The ?ultimate? non-steriod cycle

[Babel]

Before the slandering commences, I'll tell you right from the start. I'm a complete newbie when it comes to weightlifting and bodybuilding. I know allot about steroids (I’m studying medicine) but have no self experience with them whatsoever. I have a friend though… who I shockingly just realized is on his second steroid cycle. He is what you all would call a steroid junkie, he does oral only cycles (anavar, turinabol) and has a long way yet until he reaches his natural potential. I’ve advised him countless of times to “eat right” and “exercise” with the right amount of rest, but he still persists to use steroids. So I’ve finally given up badgering him about it. Until now. As a new years resolution we made a pact. If I can beat him in strength and mass after his 9 weeks oral cycle with just legal and non-medical supplements he’ll back out of steroids at least until he has reached a level where he can’t go any further.

Researching the world of BB and anabolic steroids I stumbled upon this forum. I can see that even though almost all of you use steroids you often advise people like my friend to exercise more and come back in a few years time. My idea is that this thread will be the thread where you’ll reference other people who comes here prematurely or poorly informed asking about dbol 10/60 cycles.

I’ll do anything in my power to beat him, I’ll train hard, eat right, rest just enough and build muscles. I know from past experience that if I just touch a weight I’ll gain muscles, I know I can beat him. He doesn’t have my motivation and he doesn’t eat and rest right.

My Stats:
Age: 23
Weight: 185lbs
Height: 6’3’’
BF: 12.6%

Training experience
Almost none – I exercise at the gym 1-2 times a week, I’ve been doing it this last year on and off. I’m an ex long distance runner (marathon – 10k, 5k) and my body can take huge amounts of heavy training without getting sides and fatigue.

Supplements:
Gainer (25% proteins, 75% carbs)
Creatine
r-ALA
0mega3
Vitamins

Training program
Monday: Biceps, Triceps, Breast
Tuesday: Legs, A**omen
Wednesday: Shoulders, Back
Thursday: Biceps, Triceps
Friday: Rest
Saturday: Breast, A**omen
Sunday: Shoulders, Back

I’ll upload “before” pics in a moment. What kind of gains do you expect after 10 weeks? And is it possible for me to beat him at all?

[Babel]

Before pics.

[chaznad]

easy with the flexin bro ,, you might pull something

[*Narkissos*]

Welcome aboard.

My Stats:
Age: 23
Weight: 185lbs
Height: 6’3’’
BF: 12.6%

Training experience
Almost none – I exercise at the gym 1-2 times a week, I’ve been doing it this last year on and off. I’m an ex long distance runner (marathon – 10k, 5k) and my body can take huge amounts of heavy training without getting sides and fatigue.

Supplements:
Gainer (25% proteins, 75% carbs)
Creatine
r-ALA
0mega3
Vitamins

What're your friend's stats?

Training program
Monday: Biceps, Triceps, Breast
Tuesday: Legs, A**omen
Wednesday: Shoulders, Back
Thursday: Biceps, Triceps
Friday: Rest
Saturday: Breast, A**omen
Sunday: Shoulders, Back

Your training split could use a lot of restructuring.

Training for hypertrophy is a far different beast than that to which you're accustomed.

You can't approach training for hypertrophy in the manner that you'd approach training for a marathon.

btw: @ 'breast'

Could you beat him?

If he's as sad a case as you think... possibly.

But in 10 weeks?

Highly Unlikely.

What can you expect in 10 weeks of a hypertrophy-specific routine? (taking your current level of training into consideration?)

approx. 2 lbs LBM/month: 5 lbs LBM @ 10 weeks

Narkissos

[G-1000]

Don’t take it the wrong why. but when you done with purity you will but on 15 to 20 pounds.

[Decoder]

just take a ass load of nitrix and and and no explode that will be enough forget that other stuff lol.. the nitrix alone will have him beat.. I can honestly say i can pump way more weight with nitrix than lets say winstrol?

[fLgAtOr]

easy with the flexin bro ,, you might pull something

Don't be an asshole.


Babel,

Congrats on not wanting to jump into a cycle. I know you want to surpass your boy, but remember to focus on beating your own stats and records.

If you need help, just ask.

[Babel]

Don't be an asshole.


Babel,

Congrats on not wanting to jump into a cycle. I know you want to surpass your boy, but remember to focus on beating your own stats and records.

If you need help, just ask.

I would apreciate some advise when it comes to training. I'm going from running approx 100 miles/week to a weightlifting regime. Right now I'm doing basic sets of 3*8 on every exercise resting 2mins between each 8. Another thing, how long should each training session be for maximum mass and aesthetic gains? And should I focus on smaller musclegroups that are "more" visible"?

[Babel]

Welcome aboard.

Thanks!

What're your friend's stats?

Stats:
age: 22 years
weight: 190lbs
height: 6'
BF: 16%

Training experience:
1 year serious training, has been playing football since he was 8.

Your training split could use a lot of restructuring.

Training for hypertrophy is a far different beast than that to which you're accustomed.

You can't approach training for hypertrophy in the manner that you'd approach training for a marathon.

Do you have any good links or information for me to research, I know that for quality mass gains you can't do it the same way I approach marathontraining (where every extra mile gives you gains)

btw: @ 'breast'

chest... right?

Babel

[Dog-Slime]

I would apreciate some advise when it comes to training. I'm going from running approx 100 miles/week to a weightlifting regime. Right now I'm doing basic sets of 3*8 on every exercise resting 2mins between each 8. Another thing, how long should each training session be for maximum mass and aesthetic gains? And should I focus on smaller musclegroups that are "more" visible"?

I would cut the rest period to 60-90 seconds. Make a training log (im sure there are plenty on the internet you can print out). Force yourself to go up on weight EVERYTIME (or reps but you should be goin up on weight very easily at first) Keeping a training log helped me put on muscle faster than anything else. Try to add 5 or 10 pounds to each excersice and only work out each muscle group once a week. Abs you can get away with twice. If you are having trouble goin up each week try a different routine, 5x5's work great for some.

[Babel]

I've reconsidered my first training split idea thanks to Narkissos. Using this atm: http://www.bodybuilding.com/fun/hst1b.htm where I'll change the number of repetitions every other week and increase the load.

[ITripMidgets]

Dont train biceps and triceps twice a week...there is no reason. First of all, they are both very small muscle groups so 1/week going heavy is PLENTY. Second of all you train both your biceps and triceps on back and chest day...every pulling motion, every rowing motion...when you're benching and when your deadlifting. People fall in love with "Big guns" so they overtrain them. 1 time a week (heavy) is plenty.

[perfectbeast2001]

sounds like an interesting experiment, look forward to seeing what happens. Can you get pics of your buddy too?
If you sort your diet and training out you stand a good chance of beating him. Hearing that "he does oral only cycles" tells me that he is pretty ignorant when it comes to AS. Wouldnt suprise me if his diet sucked a big one too.
post up your current diet and we can all give some advice.

[Babel]

If you sort your diet and training out you stand a good chance of beating him. Hearing that "he does oral only cycles" tells me that he is pretty ignorant when it comes to AS. Wouldnt suprise me if his diet sucked a big one too.
post up your current diet and we can all give some advice.

My diet:

Breakfast
Multivitamins, 0mega3, r-ALA
1 glass - Gainer with Creatine
1 glass - Orange juice
2 loafs of bread with cheese

Brunch
1 glass - Gainer

Lunch
Water
Chicken / Minced meat
Whole wheat spaghetti / Quinoa
peas

Snack
1 glass - Gainer

Dinner
Water
Chicken / Minced meat
Whole wheat spaghetti / Quinoa
Vegetables

Evening snack
Milkshake with fruit (bananas, pears, apples...)

Ahh bolognese!

[stupidhippo]

do u need to beat him in strength or what u look like?

cause if beating him in stregth s ur only goal then my advise is following:

EAT A SHITLOAD - AND I MEAN A SHITLOAD (u will gain some fat but its part of the plan) .. eat 8 meals a day... and keep stuffing urself as u do it... i know its a bitch and u will gain fat but also strength...

Change ur routine to a routine like the westsidebarbell system or similar.. u need to lift big lift.. I would even max out every now and then... if strength was the goal i would drop the 3*8 routine...

Add rest days to ur current routine...

with this u can achieve a pretty nice boost in ur bench etc in 10 weeks.. im guessing u aint lifting that much right now.. what does ur friend lift now.. that would also help to decide weather or not ur goal is reachable..

[Babel]

do u need to beat him in strength or what u look like?

cause if beating him in stregth s ur only goal then my advise is following:

EAT A SHITLOAD - AND I MEAN A SHITLOAD (u will gain some fat but its part of the plan) .. eat 8 meals a day... and keep stuffing urself as u do it... i know its a bitch and u will gain fat but also strength...

Change ur routine to a routine like the westsidebarbell system or similar.. u need to lift big lift.. I would even max out every now and then... if strength was the goal i would drop the 3*8 routine...

Add rest days to ur current routine...

with this u can achieve a pretty nice boost in ur bench etc in 10 weeks.. im guessing u aint lifting that much right now.. what does ur friend lift now.. that would also help to decide weather or not ur goal is reachable..

We've visited a health clinic and done measuring (BF, water and muscle weight) the idea is that quality muscle gains will be the decider. If it's close aesthetic gains decided by someone impartial and experienced (probably a senior member on this board)

My bench sucks *** maximum is 180 lbs. He is about the same and can just barely manage 190lbs. I realy need to work that chest.

My chest routine is:
Incline bench
Wire Butterfly
Dips

Should I focus on the bench-press more?
As I said earlier, I'm doing a HST routine now ( http://www.bodybuilding.com/fun/hst1b.htm )

[perfectbeast2001]

My diet:

Breakfast
Multivitamins, 0mega3, r-ALA
1 glass - Gainer with Creatine
1 glass - Orange juice
2 loafs of bread with cheese

Brunch
1 glass - Gainer

Lunch
Water
Chicken / Minced meat
Whole wheat spaghetti / Quinoa
peas

Snack
1 glass - Gainer

Dinner
Water
Chicken / Minced meat
Whole wheat spaghetti / Quinoa
Vegetables

Evening snack
Milkshake with fruit (bananas, pears, apples...)

Ahh bolognese!

This diet is terrible. It will make you fat and is next to useless in terms of a diet for gaining muscle.
check out http://forums.steroid.com/showthread.php?t=113010 for a good place to start.

You cannot afford to scrimp on diet if you are serious about this. Diet is your No 1 priority. Sit down and spend a good couple of hours working out a diet based on your calorific needs (check "things to consider" in my sig for tips). This is exactly what your buddy probably has neglected because it is boring and tedious. But it is THE KEY to everything when it comes to building muscle.

[vermin]

OK, here is the absolute BEST WAY for a noob to make impressive gains in the time period you have alotted. Get two books: "Super Squats: How to Gain 30 Pounds of Muscle in 6 Weeks" by Randall J. Strossen and "Kelso's Shrug Book" by Paul Kelso.

Between them you will be able to design a 6-8 week program, with a massive diet, using old iron-game techniques to bulk up and make your strength explode. You will add at least 50% to your main lifts in 6 weeks, if not double them. You will not be on AAS, but people will accuse you of it.

And here's the deal - NO PCT required - you will keep 100% of your gains! And that is the real comparison between you and your buddy - not where you both are at 10 weeks, but then where you'll be in 16/18 weeks - you'll still be gaining (or be nicely cut and 15-20 pounds bigger) while he'll be shrinking....

Oh, and in addition to the diet stuff from the folks above, maybe for you the hardest thing will be that other than maybe 3 20 minute cardio sessions at 75% THR, no running for you....

[nephilim666]

best of luck to ya man, heavy compounds will help put on overall mass, while eating big will be the main factor. eat and lift heavy.

be like me! dont do cardio! cardio kills.

[Property of Steroid.com]

OK, here is the absolute BEST WAY for a noob to make impressive gains in the time period you have alotted. Get two books: "Super Squats: How to Gain 30 Pounds of Muscle in 6 Weeks" by Randall J. Strossen and "Kelso's Shrug Book" by Paul Kelso.

Between them you will be able to design a 6-8 week program, with a massive diet, using old iron-game techniques to bulk up and make your strength explode. You will add at least 50% to your main lifts in 6 weeks, if not double them. You will not be on AAS, but people will accuse you of it.

And here's the deal - NO PCT required - you will keep 100% of your gains! And that is the real comparison between you and your buddy - not where you both are at 10 weeks, but then where you'll be in 16/18 weeks - you'll still be gaining (or be nicely cut and 15-20 pounds bigger) while he'll be shrinking....

Oh, and in addition to the diet stuff from the folks above, maybe for you the hardest thing will be that other than maybe 3 20 minute cardio sessions at 75% THR, no running for you....

Interesting. In my last Blog, I reccomended that the average user stop buying steroid books and reading about steroids, and focus on reading 5x as much about training as they do about steroids...

[vermin]

Interesting. In my last Blog, I reccomended that the average user stop buying steroid books and reading about steroids, and focus on reading 5x as much about training as they do about steroids...

Well, that's a little scary...I try to keep up with your blog, but was still on the "Anvar" post. Anyway, there is no doubt it is correct, particularly until someone reaches their more or less natural plateau (at least 3-5 years of iron). I am personally a big fan of the old school books - a lot written today may talk about "whey powder", but I think are written with the understanding that the "serious reader" will have access to AAS. The old school stuff was conceived before AAS was really available, and they managed to get big and strong anyway.

Squat, bench, deads, rows, shrugs, and eat. That is really all the beginner should focus on, at least for the first 6-12 months, then you can start adding in more refined and focused exercises to define the beast you've built.

(Off to find out how right I am at Anthony's blog site...)

[vermin]

OK Babel, well Anthony did not mention my book suggestions (an oversight, I am sure ) but he makes suggestions for a whole bunch of other ones, included a couple I had never run across before - but will be ordering.

I suggest you check out his site and and least look at the abstracts of the books he mentions to help you out. I still personally attest to Strossen and Kelso, but the important thing is to know what you are doing.

Oh, and if you can, get a training partner. Another of the probably most critical and least discussed elements for success.

[Babel]

I've decided on going for a HST (Hypertrophy specific training) split since it fits my type of thinking and seems about right when I compare it to recent studies concerning hypertrophy.

You should actually train a muscle group atleast 3 times a week for maximum gain. The only consideration I have is that HST is a complete body workout. Is it optimal for maximum gains to work the entire body in one exercise. Can the body metabolise that much protein throughout the entire body??? ... and without AS?

Any thoughts?

[perfectbeast2001]

I've decided on going for a HST (Hypertrophy specific training) split since it fits my type of thinking and seems about right when I compare it to recent studies concerning hypertrophy.

You should actually train a muscle group atleast 3 times a week for maximum gain. The only consideration I have is that HST is a complete body workout. Is it optimal for maximum gains to work the entire body in one exercise. Can the body metabolise that much protein throughout the entire body??? ... and without AS?

Any thoughts?

and this three times a week assumption is based on what? Everyone is different, some MIGHT grow training the same group three times a week, many (myself included) would be horribly overtrained and actually lose muscle. Stick with what is proven to work for normal people, not what works for Ronnie Coleman.

[Babel]

First week in and I've gained weight... let’s say I'm not surprised. I'm training less and eating more so that part of the plan is going well I guess. I've somewhat over-trained this week with 5 out of 7 days in the gym. I'm too used training hard at least 6 times a week and I haven't been running at all either. Done some walks on off-days to get the bloods flowing.

I think it's just psychological but my bench has increased from 180 to 190lbs (could NEVER have done that a week earlier). I think it's the creatine that’s kicking in.

New weight: 188lbs
BF: 12.5% (error margin 0.2%)

Feeling strong and invincible, getting some heavy muscle pumps while training. I’m very happy with my HST split. It will be nice to see if the results are as great.

[STB]

I like HST, especially for you. It is structured in execrsize and wieght so you don't start freelancing. That is as long as you have the right 10-12 exersizes.

It should include:

Squats
Deads
Bench
Chins
Shoulder press
Dips

Add in a couple of bicep and tricep moves and you will be in goos shape.

Your diet - 2 loaves of bread with cheese?!? You need eggs, ANPB, wheat bread, oatmeal, red meat, chicken, fish, sweet potatos, broccoli, nuts...and you need alot of it.

You also need whey protein and glutamine to go along with your creatine. (which alone should give you 5-10 lbs on water.)

Good luck - and keep researching.


Bluesman

[Babel]

Your diet - 2 loaves of bread with cheese?!? You need eggs, ANPB, wheat bread, oatmeal, red meat, chicken, fish, sweet potatos, broccoli, nuts...and you need alot of it.

You also need whey protein and glutamine to go along with your creatine. (which alone should give you 5-10 lbs on water.)

I've upped my protein intake to (what I think) is an extreme level (200g/day) and I'm trying my best to spread it out during the day. For me, it’s a complete change of my daily routine.

My training scheme is as follows:

Legs:
Barbell Squat
Stiff-Legged Barbell Deadlift
Seated Calf Raise

Chest:
Barbell Incline Bench Press
Dips - Chest Version
Cable Crossover

Back:
Chin-Up
Seated Cable Rows

Traps:
Dumbbell Shrug

Shoulder:
Seated Dumbbell Press
Front Dumbbell Raise
Lying Rear Delt Raise

Bicep/Tricep
Dumbbell Bicep Curl
Cable Rope Overhead Tricep Extension

Abs:
Ab Crunch Machine
Side Ab Crunch Machine

[fLgAtOr]

Is that in one day?

[*Narkissos*]

^^ that's the nature of HSt

[Babel]

Is that in one day?

Yes, Once every other day. Increasing weight every training session until I reach my RM in the end of the week. Starting at 12 repetitions, my plan is to go (12, 10, 8, 6, 4 <4). So far I'm on fire as strenght increases are through the roof.

[Babel]

I'm beginning to scare even myself. Why the heck do you really need anabolics? I'm gaining like crazy. My former track n' field coach wants me to do a drug test and I can't blame him. I've already gained 7lbs (since 02-01-2007) and according to my BIA scale non if it is fat. My arms have grown almost an inch in width and for the first time in my life I have a visible six-pack. I always new I had a natural high test production so I'm not that surprised... but it's going so fast… and I'll soon hit that 200lbs bench I thought would take me at least until early summer to reach.

According to my calculations I've gained 3 LBM (since 02-01-2007) and I'm only a week +2 days in doing stuff hardcore (diet, rest, exercise). Beginners luck? Probably.

[G-1000]

Congrats on your gains.

When you hit your platoe come back.

[Babel]

Not a big difference but remember only 11 days between pictures.

Old Pic:



New Pic:

[G-1000]

Much better. keep working hard.

[Babel]

Much better. keep working hard.

Thanks!

I’m eating 7 egg whites every morning, it’s killing me... I hate egg whites! Whatever I'm doing right I am not about to jinx it. So egg whites are still in.

[mkrulic]

I've upped my protein intake to (what I think) is an extreme level (200g/day) and I'm trying my best to spread it out during the day. For me, it’s a complete change of my daily routine.

My training scheme is as follows:

Legs:
Barbell Squat
Stiff-Legged Barbell Deadlift
Seated Calf Raise

Chest:
Barbell Incline Bench Press
Dips - Chest Version
Cable Crossover

Back:
Chin-Up
Seated Cable Rows

Traps:
Dumbbell Shrug

Shoulder:
Seated Dumbbell Press
Front Dumbbell Raise
Lying Rear Delt Raise

Bicep/Tricep
Dumbbell Bicep Curl
Cable Rope Overhead Tricep Extension

Abs:
Ab Crunch Machine
Side Ab Crunch Machine

you do this in one day. this is a week for me. when you take more time w/ it you'll hit it harder. there's no way your doin 100% w/ this entire routine.
suggestions:
add flat bench, put it before incline.
change stiff legged deads to deads. seperate deads and squat by 4 days. put bb rows from the floor on dead lift day and do dumble rows on your beach muscle back day.
switch seated db press to standing millitary press. need side laterial raises. I like to super set rear/side/front laterial raises. add db clean and press in there too.
I think pull ups are better than chin ups.

[Babel]

you do this in one day. this is a week for me. when you take more time w/ it you'll hit it harder. there's no way your doin 100% w/ this entire routine.
suggestions:
add flat bench, put it before incline.
change stiff legged deads to deads. seperate deads and squat by 4 days. put bb rows from the floor on dead lift day and do dumble rows on your beach muscle back day.
switch seated db press to standing millitary press. need side laterial raises. I like to super set rear/side/front laterial raises. add db clean and press in there too.
I think pull ups are better than chin ups.

Well it kind of depends, this routine works for me. My training background is as said long distance running. My body is used training 2 times a day for approx 4 hours total every day and every week. Muscle fatigue ain't a problem for me.

I'm doing all of 'em to near failure right now at 12 repetitions... I'll go down to 10 until I fail that aswell. That's the nature of the HST program. There are probably better ways do gain lean mass than HST, but for me as a beginner it's great since you have a complete body workout and all the weights are calculated from my 15RM. So no freelancing.

Perhaps I'll add a flat bench to my routine, and I've thought about changing to deads too.

[Babel]

It's two and a half weeks in and it's going great. Lifting, eating, sleeping, walking. It's all I do. I'm starting to feel like a broiler and my body feels heavy... I did a proper BF test today and I'm still at 12.4%. So I guess some of the weight gained has to be water. My BIA scale says that I've gained 5 lbs muscle, but it's not to be trusted since the margin of error is ~5 lbs.

New weight: 193lbs (+8lbs)
BF: 12.4% (error margin 0.2%)
New Bench record: 200 lbs (+20lbs)

Just in:
My friend has just got of my scale, and guess what, he has gained 6 lbs so far. I'm ahead!!! MOAHAHAHAHHAHAHA From his own mouth: "Well... it takes a few weeks for the AS to kick in... ehh... yeah..."

[passthetest]

Nice job keep up the good work.. you could be saving you buddy from a lot of pain

[Gearhead007]

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