Steroids for Health - Moderate Dose Short Cylces REVISED!

[AleX-69]

Introduction
General Advantages of Moderate Dose Short Cycling
Moderate Dose Short Cycling for BULKING
Moderate Dose Short Cycling for Cutting
Basic PCT outline for a short cycle
Things NOT worth including into a short cycle

Introduction

After getting numerous PM’s from Members of this board concerning the Moderate Dose Short Cycle approach I decieded to make a comprehensive guide to this type of cycling.

First I’d like to point out that this type of short cycling is not to be mistaken with the Burst Cylce approach for the competitive athlete wich can be found in this thread http://forums.steroid.com/showthread.php?t=224569 .

Moderate Dose short Cycles on the other hand are more geared to steroid newbies [I would strongly advise to run at least one traditional cycle for Steroid first timers] and recreational BB’s like most of us are. They can be used with great success to limit side effects and to sustain most of the gains you made through PCT.
Keep in mind that moderate dose short cycles can not give you 30+lbs of bulk at a time, but steady - more healthy – gains.

It is curcial that you learn how to train and gain WITHOUT the use of steroids before you even want to think about doing a cycle in general or short cycle in particular.

A typical short cycle for me would last about 4-6 weeks with at least equal time off. After 2 successive cycle I take a longer break (8-12 weeks).
For all users who are not that familiar with their own body I STRONGLY advise doing bloodwork before your first cycle (to determine your normal blood values) and then at least each time you want to jump into another cycle to check if your HPTA has completely recoverd and all other parameters are in check. If you got specific blood work questions feel free to ask.

Under no conditions would I ever recommend the increase of AAS dosages form cycle to cycle. Higher dosages are only needed if you are WAY over your natural limit OR you haven’t had enough time between cycles to completely recover OR you have a very high BF (high BF equals lesser sensitivity to AAS).



General Advantages of Moderate Dose Short Cycling


They have little impact on your Lipid Profile. Sure they still may cause a shitty lipid panel for a short amount of time which equals less time for potential aterial plaque bild up. Keep in mind that a bad lipid profile is the top reason for heart disease!!

Limit androgenic side effects like acne, hair loss, prostate enlargment and testicular shrinkage due to limited androgen buildup.

Limit estrogenic side effects like gyno and high blood pressure due to limited estrogen buildup.

Limit stress on your internal organs like kindeys and liver.

Vastly improved recovery of the HPTA after cycle termination. Therefore more gains can be sustained. [The hypotalamus is still inhibted by only using AAS for 2 weeks but the pituitary takes a longer time to become unresponsive to potential LHRH release from the hypotalamus. Therefore as long as the pituitary isn’t inhibited recovery from a short cycle is rather easy.]

Reduce time with elevated estrogen after cycle termination.



Moderate Dose Short Cycling for BULKING

Moderate Dose Short cycling can be used very effectively to produce solid gains despite the limited time “on”. Before you do a short bulking cycle it is very important to Prime to body before the actual cycle starts.

The priming itself should last at very LEAST 4 weeks and consists of a CKD type diet. Moreover I recommend high rep full body workout with minimal pauses (less the 30 secconds per set; at least 6 sets per bodypart, 3-4 times a week) the week before the actual cycle starts. Therefore all carb stores will be ***leted by day 1 of your cycle and your muscle cells will soak up incomming nutrients like a sponge. Moreover fat gain can be limited that way.

During the ON period I would advise a high prot / moderate – high carb / low fat approach.

Incjetables should be frontloaded on cycle day –1 (If cycle day 1 is Monday, cycle day –1 is Sunday) until 3 days before cycle termination to allow the metabolites to leave the body. Orals should be taken on cycle day 1 till end.

Now on to the Compounds which can be successfully incorporated into a Moderate Dose Short Bulking Cycle:

Testosterone Propionate or Masteron: This should be the base of all cycles due to its effect on satellite cell proliferation and differentiation. It also elevates GH and IGF-1 to a great degree.

Now you have some stacking options. In my mind it is generally not worth stacking more than 3 compounds together and only if those compounds are working through a different pathway (DHT, Nor..). The following list does not include any NOR-based AAS therefore stacking testosterone with more than just one from the following list is rather pointless I feel.

Anadrol
D-Bol
Oral Turinabol

More advanced useres might also take slin into consideration.

Once again: Start frontloading injectable test at cycle day –1 with 2-3 the amount you will be using ED. Use the test until 3 days before the cycle ends. Start the orals on cycle day 1 and run until the last day of your cycle. Then PCT.


Moderate Dose Short Cycling for CUTTING

Moderate Dose Short Cycling can also be used for cutting with great success. In fact I use it for cutting most of the time.

During a typical Moderate Dose Short Cutting Cylce I prime the body during the process of the cycle (see above). After cycle termination I up my calories above maintance therefore giving my body an anabolic signal. Recovery is very easy after such a cycle and a rarley ever loose muscle when coming off a short cutting cycle.
Granted you won’t gain massive amounts of muscle cycling that way, BUT your body composition changes dramatically. For me this is the perfect way of cycling.

The use of Injectables and Orals does not vary from the guidelines above, but the compounds which can be incorporated into a Moderate Dose Short Cutting Cycle do:

Testosterone Propionate or Masteron: see above

Now you have various stacking options. In my mind it is generally not worth stacking more than 3 compounds together and only if those compounds are working through a different pathway (DHT, Nor..). The following list does not include any NOR-based AAS therefore stacking testosterone with more than just one from the following list is rather pointless I feel.

Masterone
Anavar
Oral Turinabol
Winstrol
Halo

More advanced useres might also take slin into consideration.

Basic PCT outline for a short cycle

Well PCT from a short cycle does not change in comaprison to your standard 12 weeker. My basic PCT protocoll looks like this:

Day1: 200mg Clomid / some kind of Herbal Test Boosting Formular / 11b-HSD-1 inhibitor
Day2-4: 100mg Clomid / some kind of Herbal Test Boosting Formular / 11b-HSD-1 inhibitor

Day 5-21: 50mg Clomid / some kind of Herbal Test Boosting Formular / 11b-HSD-1 inhibitor


I use Clomid instead of Nolvadex as for me personally I recover better when using clomid (I tried both). Moreover I don’t use an aromatase inhibtor like Letro as very low estrogen levels could impact recovery AND due to possile estrogen rebound.

After those 21 days PCT I usually take 3 more weeks off and then I am good to go for my next short cycle.

Things NOT worth including into a short cycle

Trenbolone: This is a Nor Based Compound. I have found that the recovery process is lenghtend when using tren and supression is more severe. As rapid recovery is one of the main aims of short cycling tren is not suitable concering this goal in mind. Moreover the results using tren are NOT that much better for me in comparison to winny for example to justify a longer off period.

NPP : see Trenbolone

Long esters : If someone would want to use Long esters in short cycles he whould have to cramp the amount of a certain steroid normally used during 4 weeks into 2 weeks (you shouldn’t use long estered steroids longer than 2 weeks in a short cycle to allow their metabolites clear you body before PCT begins). This causes a massive hormone spike and this elevates the risk of possible side effects. Moreover due to hormone plasma levels not beeing stable gains will be impacted as well.

HCG: HCG is not needed as shrinkage of the testicles should not occour during a short cycle.

IFG-1: I tried IGF-1 during PCT and during a cycle. In my mind it is in no way worth the amount of money it costs. Sure the pumps are awesome and you may be able to reduce your Bodyfat a little more but on the other hand you have a bunch of possible side effects which are not worth taking IMO.

Finasteride: Short cycling is about hitting the androgen receptors hard. Finasteride inhibit DHT conversion which is not desirable. Moreover androgenic sides are rare during a short cycle due to the limited amount of time “on”. If someone would really wanna use a DHT inhibtor I’d opt for a topical one like Nizoral Shampoo.

Estrogen Inhibtors: Should not be needed during a short cycle due to the limited time on. Estrogen helps building muscle. So lowering it to much (letro) might do you more harm than good. Very gyno sensitive persons might choose low dose arimidex during bulking cycles.

Clen: Clenbuterol causes heart cell death. Need I say more?

[Jason865]

http://forums.steroid.com/showthread.php?t=225586


???

[marcus300]

Excellent post, i am also getting many PM's regarding all types of short cycling, no matter what dosage of short cycle you do the prime is the Key tool to it all, this unlocks the growth window and makes a very anabolic enviroment for muscle tissue to grow at a fast rate, there are many ways to prime dont do it do drastic slow and moderate carb cycling will do the job.

Good info for everybody to soak up

[Swifto]

"Vastly improved recovery of the HPTA after cycle termination. Therefore more gains can be sustained. [The hypotalamus is still inhibted by only using AAS for 2 weeks but the pituitary takes a longer time to become unresponsive to potential LHRH release from the hypotalamus. Therefore as long as the pituitary isn’t inhibited recovery from a short cycle is rather easy.]"

Really...I was under the impression GnRH was released from the Hypothalamus, not LHrH...?

If your introducing andorgens that have a suppressiev nature, which the ones listed are, your going to cause inhibition of ganadotropins or shutdown.

Your pituitray will no doubt be shutdown using low doses for small lenghts of time. Or large doses for that matter:

Coviello AD, Matsumoto AM, Bremner WJ, et al. Low-dose human chorionic gonadotropin maintains intratesticular testosterone in normal men with testosterone-induced gonadotropin suppression. J Clin Endocrinol Metab. 2005;90(5):2595-602.

ABSTRACT

In previous studies of testicular biopsy tissue from healthy men, intratesticular testosterone (ITT) has been shown to be much higher than serum testosterone (T), suggesting that high ITT is needed relative to serum T for normal spermatogenesis in men. However, the quantitative relationship between ITT and spermatogenesis is not known. To begin to address this issue experimentally, we determined the dose-response relationship between human chorionic gonadotropin (hCG) and ITT to ascertain the minimum dose needed to maintain ITT in the normal range. Twenty-nine men with normal reproductive physiology were randomized to receive 200 mg T enanthate weekly in combination with either saline placebo or 125, 250, or 500 IU hCG every other day for 3 wk. ITT was assessed in testicular fluid obtained by percutaneous fine needle aspiration at baseline and at the end of treatment. Baseline serum T (14.1 nmol/liter) was 1.2% of ITT (1174 nmol/liter). LH and FSH were profoundly suppressed to 5% and 3% of baseline, respectively, and ITT was suppressed by 94% (1234 to 72 nmol/liter) in the T enanthate/placebo group. ITT increased linearly with increasing hCG dose (P < 0.001). Posttreatment ITT was 25% less than baseline in the 125 IU hCG group, 7% less than baseline in the 250 IU hCG group, and 26% greater than baseline in the 500 IU hCG group. These results demonstrate that relatively low dose hCG maintains ITT within the normal range in healthy men with gonadotropin suppression. Extensions of this study will allow determination of the ITT concentration threshold required to maintain spermatogenesis in man.

5-3% of baseline is a lot, I think we would agree...





"Estrogen Inhibtors: Should not be needed during a short cycle due to the limited time on. Estrogen helps building muscle. So lowering it to much (letro) might do you more harm then good. Very gyno sensitive persons might choose low dose arimidex during bulking cycles."

If estrogen buildup is so little, why not start an AI ready for PCT and limit any buildup that may occur helping HPTA recovery after the cycle has ended?

[armbar83]

great post, exactly what i was looking for...

[AleX-69]

http://forums.steroid.com/showthread.php?t=225586


???

That was my original thread but i felt it was rather unorganized, plus there are several statments within the original thread which I do not support.
So i decided to sum up my thoughts about short cycles to make it easier accessible, especially for newbies.

[AleX-69]

@ Swifto

LH-RH is a synonyme for GnRh.

Moreover i i already stated that LH WILL indeed be supressed even after only 2 weeks of moderate AAS usage. I completly agree with you here.
I just wanted to point out that it takes longer time for the pituitary to become unresponsive to LH release leading to an even severe case of shutdown. By short cycling this can be avoided.

Concerning AI use during PCT.. Well this is debatable and i think sane dosages of Arimidex can be run without harm. On the other hand i don't think they will benefit you much (i tried it and i did not felt better recovery wise than i do normaly).

[Swifto]

@ Swifto

LH-RH is a synonyme for GnRh.

Moreover i i already stated that LH WILL indeed be supressed even after only 2 weeks of moderate AAS usage. I completly agree with you here.
I just wanted to point out that it takes longer time for the pituitary to become unresponsive to LH release leading to an even severe case of shutdown. By short cycling this can be avoided.

Concerning AI use during PCT.. Well this is debatable and i think sane dosages of Arimidex can be run without harm. On the other hand i don't think they will benefit you much (i tried it and i did not felt better recovery wise than i do normaly).

Ok cool.

Concerning the drop in LH and other ganadotropins, MyoGenX could be a good move. But who knows if its effects will still be acquired when running suppressive androgens? Just a thought.

Good read.

[Travbedaman]

"IFG-1: I tried IGF-1 during PCT and during a cycle. In my mind it is in no way worth the amount of money it costs. Sure the pumps are awesome and you may be able to reduce your Bodyfat a little more but on the other hand you have a bunch of possible side effects which are not worth taking IMO."

If you want quick muscle gain and fatloss then no, IGF is not your answer.

If your goal is to create more muscle cells than what god gave you, then IGF and only IGF can give that to you. (Well I suppose HGH can too, but that is because of the GH converting to IGF).

[AleX-69]

If you want quick muscle gain and fatloss then no, IGF is not your answer.

If your goal is to create more muscle cells than what god gave you, then IGF and only IGF can give that to you. (Well I suppose HGH can too, but that is because of the GH converting to IGF).

Have you tried IGF-1...??

I even did not notice any more muscle gains in my following cycle due to "more muscle cells" growing.. IgF-1 LR3 is a waste of time and money - at least for me.

[marcus300]

Have you tried IGF-1...??

I even did not notice any more muscle gains in my following cycle due to "more muscle cells" growing.. IgF-1 LR3 is a waste of time and money - at least for me.

I agree just an expensive fat burner, Alex-69 how did you find GH in a short cycle, i normally run a low dose maintanace for the prime and then run a high amount during cycle,

[AleX-69]

I agree just an expensive fat burner, Alex-69 how did you find GH in a short cycle, i normally run a low dose maintanace for the prime and then run a high amount during cycle,

I will be running GH for the first time near summer time but only for the actual cycle period.
I have two buddys who have done the same for contest perp and their appearance changed siginificantly, even though everybody tells you GH needs alot of time to start working...

[perfectbeast2001]

Great post.
What dosage did you run IGF at? I had superb results @ 80mcg ED into quads but no results at all when using 40mcg.

[marcus300]

I will be running GH for the first time near summer time but only for the actual cycle period.
I have two buddys who have done the same for contest perp and their appearance changed siginificantly, even though everybody tells you GH needs alot of time to start working...

Run the GH during priming at maintance dose then when cycle starts hit it hard, great results that way

[AleX-69]

60mcg.. Bi lateral, IM, delts i used MR IGF1-LR3

i found pre-WO to work out better concerning pumps..

Did you notice more muscle gain than usual when on IGF-1 or during the following cycle? Did you expierence significant fat loss OR significant reduction in fat gain?
Very curious.

[AleX-69]

Run the GH during priming at maintance dose then when cycle starts hit it hard, great results that way

kk, will try..

[perfectbeast2001]

60mcg.. Bi lateral, IM, delts i used MR IGF1-LR3

i found pre-WO to work out better concerning pumps..

Did you notice more muscle gain than usual when on IGF-1 or during the following cycle? Did you expierence significant fat loss OR significant reduction in fat gain?
Very curious.

I shot PWO into arms and quads. I did not experience any noticable fat loss but then I was cycling and eating 1000 cals over maintenance! I noticed the gains in muscle in my quads about 4 weeks after discontinuing IGF. My quads never gre like this before and this was my first run with IGF (although I had cycled before). I was also using slin and gh but I feel the site specific growth (i was shooting more quads as they were my main concern) was down to igf.

[Travbedaman]

Have you tried IGF-1...??

I even did not notice any more muscle gains in my following cycle due to "more muscle cells" growing.. IgF-1 LR3 is a waste of time and money - at least for me.

Yep, did a month of IGF (by itself) @ 40 mcg per day for 4 weeks a couple months back, injected into the biceps everyday, within 5 to 10 minutes of completing my workout. If you want the localized growth effects that is when you need to pin it.

Great pumps. No noticeble fat loss, but no fat gain on a surplus calorie diet.

Too many people expect instant Testosterone like growth and DNP fatloss from this stuff. You can get "right now!" effects at retarded doesages like 100 mcg plus, however I`m quite fond of my slim midsection and down the road I prefer not to look like a swallowed a basketball.

[stlhrse]

Hmmm, that's so strange. When I was in high schol (16 years ago) a full cycle was 4-6 weeks, nack when I did Test. Sounds good to me though. I would rather have a few short bursts of small gains that stick, then have a huge gain that withers away. Good read Alex!!

[Property of Steroid.com]

Your pituitray will no doubt be shutdown using low doses for small lenghts of time. Or large doses for that matter:

Agree wholeheartedly. Even 100mgs of Testosterone or 100mgs of deca will shut you completely down.

The reasoning behind short cycles seems very flawed to me.

[marcus300]

Agree wholeheartedly. Even 100mgs of Testosterone or 100mgs of deca will shut you completely down.

The reasoning behind short cycles seems very flawed to me.

It is easier to recover from a short shut down than a longer shutdown, in practise recovery does seem quicker, i would rather shut down my system for 2-3 wks than 12-15 wks, seems logic to me

[Property of Steroid.com]

It is easier to recover from a short shut down than a longer shutdown, in practise recovery does seem quicker, i would rather shut down my system for 2-3 wks than 12-15 wks, seems logic to me

Is this a fact?

I know it seems intuitive and logical, but what would you say if I told you that recovery of HPTA and specifically endogenous testosterone usually presents as a mirror image of the ruduction of exogenous levels of androgen or suppressive compound, regardless of length of suppression....

[*Alex*]

Is this a fact?

I know it seems intuitive and logical, but what would you say if I told you that recovery of HPTA and specifically endogenous testosterone usually presents as a mirror image of the ruduction of exogenous levels of androgen or suppressive compound, regardless of length of suppression....

there you have it, cycle 12 weeks ,its all good.

[marcus300]

Is this a fact?

I know it seems intuitive and logical, but what would you say if I told you that recovery of HPTA and specifically endogenous testosterone usually presents as a mirror image of the ruduction of exogenous levels of androgen or suppressive compound, regardless of length of suppression....

Id say in practise it works no matter what study you start quoting because with every medical study theres another saying something different,

I am talking about real life bodybuilders and there own personal feedback,also ive done it many times myself and without doubt its far better than shutting down for a long time, logic tells you that and its backed up with many people who have had a short shutdown, its alot better shutting down your system for 2-3 wks than 12-15 wks, recovery is faster and alot better, also no withdrawal syptoms,

If it didnt matter how long you shut your system down for we would all be on for 12 months then recovery with no problems, logic and feedback from many BB's tells me alot different than what you think, but i guess you have to try it to see and understand it instead of reading some medical studies done on the average man or mouse

[vitor]

It is easier to recover from a short shut down than a longer shutdown, in practise recovery does seem quicker, i would rather shut down my system for 2-3 wks than 12-15 wks, seems logic to me

I can attest to that from expirience,
ive had BW exactly 6 weeks(42 days) after a moderat lenght cycle(14 weeks) and a short 30 days cycle.

My natrual testosterone was higher after the short cycle.(same PCT).

Its yust like a broken bone which needs to be in a cascet, the longer you have it in the cascet the longer it will take to get the full use back in the bodypart attached to the injury. Its the same with the "lenght" of shutdown imho, commen sense really...

[helium3]

i cant see how anyone can refute that.i would love to do short cycles only,however my requirments mean i have to stay clear of strong androgens or dht derivatives so im stuck with nandrolone at teh moment.

[Kale]

i cant see how anyone can refute that.i would love to do short cycles only,however my requirments mean i have to stay clear of strong androgens or dht derivatives so im stuck with nandrolone at teh moment.

What would those be ? Prostate ?

[marcus300]

I can attest to that from expirience,
ive had BW exactly 6 weeks(42 days) after a moderat lenght cycle(14 weeks) and a short 30 days cycle.

My natrual testosterone was higher after the short cycle.(same PCT).

Its yust like a broken bone which needs to be in a cascet, the longer you have it in the cascet the longer it will take to get the full use back in the bodypart attached to the injury. Its the same with the "lenght" of shutdown imho, commen sense really...

Cant get any better than that, personal feedback stating what everyone experiences when recovering from a short cycle,

Thanks
Vitor

[Property of Steroid.com]

Id say in practise it works no matter what study you start quoting because with every medical study theres another saying something different,

I am talking about real life bodybuilders and there own personal feedback,also ive done it many times myself and without doubt its far better than shutting down for a long time, logic tells you that and its backed up with many people who have had a short shutdown, its alot better shutting down your system for 2-3 wks than 12-15 wks, recovery is faster and alot better, also no withdrawal syptoms,

If it didnt matter how long you shut your system down for we would all be on for 12 months then recovery with no problems, logic and feedback from many BB's tells me alot different than what you think, but i guess you have to try it to see and understand it instead of reading some medical studies done on the average man or mouse

I'm not trying to be offensive, but I am pretty sure you don't correspond with literally thousands of bodybuilders each year.

I answer over a hundred e-mails a day, and my experience and correspondance with real-life steroid using athletes dwarfs anyone elses in the world. I'm not being a douche here, but I'm reasonably sure you don't deal with the sheer volume of input I have access to, nor will you likely ever need to.

My input on this matter has to do with my experience as well as the experiences of the people I've spoken to...which once again, is thousands.
I write out cycles for IFBB pros, man...I don't know how much more real-life it gets than that. And, again, I'm not trying to be a prick, but how many people on this board are writing out cycles for IFBB pros?

(Hint: Just one)

[marcus300]

I'm not trying to be offensive, but I am pretty sure you don't correspond with literally thousands of bodybuilders each year.

I answer over a hundred e-mails a day, and my experience and correspondance with real-life steroid using athletes dwarfs anyone elses in the world. I'm not being a douche here, but I'm reasonably sure you don't deal with the sheer volume of input I have access to, nor will you ever.

I have no idea how many BB's you deal with but i do have a large base of BB's who i advice and get feedback from, many do short cycle and more or less all of them state fast recovery, i must stress tho when using tren recovery is bad and takes alot longer, but when using other straight compounds its without doubt recovering from 2-3wks shutdown is alot easier than recovery from 12-15 wks shutdown, common sense really,

No offensive AR but you deal with alot of newbies and thats your target audience, i deal with real BB's who run there lifes like one, alos you need do do some more research regarding the issues of short cycling like priming something you stated you didnt understand, trust me its one of the most important things any bodybuilder can do if gaining muscle tissue his is goal,

anyway back to the issue, all we can go off is bb's feedback and yet again many state different than what your saying, cant get any better than real life BB's reporting good recovery,

[Property of Steroid.com]

I

No offensive AR but you deal with alot of newbies and thats your target audience, i deal with real BB's who run there lifes like one, alos you need do do some more research regarding the issues of short cycling like priming something you stated you didnt understand, trust me its one of the most important things any bodybuilder can do if gaining muscle tissue his is goal,

How many IFBB professionals do you deal with*? I can't imagine you have written out more cycles for IFBB pros than I have. Just something to think about when you make statements like the one above.

(*Hint: Less than me):

http://forums.steroid.com/showthread...highlight=book

How many NPC national level competitors have you trained?

You don't deal with more people who use steroids than me, and you don't deal with more top level competitors than me. Get that straight before you make claims like that.

[marcus300]

How many IFBB professionals do you deal with*? I can't imagine you have written out more cycles for IFBB pros than I have. Just something to think about when you make statements like the one above.

(*Hint: Less than me):

http://forums.steroid.com/showthread...highlight=book

How many NPC national level competitors have you trained?

You don't deal with more people who use steroids than me, and you don't deal with more top level competitors than me. Get that straight before you make claims like that.

My claim is i am in touch with many bodybuilders who state recovering from short shutdowns is alot easier than long, ive have first hand knowledge aswell, i dont make false claims or take other peoples work as my own, not like some on this board

I am sorry AR and with no offense but i dont take anything what you say with any credability at all, your well know on many boards as something completely different than what you claim around here, i know the truth AR but with respect we will leave it there, you just have a grudge against me for the debate we had and your weak agruments, like i say i dont have any credability at all for anything you say and you know why so not much point in going back and forth with you in your playground,, so i will leave it there and get back to the issue in hand,

[Property of Steroid.com]

My claim is i am in touch with many bodybuilders who state recovering from short shutdowns is alot easier than long, ive have first hand knowledge aswell, i dont make false claims or take other peoples work as my own, not like some on this board

I am sorry AR and with no offense but i dont take anything what you say with any credability at all, your well know on many boards as something completely different than what you claim around here, i know the truth AR but with respect we will leave it there, you just have a grudge against me for the debate we had and your weak agruments, like i say i dont have any credability at all for anything you say and you know why so not much point in going back and forth with you in your playground,, so i will leave it there and get back to the issue in hand,

What's the truth? I'm confused.

How about each of us name someone of national or professional caliber that we've worked with (training, consulting, etc...), and we can each verify the other's claims?

How many world class olympic coaches can you say have quoted you? Or know you.

Lets name names. That sounds fair to me....

Lets see how many Olympic coaches have spoken to you...

You want to claim that my experience is with Newbs, I think I can dispute that claim. I already posted a link showing that an IFBB pro has read my work and that he's one of the people I talk to...

Seriously, lets see some names...because I'll post them as soon as you do...and we'll see how many people you work with compared to me, who are top names. I'm not being shitty here....and I'm willing to prove everything I'm saying. Will you do the same?

[marcus300]

What's the truth? I'm confused.

How about each of us name someone of national or professional caliber that we've worked with (training, consulting, etc...), and we can each verify the other's claims?

How many world class olympic coaches can you say have quoted you? Or know you.

Lets name names. That sounds fair to me....

Lets see how many Olympic coaches have spoken to you...

You want to claim that my experience is with Newbs, I think I can dispute that claim. I already posted a link showing that an IFBB pro has read my work and that he's one of the people I talk to...

Seriously, lets see some names...because I'll post them as soon as you do...and we'll see how many people you work with compared to me, who are top names. I'm not being shitty here....and I'm willing to prove everything I'm saying. Will you do the same?

please re-read the below post with my claims, AR pull your neck back in if told you what i think so let get on with the issue in hand and stop reading something what i havent said, thats poor.

My claim is i am in touch with many bodybuilders who state recovering from short shutdowns is alot easier than long, ive have first hand knowledge aswell, i dont make false claims or take other peoples work as my own, not like some on this board

I am sorry AR and with no offense but i dont take anything what you say with any credability at all, your well know on many boards as something completely different than what you claim around here, i know the truth AR but with respect we will leave it there, you just have a grudge against me for the debate we had and your weak agruments, like i say i dont have any credability at all for anything you say and you know why so not much point in going back and forth with you in your playground,, so i will leave it there and get back to the issue in hand,__________________

[twiney]

Seems someone is avoiding something. Anthony Roberts is the man.

[Property of Steroid.com]

MARCUS:

You made a claim that I deal with a lot of Newbs. I'm simply saying that I also work with a lot of very advanced steroid users as well.

Concommitantly, I doubt that you consult with any IFBB professionals. While I consult with more than one.

If you wish to make claims regarding my credibility or the level of your own knowledge/experience and then not support them with any evidence, in the face of my willingness to support my own claims to the contrary, I would simply. and respectfully, ask that you not do so in the future.

It's unfair and in light of the fact that you refuse to support your claims, I think it's poor form.

[marcus300]

Seems someone is avoiding something. Anthony Roberts is the man.

How can i avoid something when he claims i said something i didnt, re-read the whole thread twiney,

I am not a sheep like many around here, i speak the truth and AR knows that he just as the hump with me, the debate was about claims of recovery when short cycling, vitor claim it was true with him, and i stated thats the general opinion who cycles that way,

My claim is i am in touch with many bodybuilders who state recovering from short shutdowns is alot easier than long, ive have first hand knowledge aswell, i dont make false claims or take other peoples work as my own, not like some on this board

I am sorry AR and with no offense but i dont take anything what you say with any credability at all, your well know on many boards as something completely different than what you claim around here, i know the truth AR but with respect we will leave it there, you just have a grudge against me for the debate we had and your weak agruments, like i say i dont have any credability at all for anything you say and you know why so not much point in going back and forth with you in your playground,, so i will leave it there and get back to the issue in hand,
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[pavlenko]

Well, maybe you guys are talking about completely diff things and people, PRO's use different doses and lengths cycles for a reason of their own proffesional quality muscle. Most BB's do it for their own pleasure and thus dont need such high doses and long cycles. just my .2c's

[Property of Steroid.com]

How can i avoid something when he claims i said something i didnt, re-read the whole thread twiney,

I am not a sheep like many around here, i speak the truth and AR knows that he just as the hump with me, the debate was about claims of recovery when short cycling, vitor claim it was true with him, and i stated thats the general opinion who cycles that way,

My claim is i am in touch with many bodybuilders who state recovering from short shutdowns is alot easier than long, ive have first hand knowledge aswell, i dont make false claims or take other peoples work as my own, not like some on this board

I am sorry AR and with no offense but i dont take anything what you say with any credability at all, your well know on many boards as something completely different than what you claim around here, i know the truth AR but with respect we will leave it there, you just have a grudge against me for the debate we had and your weak agruments, like i say i dont have any credability at all for anything you say and you know why so not much point in going back and forth with you in your playground,, so i will leave it there and get back to the issue in hand,
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Once again, I would ask you to verify your claims with factual evidence.

There is a reason I earn $200/hour for consulting about steroids, and a reason that GQ (this month) features an article I was consulted on. It's not because I have no credibility. Google my name + steroids (or anabolic steroids, or whatever)....then try googling other people's names. I get more hits (all up) than (basically)
anybody else who has ever written about steroids. I can't believe you're questioning my credibility.

Please verify your claims or cease making them. Again, I'm trying to be respectful, and not abrasive...but do you think that perhaps there is a reason I was made a moderator here after 7 posts, and you have thousands and never became one?

[marcus300]

Once again, I would ask you to verify your claims with factual evidence.

There is a reason I earn $200/hour for consulting about steroids, and a reason that GQ (this month) features an article I was consulted on.

Please verify your claims or cease making them. Again, I'm trying to be respectful, and not abrasive...but do you think that perhaps there is a reason I was made a moderator here after 7 posts, and you have thousands and never became one?

AR, ive not said you havent worked with people you state you have, i said you do work and target alot of newbies on this site, thats your buisness to, stop putting words into my mouth thats a weak argument, i didnt state i worked with anyone i stated i have i am in touch with many bb's who say recovery from a short cycle is better than long,

everytime i post your there trying to trip me all the time, thats not just me noticed that either, just re-read the thread and pull your neck back in,

this is with respect, i dont have any credibility for anything you say, your well know on many boards as something completely different than what you claim around here,
IMHO i would have more respect for someone who writes his own work and not copys other peoples and claim its his, people on boards like this can create a whole world about themselves and sell it off, for me i dont buy like many more dont,

I am not intrested how much you earn or work with, why do you always blow your own trumpet?

Am here to give my 19yrs worth of knowledge i dont need to tell lies about anything i am not like that, i dont have anything to sell or need more clients so dont have any motive for people to believe me or not, all i say is try what i say and see if it works,

recovery from short cycles is alot better than shutting your system down for wks on end, logic really,

Yet again if you want to carry your arguments on with me do it by pm or we can meet up sometime, dont keep post weak sh1t and going off what the whole thread is about,

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