Pyramid cycles

[Rookie1974]

Most of the cycles I see start at a dose stay with it for 10-12 weeks and stop...abruptly. Now I understand that PCT helps while comming off, but why not taper off gently?

[marcus300]

In general the dose usualy just stops but ive seen good results from tapering dose at the end of the cycle in the over 30's, many can just do pct and recover but some have problems and ive seen this method of tapering and tried it with results.

[DarKOmeN]

pyramids old skool people used to believe lowering dosages near to end of cycle would stop the crashing of weight.Pretty sure this was used b4, pct was a must with anti e"s n other drugs wer used. if pct is done properly gain loss is minimum.
I could be wrong tho.
....Darkomen

[Danbrooks2k]

well I wont argue with marcus, ramping up slowly and back down again before PCT sounds good on paper...

I really dont because at the end of a cycle ( say 12 weeks ) I am just as shut down from 200-300 mgs of test as if i was taking 800-1000mg of test... so I just stick with a full dose throughout.

pyramid cycles are considered old school...

But I am not a doctor so I dont see anywhere that it says they dont work... I guess like marcus suggested you have to try one out for yourself and see if you like the gains and if PCT is any easier... if it works for you then I say go with it.

I made great gains using sust twice a week eventhough its well know that you need sust at least every other day to keep correct blood levels from the propinate... but conversley I do well with 1 shot of sust every day and dont bloat much or get any bad sides but common wisdom says 250mg of sust ED is a tad on the high side...

like marcus said try it for yourself... like I said pyramids are oldschool... so if your ok with a larry scott, or arnold shwarzeneger old school type build I suppose it would be ok... not me baby I want to look like ronnie coleman his symmetry and astetics are so much nicer than arnolds ( sarcasm ) LOL

honestly I used pyramid cycles to conserve my juice years ago, now I brew at home mostly so I can afford to get nutty with it...

[V_Vandetta]

pyramids old skool people used to believe lowering dosages near to end of cycle would stop the crashing of weight.Pretty sure this was used b4 pct with anti e"s n other drugs wer used as if pct is done properly gain loss is minimum.
I could be wrong tho.
....Darkomen

you are 100% correct since my self being old school.... and tappering down doasge were the way to go with keeping gains .... becasue 5+ years ago we did not have all the AI's that are around today But there is some flaw with tappering and pyraminding depending on the compound ..... thus why many of old school juicers .... bridged cycles never coming off ..... But in all truth PCt back than was HCG Clomid and Nolva ....... as for bloat well just lived with that or used dandyline root even lasix ( wich is very bad does dont spare pottasium ) ........ but as things became open to the market chaged the way things were done .............. To this day i still like to front load

[marcus300]

Yes pyramid cycles are old scholl and slowly uping the dose at the begining is very old school, i am not saying this all am saying is ive seen many taper down the test to the pct time at the end of a cycle to help with recovery, in the over 30's it works good in some,

Ive also seen the low supression gear taper down up to pct time aswell with results, alot just stop do pct and recover thats fine, but what about the people who have major problems? tapering does help these bb's ive seen it but yes soon as you mention taper its OLD SCHOOL, am talking about a slight taper up to pct time.

[V_Vandetta]

Yes pyramid cycles are old scholl and slowly uping the dose at the begining is very old school, i am not saying this all am saying is ive seen many taper down the test to the pct time at the end of a cycle to help with recovery, in the over 30's it works good in some,

Ive also seen the low supression gear taper down up to pct time aswell with results, alot just stop do pct and recover thats fine, but what about the people who have major problems? tapering does help these bb's ive seen it but yes soon as you mention taper its OLD SCHOOL, am talking about a slight taper up to pct time.

what did you thnk about front loading ????

[marcus300]

what did you thnk about front loading ????

excellent for certain cycles, but you know me i like the front load and keep front loading for 30 days!!!!

[V_Vandetta]

excellent for certain cycles, but you know me i like the front load and keep front loading for 30 days!!!!

LMAO i knew you were going to say that

[vitor]

To me it woudnt make sense to taper down a drug with 100%supression ratio like test, tren or deca. As 200mgs ew will cause complete shutdown yust like 2g ew would. There is no benefit there imho.

But if you where to run the heavy anabolics in the start, and then switch over to milder androgens with a far better anabolic to supression ratio like masteron, prim,o winny in the end of the cycle, your HPTA might wake up somewhat b/f you even finnish the whole cycle.

There is alot of bb-ers who cycle this way in my country. HCG are normally used right after you come of the heavy androgens and used while youre using the milder aas up until PCT.

[marcus300]

There are many different ways to cycle you have to have tried them for yourself to see if they work, alot on this board are set in there ways for cycling and all the rest just follow,

I have one client who tapers all the time since he hit early 30's, he just's taper the test right down over the following weeks taking hcg and when he enters pct he recoverys alot faster than when he just stops, now it works for him and he maintains a hell of alot of muscle tissue this guy and knows his body inside out,

suppose it works for some and in others it doesnt, just like many things in this sport.

[V_Vandetta]

There are many different ways to cycle you have to have tried them for yourself to see if they work, alot on this board are set in there ways for cycling and all the rest just follow,

I have one client who tapers all the time since he hit early 30's, he just's taper the test right down over the following weeks taking hcg and when he enters pct he recoverys alot faster than when he just stops, now it works for him and he maintains a hell of alot of muscle tissue this guy and knows his body inside out,

suppose it works for some and in others it doesnt, just like many things in this sport.

See I have to agree ......... with tapering down and keeping gains ... I my self over the years have tryed ALL KINDS of ways to cycle LONG up down staggering dosages .......... for my self as I got bigger in size and my AAS dose got higher and higher ........ I found that my natty test was suppressed no matter what i did ....... And to be honest back than i did'nt care as long as I got big .... but with age you get smarter and it was real important to keeping gains by kicking natty test back in verse longger cycles ................. So now over the years I know what dose does what and what part of my cycle requires HCG to help with recovery because that's where the magic of the hole cycle is KEEPING YOUR GAINS ...... and belive when when I say this I have made the dumb mistakes ........ gaining 15+ pounds and 6 weeks afetr cycles see all but a few pounds remain .. Not to say about the cutteing cycles that seem all my hard earned LBM go bye bye ..

I know marcus has said LOL and so do I the importance of keeping loggs on cycles and diets training ext............ and trying different things becasue the only sure fired way is to try fro your self and go from there ........ than you will be able to know for sure what works and what does not .. by trail and error

thus for the frist time I will be trying the short cycle .. why i never tryed it 2 I wont know until I do who knows I may find that i get the gains in 4 weeks verse 25 weeks at this satge in the game I cant get 25 pounds every cycle .... but who knows and day three with the prime I missing my carbs

[Duke of Earl]

I like to drop down to a mild oral at the end of my cycle for around 3-4 weeks before PCT
I've used var at the end of test E cycles - I feel like my HPTA can begin to recover whilst only taking the var, but it means I keep my gains during this period... then when I hit PCT I've already begun recovery so it's easier - i also find a little HCG at the end of the Test helps smooth things into my 'step down' phase

[marcus300]

See I have to agree ......... with tapering down and keeping gains ... I my self over the years have tryed ALL KINDS of ways to cycle LONG up down staggering dosages .......... for my self as I got bigger in size and my AAS dose got higher and higher ........ I found that my natty test was suppressed no matter what i did ....... And to be honest back than i did'nt care as long as I got big .... but with age you get smarter and it was real important to keeping gains by kicking natty test back in verse longger cycles ................. So now over the years I know what dose does what and what part of my cycle requires HCG to help with recovery because that's where the magic of the hole cycle is KEEPING YOUR GAINS ...... and belive when when I say this I have made the dumb mistakes ........ gaining 15+ pounds and 6 weeks afetr cycles see all but a few pounds remain .. Not to say about the cutteing cycles that seem all my hard earned LBM go bye bye ..

I know marcus has said LOL and so do I the importance of keeping loggs on cycles and diets training ext............ and trying different things becasue the only sure fired way is to try fro your self and go from there ........ than you will be able to know for sure what works and what does not .. by trail and error

thus for the frist time I will be trying the short cycle .. why i never tryed it 2 I wont know until I do who knows I may find that i get the gains in 4 weeks verse 25 weeks at this satge in the game I cant get 25 pounds every cycle .... but who knows and day three with the prime I missing my carbs

The above is experinece and knowing your body,its also the key to building and maintaining muscle tissue, no matter what cycle your doing always do WHAT WORKS for you to reach your goals,

[Swifto]

To me it woudnt make sense to taper down a drug with 100%supression ratio like test, tren or deca. As 200mgs ew will cause complete shutdown yust like 2g ew would. There is no benefit there imho.

But if you where to run the heavy anabolics in the start, and then switch over to milder androgens with a far better anabolic to supression ratio like masteron, prim,o winny in the end of the cycle, your HPTA might wake up somewhat b/f you even finnish the whole cycle.

There is alot of bb-ers who cycle this way in my country. HCG are normally used right after you come of the heavy androgens and used while youre using the milder aas up until PCT.

Agreed.

But whenusing the less suppressive androgens, this may definitely work and I'm about to try it next cycle...With bloodwork. Drop the Testosterone (Test Prop) and continue to run Tbol or Dbol, with Primo for another 6-8 weeks and get bloodwork done. Then see if the Pituitary had began to resume hormone output. It may work, may not. I'm thinking of it as a little experiement.

I'm also going to start using AI/SERMS and other PCT compounds when still tapering down the less suppressive androgens, Tbol/Dbol with Primo.

[stupidhippo]

tapering doesnt look good on paper cause such a small amount of test is enough to cause almost total suppression.. But I do believe wiht a littlebit of a different approach and some fine tuning a more optimal way could be found than the present standard. I also believe its possible what Marcuses friend is describing.. What Im suggesting is when u know ur exo gear levels are low enough (time to hit PCT) maybe some sort of low dose pyramiding could be used, or possibly using a compund that is mildly inhibitory. The key would be to use a dose that wont hamper (very much atleast) HPTA recovery while being still a big boost in keeping gains etc... Now sumin like this is probably done and I would be interested in hearing what ppl with experiece think...

[stupidhippo]

Agreed.

But whenusing the less suppressive androgens, this may definitely work and I'm about to try it next cycle...With bloodwork. Drop the Testosterone (Test Prop) and continue to run Tbol or Dbol, with Primo for another 6-8 weeks and get bloodwork done. Then see if the Pituitary had began to resume hormone output. It may work, may not. I'm thinking of it as a little experiement.

I'm also going to start using AI/SERMS and other PCT compounds when still tapering down the less suppressive androgens, Tbol/Dbol with Primo.

Im thinking the same... Im thinking like 5 or 10 MG of dbol every morning (dose can be changed if someone has good advise on it) for a month after cycle.. Also BW would be important at the end..

[Swifto]

When the Hypothalamus has less estrogen, androgen or progesterone recpetors activated, it will signal to the Pituitary to resume hormone output again. Can this be achievable with using certain compounds?....Possibly.

[stupidhippo]

also after a cycle what is a key point is how long does the HPTA take to recover.. Thats y some sort of pyramiding or using mildly suppressive compunds could theoretically be useful.. to help keep gains while the HPTA is recovering.. also another IMO a valid question is can gains be kept anyway in the long run without future cycles (if y u are at advanced level-in regards to ur own natural potential). I know thats aanother topic.. lets not get into that..

[Swifto]

Im thinking the same... Im thinking like 5 or 10 MG of dbol every morning (dose can be changed if someone has good advise on it) for a month after cycle.. Also BW would be important at the end..

I know I dont agree on some of Ross's ideas (like many people) but this was his latest one. I thought it may have some use and maybe have some poisitve effects.

My next cycle is:

wk 1-8 Test Prop 50mg/ED
wk 1-10 Tbol 80mg/ED
wk 1-12 Primo 500-800mg/wk

Bloodowk done at week 10 or 11. If my Pituitary has resumed hormone output and LH/FSH and T have rissen. I may cruise on Primo 400-600mg/wk and 25-50mg/ED Proviron for ? more weeks and get bloodwork done again. Cant wait!

[stupidhippo]

good luck with that... I personally suspect the primo dose could be too big.. but hey, I could be wrong, especially if ppl already have experiences on this... Keep us posted.... If ur BW is in order (including lipid profiles and such, that would seem like a pretty good way to go..) Are u then thinking on actually bridging into ur next cycle with this or gonna have decent time off anyway?

[Swifto]

good luck with that... I personally suspect the primo dose could be too big.. but hey, I could be wrong, especially if ppl already have experiences on this... Keep us posted.... If ur BW is in order (including lipid profiles and such, that would seem like a pretty good way to go..) Are u then thinking on actually bridging into ur next cycle with this or gonna have decent time off anyway?

I finished PCT on my 14 weaker 4-5 weeks ago. Bloodwork came back good. I'll get it done again though soon as I'm using Accutane to combat some acne on my chest/shoulders and back.

I'm taking 6 months "off" as I think I didnt take enough time "off" after my first cycle. Then doing a 10-12 weaker on the compounds I've listed.

The reason I say the word, "bridge" is I find it hard, even with a decent PCT protocol and good recovery to attain my gains, post cycle. I feel, this is because I'm a TOTAL endo! Familly is, I am etc...This is why, next time I may use IGF/Clen and possibly try bridging with less suppressive, milder compounds at sensible dosages. I'm also going to keep the actual cycle relatively short, maybe 8-12 weeks. Undecided on that one at the moment.

[stupidhippo]

I am also in the same boat as u... I find it also very hard to keep gains after a cycle in the long run.. I am not an endo though buut still... Bench press is a good example.. natty I was lifting 375 lbs... and after some months off gear I am dropping to that same level.. no matter what I do it seems.. If I was to continously cycle on / off with some months in between I could see myself gaining (2 steps up and one down) but I find this rather dumb cause knowing that I aint gonna cycle for my whole life and I wouldl end up the same anyway.. This PCT I m gonna do everything perfect (to the current view) and then in the time off if I slump back to where I was Im gonna call it quits for now... (cycling that is) ...

[Surrender]

pyramids old skool people used to believe lowering dosages near to end of cycle would stop the crashing of weight.Pretty sure this was used b4, pct was a must with anti e"s n other drugs wer used. if pct is done properly gain loss is minimum.
I could be wrong tho.
....Darkomen

yes we didn't have meds years ago for PCT. I've been cycling off and on since the 70's and still don't use PCT. IMO it's a waste of money. I don't crash and lose a ton of size. I just lower the doses at the end and it works just as well and a hell of a lot cheaper. Some of you should give it a try and see if you see any difference between pct and just ramping down the doses. Might surprise yourselves

[marcus300]

yes we didn't have meds years ago for PCT. I've been cycling off and on since the 70's and still don't use PCT. IMO it's a waste of money. I don't crash and lose a ton of size. I just lower the doses at the end and it works just as well and a hell of a lot cheaper. Some of you should give it a try and see if you see any difference between pct and just ramping down the doses. Might surprise yourselves

intresting no pct what so ever, like ive stated ive seen and tried lowering the dose up to pct but never no pct at all,

could you tell me once you have totally come off how long do you leave it until you cycle again?

[stupidhippo]

good question... I was thinking the same... and to marcus: can u specify more on how did u taper down the dose and how did u feel it was, a good way to ease inot PCT or not?

[vitor]

yes we didn't have meds years ago for PCT. I've been cycling off and on since the 70's and still don't use PCT. IMO it's a waste of money. I don't crash and lose a ton of size. I just lower the doses at the end and it works just as well and a hell of a lot cheaper. Some of you should give it a try and see if you see any difference between pct and just ramping down the doses. Might surprise yourselves

Thats very stupid, not using PCT. Especially if you use compounds that aromatase. When you come off, testosterone will be low and estrogen high, no good.
The whole point with PCT is to block the hypotalamus/pituitary from estrogen, so that the pituitary will be able to produce LH much more rapidly, as estrogen will inhibit this process. When you lower your estrogen levels, testosterone levels will automatically increase.

By using an AI in PCT you can even 3-4x your own testosterone levels. Which makes it much easier to keep gains or even continue to make gains when you come off.

[BG]

Before HRT, I started tappering down at week 10 until reaching 200mgs of test ew (usualy making it 14 week total cycle) , I ran that for two weeks then went into normal pct protocal for the test ester used.

[BG]

Thats very stupid, not using PCT. Especially if you use compounds that aromatase. When you come off, testosterone will be low and estrogen high, no good.
The whole point with PCT is to block the hypotalamus/pituitary from estrogen, so that the pituitary will be able to produce LH much more rapidly, as estrogen will inhibit this process. When you lower your estrogen levels, testosterone levels will automatically increase.

By using an AI in PCT you can even 3-4x your own testosterone levels. Which makes it much easier to keep gains or even continue to make gains when you come off.

Totaly agree, pct is a must.

[Swifto]

yes we didn't have meds years ago for PCT. I've been cycling off and on since the 70's and still don't use PCT. IMO it's a waste of money. I don't crash and lose a ton of size. I just lower the doses at the end and it works just as well and a hell of a lot cheaper. Some of you should give it a try and see if you see any difference between pct and just ramping down the doses. Might surprise yourselves

I wouldnt call that a sensible way of cycling at all. But if its effective, why change?

That, to me, shows how much our bodies differ from person to person and how one drug can have one effect and a VERY different effect on someone else. Intresting.

[G-1000]

This has been gone over 100 times.

[neverenuff21]

good read