me think you are just arguing for the sake of argument-- that you're all about being right.

    You LIVE in Germany. You don't spend your days here whether you have citizenship papers or not.
    How long do you think I've lived here?! I was raised and lived for over 20 years in the US! I don't have my "citizenship papers." I have my social security card and my Texas drivers license and a LEGAL RESIDENCE in the US. I spend as many days as possible in the US.

    Quote Originally Posted by alphaman
    This is the main problem with the so-called community of Christians today. While it's not always as blatant as you've just stated-- it's there. Jesus is love, but he is also truth. There has to be a balance. You can't just take the parts of him that you like, throw away the rest, and still think that you are in his will. In your post about grace that was in response to my post stating that you don't believe in absolute morals-- It seems that you're saying, "whatever moral system you want to live by-- that's fine just as long that you acknowledge God's grace,".... No, it doesn't work that way. If you Jesus is working in your life, you will be transformed-- and you will be convicted of your sin. You will have a natural urging to live within GOD'S morals, not your own. This is evidentiary of your salvation-- it's proof positive that he lives in your heart and that you are no longer "of the world".
    It doesn't matter what belief system you have, if you are a good person and live according to God's will you can be saved by the grace of God. I have to believe this. I have to believe that my God will NOT let people suffer in hell simply because they don't live under the mantle this messed up religion called "Christianity." This mutated invention that has been perverted by men, has been changed over the course of hundreds of years into a machine that is used for profit and not salvation. This polytheistic religion where the leaders twist God's words around so that it serves them best. What kind of person with the ability to think logically would want to follow something like this?!

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    Quote Originally Posted by scriptfactory
    True. However throughout history women have dressed even sexier. You want to talk about just the US but the Bible wasn't written when the US was around...


    Doesn't say anything about pre-marital sex. If two people love each other I don't think sex is immoral. In my Bible that verse says, "fornication" not "sexual immorality" which often means forsaking God or following false gods.


    And Jesus didn't even comdemn her for her adultery...


    Keep trying. I'm not saying that pre-marital sex is good, I'm saying it wasn't a bad enough sin to rank up there with adultery, unlike what the Christian church would like you to believe.


    And people do a lot of things God doesn't approve of. Read Exodus 20-21...


    I have one son and another that is expected to arrive in a couple of days (he's 10 days past due.) The US is a country that was founded in sin by sinners (many of them Christians) and has truly grown into a great and free nation (more free than a lot of nations in the world.) Don't be fooled into thinking that things were better in the US in the past...


    How long do you think I've lived here?! I was raised and lived for over 20 years in the US! I don't have my "citizenship papers." I have my social security card and my Texas drivers license and a LEGAL RESIDENCE in the US. I spend as many days as possible in the US.


    It doesn't matter what belief system you have, if you are a good person and live according to God's will you can be saved by the grace of God. I have to believe this. I have to believe that my God will NOT let people suffer in hell simply because they don't live under the mantle this messed up religion called "Christianity." This mutated invention that has been perverted by men, has been changed over the course of hundreds of years into a machine that is used for profit and

    not salvation. This polytheistic religion where the leaders twist God's words around so that it serves them best. What kind of person with the ability to think logically would want to follow something like this?!



    everybody thinks they know something.........I say you won't know til you die.......and if that's all there is........you still won't know........just say.......


    "I don't really know"..........

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    Quote Originally Posted by scriptfactory
    It doesn't matter what belief system you have, if you are a good person and live according to God's will you can be saved by the grace of God. I have to believe this. I have to believe that my God will NOT let people suffer in hell simply because they don't live under the mantle this messed up religion called "Christianity." This mutated invention that has been perverted by men, has been changed over the course of hundreds of years into a machine that is used for profit and not salvation. This polytheistic religion where the leaders twist God's words around so that it serves them best. What kind of person with the ability to think logically would want to follow something like this?!

    No, it is you who twists God's words around so they mean whatever you want them to mean. You can't just choose parts that you like, proof-text on some other verses-- and throw the rest out if you don't like it. It all goes together-- you have to take every verse in context with what the rest of it says, it doesn't contradict itself. You can blame it on men all you want, but the fact is that God gave us his word in the form of the Bible.

    Sorry if it doesn't make you feel all warm and fuzzy, but every man has the choice to sin or not-- sin at it's core is man deciding that he can do everything on his own. People don't want to accept Jesus because they want the credit, they want to be in control. If a man wants to choose to ignore God, to be separate from him in his life here on earth-- after God constantly knocking on his door, and continually having his arms outstretched to this man-- then in death God has no choice but to give him what he's been asking for all his life. And that's separation from God. God didn't want it, that's man's choice.

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    script-

    congrats on the child!

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    Quote Originally Posted by scriptfactory
    True. However throughout history women have dressed even sexier. You want to talk about just the US but the Bible wasn't written when the US was around...
    1 Timothy 2:9
    9I also want women to dress modestly, with decency and propriety, not with braided hair or gold or pearls or expensive clothes, 10but with good deeds, appropriate for women who profess to worship God.

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    Quote Originally Posted by scriptfactory
    And Jesus didn't even comdemn her for her adultery...


    Jesus didn't come to condemn sinners, he came to save them. But he did rebuke her.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Badgerman
    everybody thinks they know something.........I say you won't know til you die.......and if that's all there is........you still won't know........just say.......


    "I don't really know"..........

    I know.

    1 John 5:20
    20We know also that the Son of God has come and has given us understanding, so that we may know him who is true. And we are in him who is true—even in his Son Jesus Christ. He is the true God and eternal life.

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    Quote Originally Posted by alphaman
    No, it is you who twists God's words around so they mean whatever you want them to mean. You can't just choose parts that you like, proof-text on some other verses-- and throw the rest out if you don't like it. It all goes together-- you have to take every verse in context with what the rest of it says, it doesn't contradict itself. You can blame it on men all you want, but the fact is that God gave us his word in the form of the Bible.

    Sorry if it doesn't make you feel all warm and fuzzy, but every man has the choice to sin or not-- sin at it's core is man deciding that he can do everything on his own. People don't want to accept Jesus because they want the credit, they want to be in control. If a man wants to choose to ignore God, to be separate from him in his life here on earth-- after God constantly knocking on his door, and continually having his arms outstretched to this man-- then in death God has no choice but to give him what he's been asking for all his life. And that's separation from God. God didn't want it, that's man's choice.
    How many homeless people have you helped? Until I see you out there helping the homeless I don't respect your opinion because you seem to care more about what Jesus MIGHT have said than what he actually did say.

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    Quote Originally Posted by alphaman
    script-

    congrats on the child!
    Thanks, man.

    1 Timothy 2:9
    9I also want women to dress modestly, with decency and propriety, not with braided hair or gold or pearls or expensive clothes, 10but with good deeds, appropriate for women who profess to worship God.
    James 4:11-12
    Speak not against one another, brethren. He that speaks against [his] brother, or judges his brother, speaks against [the] law and judges [the] law. But if thou judgest [the] law, thou art not doer of [the] law, but judge.

    One is the lawgiver and judge, who is able to save and to destroy: but who art *thou* who judgest thy neighbour?

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    Quote Originally Posted by scriptfactory
    How many homeless people have you helped? Until I see you out there helping the homeless I don't respect your opinion because you seem to care more about what Jesus MIGHT have said than what he actually did say.



    Huh?

    Well, as far as the homeless-- I work 65 hours a week, host a small group at my house on Saturday, and a men's bible study on Wesdnesday. I'm going to try and start going to the Mission when I can, but I must say that I need to focus more on that.
    Last edited by alphaman; 07-17-2006 at 07:47 PM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by scriptfactory
    Thanks, man.


    James 4:11-12
    Speak not against one another, brethren. He that speaks against [his] brother, or judges his brother, speaks against [the] law and judges [the] law. But if thou judgest [the] law, thou art not doer of [the] law, but judge.

    One is the lawgiver and judge, who is able to save and to destroy: but who art *thou* who judgest thy neighbour?

    What woman have I spoken against or judged?

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    Quote Originally Posted by alphaman


    Huh?

    Well, as far as the homeless-- I work 65 hours a week, host a small group at my house on Saturday, and a men's bible study on Wesdnesday. I try to make it to the Mission as many Monday nights as I can, but I must say that I need to focus more on that.
    I was referring to Matthew 25:41-46, I think.

    All I'm trying to get at is there are more important things in this world to worry about than premarital sex. There are more important things than women dressing in sexy clothes. Who are you and I to judge people because they are gay or wear bikinis or engage in premarital sex?...

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    Oh, and as far as you statement about polytheism. And our long running argument about the divinity of Christ-- explain this one to me:

    John 8:58 eipen <2036> (5627) {SAID} autoiV <846> o <3588> {TO THEM} ihsouV <2424> {JESUS,} amhn <281> {VERILY} amhn <281> {VERILY} legw <3004> (5719) {I SAY} umin <5213> {TO YOU,} prin <4250> {BEFORE} abraam <11> {ABRAHAM} genesqai <1096> (5635) {WAS} egw <1473> {I} eimi <1510> (5748) {AM.}

    The word that's used there for "I AM" is the same word that's used in the Septuagint(Greek OT) in Exodus 3:14.

    Exodus 3:14
    14 God said to Moses, "I am who I am . [a] This is what you are to say to the Israelites: 'I AM has sent me to you.' "

    I realized I don't have Acrobat on this laptop so if you want to download the interlinear Septuagint....


    http://septuagint-interlinear-greek-bible.com/text.htm

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    Quote Originally Posted by scriptfactory
    I was referring to Matthew 25:41-46, I think.

    All I'm trying to get at is there are more important things in this world to worry about than premarital sex. There are more important things than women dressing in sexy clothes. Who are you and I to judge people because they are gay or wear bikinis or engage in premarital sex?...

    First of all, this whole thing started because you stated that there wasn't a moral decline in this country.

    Second, I'm not judging, we are not to judge, but we are commanded to rebuke.

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    Quote Originally Posted by alphaman
    Oh, and as far as you statement about polytheism. And our long running argument about the divinity of Christ-- explain this one to me:

    John 8:58 eipen <2036> (5627) {SAID} autoiV <846> o <3588> {TO THEM} ihsouV <2424> {JESUS,} amhn <281> {VERILY} amhn <281> {VERILY} legw <3004> (5719) {I SAY} umin <5213> {TO YOU,} prin <4250> {BEFORE} abraam <11> {ABRAHAM} genesqai <1096> (5635) {WAS} egw <1473> {I} eimi <1510> (5748) {AM.}

    The word that's used there for "I AM" is the same word that's used in the Septuagint(Greek OT) in Exodus 3:14.

    Exodus 3:14
    14 God said to Moses, "I am who I am . [a] This is what you are to say to the Israelites: 'I AM has sent me to you.' "

    I realized I don't have Acrobat on this laptop so if you want to download the interlinear Septuagint....


    http://septuagint-interlinear-greek-bible.com/text.htm
    Don't want to get into that debate again but you should know the exact same phrase is translated many times in the New Testament as "I am he" and "I am the man" and only once as "I am." Also, the Greek phrase in the NT means literally "I am" and the Hebrew phrase means "to be" or "become" so just because the Greek OT uses the same word, doesn't mean it is.

    First of all, this whole thing started because you stated that there wasn't a moral decline in this country.

    Second, I'm not judging, we are not to judge, but we are commanded to rebuke.
    And there isn't a moral decline in this country. Humans have been doing much worse things throughout all of history, including American history. You act like humans just invented blowjobs and homosexuality and raping and killing. Men didn't just start liking big fat titties in the 80's. Adultery didn't just start happening in the 90's.

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    Quote Originally Posted by scriptfactory
    so just because the Greek OT uses the same word, doesn't mean it is.


    Actually, that's exactly what it means. The culture in which the NT was written was the same that the Septuagint was written in. Thus, the same meaning is derived. Simple.

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    Quote Originally Posted by alphaman
    Actually, that's exactly what it means. The culture in which the NT was written was the same that the Septuagint was written in. Thus, the same meaning is derived. Simple.
    Dude. The OT was written in Hebrew. The Septuagint is a Greek TRANSLATION of the original texts. End of story.

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