Our Son

**nflnut** · 03-08-2007, 03:37 PM

Our son had taken the injectable Winstrol for I believe a 10 week cycle. Several months after concluding the cycle, he had a manic episode. This happened in October 2006. While the mania is long gone, he has a lingering psychosis for lack of a better term. He did have auditory hallucinations that have dissipated and now he will not leave the house as there is some paranoia about leaving house and seeing people. This is now going on 6 months. We are now seeing a doctor who routinely sends blood and urine to a lab and what I think we've learned is that his neutotransmitters are not as they shoud be. I believe dopamine is somewhat elevated and his norepinephrine is considerably low. We are now taking specific vitamins and amino acids in hopes of normalizing things. I'm hoping someone can relate to our situation and provide another point of view or hopefully a good outcome. Thanks

**spywizard** · 03-08-2007, 03:45 PM

that's one of the reasons we restrict access to this board to older men and women. And we always recommend not to run aas to anyone under the age of 23 or older depending on their development..

as for winny only cycle, there are very few that will recommend that..

and i haven't heard of the conditions you are listing being caused by aas use..

sorry your son is experiencing these effects..

**SMAN12b** · 03-08-2007, 03:45 PM

I am sorry to hear that about your son. Sounds like he jumped in before he knew enough to ensure he would be ok after. Winstrol by itself is NOT a good idea.

There are many good people on here and even a doc or two that may be able to give you some better insight.

**shrpskn** · 03-08-2007, 03:46 PM

Sorry to hear about your sons' misfortune...how old is he?

Can you be certain that his condition is directly related to his previous use of AAS?
I find it difficult to believe that one 10 week cycle of winstrol would be the lone culprit for inducing your sons' condition.
There are countless things that can bring about such a condition, from genetics to lifestyle and environment.

**spywizard** · 03-08-2007, 03:49 PM

would you mind giving us his user name on this site??

**Dude-Man** · 03-08-2007, 04:11 PM

I can just about guarantee you that what your son has experienced has little to nothing to do with steroids. As an endocrinology/neuroscience double major, and a third year medical student, it is much more likely that your son would suffer from depression after using anabolic steroids. Mania and schizophrenia (basically what you are describing) have very little to do with the Hypothalamic Pituitary Testicular Axis. If your son is in his late teens to early 20's, this is the typical age of onset for adult schizophrenia.

**donniebrasco** · 03-08-2007, 04:29 PM

i cannot really comment on the use of aas, but as a major recreational drug user in my teens i went through what you describe and was deemed to be suffering from EDITED and EDITED psychosis.
are you sure your son hasnt been dabbling in other drugs.
i never believed it would happen, but it did.

**ottomaddox** · 03-08-2007, 04:37 PM

I'll put money on this one. Good Call.........

Originally Posted by Dude-Man

If your son is in his late teens to early 20's, this is the typical age of onset for adult schizophrenia.

**king6** · 03-08-2007, 04:45 PM

I agree with all of the above. AAS have no effect on the neurological system, as mentioned above, certain other drugs can produce the symptoms you are describing. EDITED can cause seizures in teens, as well as other narcotics.
The problem with doctors is they will usually blame drugs as the culprit to anything. I had a doc tell me steroids gave me my kidney stone, when in fact I had not started my cycle yet when I got them.

**lil-SLIM** · 03-08-2007, 04:54 PM

I'm an abnormal psych major at a large universiy and would second the early onset of adult schizophrenia diagnosis although I haven't received my PHD yet and am no expert

very sorry to hear about your sons condition and I wish him the best

is there a family history of mental illness?

**Dude-Man** · 03-08-2007, 05:07 PM

Yeah, I'd also like to state that my opinion is exactly that. It's an educated guess to the most likely scenario, from what little i know about the case. Please don't misconstrue this for medical advice. I am sorry to hear about your situation as well. I have a sister with brief reactive psychosis- a form of schizophrenia. Luckily, treatments for disorders like this are getting better and better.

**nbkandrew13** · 03-08-2007, 05:13 PM

very unfourtunate hope a dr finds the true issue, they need to test for everything EDITED s. very sorry to hear this though

**romeodun** · 03-08-2007, 06:19 PM

i went through the exact same thing with my younger brother when he was around 20-21. had a manic EPISODE one night. since 2001 he has been on medication. the 2 main factors in his case were
1) he was at the prime age for a mental illness (stress/depression)
2) smoking EDITED , not just ordinary EDITED but EDITED which really messes with you head this i believe is 80% to blame for his condition.

i really would like to tell you a good outcome but i cant, he just sits in his room all day and does nothing, and there is nothing i can do about it because he does not believe that he has got a problem and will not give up the drugs.

So what i am trying to say is your sons case i dont think it is aas related, there most likely is another underlying PROBLEM.

THIS IS JUST MY OPINION.

im sorry to hear about your son, believe me i do know what you are going through, i know things are hard and your really stressed, there is sooo much development in the medicine for mental illness these days and it can be cured.

**Greekman** · 03-08-2007, 06:34 PM

Very sorry to here of your sons condition, but i highly dont think its do to steriods. It could be a number of things. Hopefully a doctor finds the true cause and gets him treated.

**shrpskn** · 03-08-2007, 06:37 PM

Can we tone down the rec. drug discussion in this thread?

Although the use and/or abuse of recreational drugs may result in some cases of drug-induced schizophrenia, we have to remember that it is the policy of this board that there be no discussion of recreation drugs in any way whatsoever.

**cj1capp** · 03-08-2007, 06:59 PM

About Schizophrenia

Schizophrenia is a potentially disabling disorder that affects both the patient and his/her family, and by lost productivity and treatment expenses, society in general. In any given year, approximately 2.2 million American adults, or 1.1% of the U.S. population, have schizophrenia.122 Schizophrenia affects men and women with equal frequency, but symptoms appear earlier in men (late teens or early twenties) compared with women (mid-twenties to thirties). Less well known is the fact that 10% of people with schizophrenia develop it after the age of 40.

The cause of schizophrenia is unknown, but a genetic component has been established through extensive twin studies. Environmental factors may also play a role in the development of schizophrenia. Viral infections and perinatal conditions, such as malnutrition, have been shown to be risk factors for the development of the disease.83,84 Seasons also have an impact; people born between December and May have a 5% to 10% increased incidence of schizophrenia compared with those born during the rest of the year.123

Research into the pathophysiology of schizophrenia is continuing to shed new light on the disorder. Neurotransmitter classes implicated in the pathogenesis of schizophrenia include the dopaminergic, serotonergic, cholinergic, and noradrenergic systems.109 Neuroanatomic studies demonstrate involvement of the cortex, thalamus, basal ganglia, and medial temporal lobes.5

taken from the serqule website

**mick-g** · 03-08-2007, 07:19 PM

Sorry to hear about your son. All i can say is find a good psychiatrist, one that will do not only psycological testing, but physical. All drs are not created equal, and many will just make an assumption without doing any testing and then giving out meds. Find the root of the problem and then you can find the answers. I doubt it is winstrol, that is if it were winstrol to begin with.

**canyonbyker** · 03-08-2007, 08:03 PM

Originally Posted by shrpskn

Sorry to hear about your sons' misfortune...how old is he?

Can you be certain that his condition is directly related to his previous use of AAS?
I find it difficult to believe that one 10 week cycle of winstrol would be the lone culprit for inducing your sons' condition.
There are countless things that can bring about such a condition, from genetics to lifestyle and environment.

Amen to this! I agree

**Kev_325** · 03-08-2007, 10:20 PM

I have known a few people with psychosis, and most of them got it in thier late teens to early twenties, most of the time it is genetic, it is activated if in this age they are severely depressed/stressed out, which can happen at the end of a cycle without pct or with a poor pct, this i believe was the trigger, people in my family have this disease which, so i too need to be very careful when using.

Also, is he on any anti-psychotics yet? if so what is he on? and how long has he been on them for? has he been hospitalized yet, you said that he is getting attention from a doctor but what exactly is he doing?

I am sorry to hear that you are going through this.

**Warrior** · 03-09-2007, 12:04 AM

How old is he? High androgen levels during a period of puberty is certainly a mistake. Most endocrinologist would suggest full maturation at 22-25 years old. Until he has completely finished puberty - allowing his body to manipulate it's own hormones - he should certainly have never touched a single anabolic steroid. This is preached here over-and-over again...

I don't think there is much conclusive evidense out there that would suggest spraphysiological androgen doses using a testosterone deriative would cause physcosis... there are androgen receptors in the brain than can interact with high plasma levels but after cessation of the cycle - this shouldn't be an issue anymore.

I know it is easy to possibly blame it on AAS use but on this board we like to hear the full story - putting the gear on trial. And good supporting medical documentation showing AAS causes long-term symptoms of pyscosis just ain't there... I will got do some research and see what new info can be found though...

**Warrior** · 03-09-2007, 12:53 AM

Steroid-induced psychosis in an adolescent: treatment and prophylaxis with risperidone.

Herguner S, Bilge I, Yavuz Yilmaz A, Tuzun DU.
Turk J Pediatr. 2006 Jul-Sep;48(3):244-7.

Department of Child and Adolescent Psychiatry, Istanbul University, Istanbul Faculty of Medicine, Istanbul, Turkey.

Steroid-induced psychotic disorder is one of the serious adverse effects of corticosteroid therapy and is characterized by hallucinations and delusions. While the mechanism is unclear, treatment of steroid psychosis involves dosage reduction or discontinuation of prednisone. In cases where this cannot be done, typical treatment involves an antipsychotic medication. Although it is a well-known complication in adulthood, literature about steroid-induced psychotic disorder in children and adolescents is lacking. Here we report a 12-year-old case of steroid-induced psychotic disorder who was treated with an atypical antipsychotic, risperidone, and in whom the antipsychotic therapy was maintained because of continuation of her corticosteroid treatment for nephrotic syndrome. Pediatricians should be aware of this rare problem when prescribing corticosteroids in this age group. To our knowledge, this is the first reported case of steroid-induced psychosis successfully treated with risperidone in an adolescent with nephrotic syndrome.

PMID: 17172069 [PubMed - indexed for MEDLINE]

Anabolic-androgenic steroids and psychiatric-related effects: a review.

Uzych L.
Can J Psychiatry. 1992 Feb;37(1):23-8.

Anabolic-androgenic steroid use may have a wide range of adverse psychiatric and behavioural effects. The available data, however, are often inconsistent and inconclusive concerning possible effects of anabolic-androgenic steroids on libido in men, in women and also the way in which they affect libido differently in males and females. Anabolic-androgenic steroids may both relieve and cause depression. Cessation or diminished use of anabolic-androgenic steroids may also result in depression. More study is required to determine whether or not the disparate data on depression are consistent clinical observations. The level of testosterone appears to be positively associated with "aggression", particularly in response to provocation. Various psychotic symptoms and manic episodes may be associated with anabolic-androgenic steroids. The possibility of hypomania induced by synthetic androgens must also be considered.

PMID: 1551042 [PubMed - indexed for MEDLINE]

Serum gonadal steroid hormones in young schizophrenic patients.

Oades RD, Schepker R.
Psychoneuroendocrinology. 1994;19(4):373-85.

RLHK Clinic for Child and Adolescent Psychiatry, University of Essen, Germany.

Psychosis is reported to show a later age of onset in women than in men and its nature and course in women may also differ. The purpose of this study was to determine if levels of four steroid hormones at the start of early onset psychosis differ from the levels of other groups of young people and if predicted low levels of estrogen (E2) are a feature of female psychosis. Two blood samples from 22 young psychotic patients were analysed by radioimmunoassay for E2, progesterone (PROG), testosterone (TE), and dehydroepiandrosterone sulphate (DHEAS). Female psychotic patients showed E2 levels lower than matched healthy cycling controls but higher than those on a contraceptive pill; they also showed higher TE levels than controls. Male psychotic patients had higher DHEAS levels than healthy or obsessive compulsive disorder (OCD) subjects. We suggest that illness-related changes of steroids can be measured superimposed on medication-induced changes and that lower E2 levels in psychotic women may increase their vulnerability to psychosis. Changes of TE in female and DHEAS in male psychotics may be more a consequence of the illness.

PMID: 8047641 [PubMed - indexed for MEDLINE]

**Booz** · 03-09-2007, 05:25 AM

as abouv we are all sorry for what has happened to your son but to put this down to the use of steroids i dont really know about that,this would be the 1st case steroid related that i have heard of,someone correct me if i am wrong here?
any history of rec drug use at all?
how old is your son?
i hope he gets better soon and keep us updated on your sons progress.........

**Warrior** · 03-09-2007, 05:52 AM

Again... whats his age? Any history of mental illness in the family? Has he ever been diagnosed with a mental illness prior to the recent problems...

**jagdpanther** · 03-09-2007, 06:57 AM

Originally Posted by Warrior

Steroid-induced psychosis in an adolescent: treatment and prophylaxis with risperidone.

Herguner S, Bilge I, Yavuz Yilmaz A, Tuzun DU.
Turk J Pediatr. 2006 Jul-Sep;48(3):244-7.

Department of Child and Adolescent Psychiatry, Istanbul University, Istanbul Faculty of Medicine, Istanbul, Turkey.

Steroid-induced psychotic disorder is one of the serious adverse effects of corticosteroid therapy and is characterized by hallucinations and delusions.
PMID: 8047641 [PubMed - indexed for MEDLINE]

Warrior good finds on the second two studies and I hope they may be of assistance. The first study however is on corticosteriods which are anti-inflamtories derived from or containing cortisone and have nothing to do with anabolic steroids. Although you and many others may know the difference a lot of people do not and lump all steroids into on group.

nflnut regardless of the cause I hope your son's condition is alleviated soon.

Jagdpanther

**king6** · 03-09-2007, 07:02 AM

Originally Posted by jagdpanther

Warrior good finds on the second two studies and I hope they may be of assistance. The first study however is on corticosteriods which are anti-inflamtories derived from or containing cortisone and have nothing to do with anabolic steroids. Although you and many others may know the difference a lot of people do not and lump all steroids into on group.

nflnut regardless of the cause I hope your son's condition is alleviated soon.

Jagdpanther

Agree, the steroids they refer to in that publication are for steroids like prednisone, cortisone, cortisol, and kenalog 10. These steroids do not do the same thing as AAS.

**Warrior** · 03-09-2007, 08:26 AM

Originally Posted by jagdpanther

Warrior good finds on the second two studies and I hope they may be of assistance. The first study however is on corticosteriods which are anti-inflamtories derived from or containing cortisone and have nothing to do with anabolic steroids. Although you and many others may know the difference a lot of people do not and lump all steroids into on group.

nflnut regardless of the cause I hope your son's condition is alleviated soon.

Jagdpanther

Yeah - I just posted that one with corticosteroid highlighted since it was a study done on a cousin of anabolic steroids... referencing high hormone levels in general. But your probably right - prolly better to not confuse the two...

I think what may be the link here is someone with developing mental illness - something that usually takes time to manifest itself into adulthood - could be aggrevated or advanced by supraphyiological doses of androgens at a young age. Did AAS cause the psycotic symptoms? I don't know. And it would be hard for us to draw conclusions in an online discussion group - this is something for a doc to handle, in person. But it would not surprise me at all if this was a teen administering this long, oral-only cycle... teens should not be messin' with this stuff in the first place...

We should find a good TRT fact sheet that MD's use to pre-screen candidates for testerone replacement therapy... it might be a good reference to make as a sticky...

**Maldorf** · 03-09-2007, 10:35 AM

Like everyone else here, I am sorry to hear about your son's condition. I hope things pull together real soon for him and that he is able to get back to how he used to be. Im just thinking that some other substance he took might have caused this. Perhaps it was something like the cotricosteriod (prednisone) that was prescribed or some sort of recreational drug. Most young people of course are very secretive about their recreational drug use.

**jagdpanther** · 03-09-2007, 10:40 AM

Originally Posted by Warrior

I think what may be the link here is someone with developing mental illness - something that usually takes time to manifest itself into adulthood - could be aggrevated or advanced by supraphyiological doses of androgens at a young age.

This seems very plausible to me. I'm not talking about this specific case but in general I can see where some pre-existing illnesses could be advanced not only by supraphyiological levels of androgens but also by the bodies hormonal recations in trying to find a homestassis either during or after a cycle.

Originally Posted by Warrior

Did AAS cause the psycotic symptoms? I don't know. And it would be hard for us to draw conclusions in an online discussion group - this is something for a doc to handle, in person.

100% agree, this requires hands on observations and tests. In addition unless
any two people discussing the issue use a very specific common sub-set of a langue there is a lot of room for misinturpriting sysmptoms.

Originally Posted by Warrior

But it would not surprise me at all if this was a teen administering this long, oral-only cycle... teens should not be messin' with this stuff in the first place....

Teens unfortunately don't realise the possible hormonal ramifications of their actions -it could go way beyond deca dick and/or acne.
Nor do they appreciate how much test and hgh they have pulsing through their system. If my hormone levels would/could have stayed at teen levels I probably would never have looked into AAS.

b cool,

Jagdpanther

**fatback25** · 03-09-2007, 10:45 AM

Originally Posted by nflnut

Our son had taken the injectable Winstrol for I believe a 10 week cycle. Several months after concluding the cycle, he had a manic episode. This happened in October 2006. While the mania is long gone, he has a lingering psychosis for lack of a better term. He did have auditory hallucinations that have dissipated and now he will not leave the house as there is some paranoia about leaving house and seeing people. This is now going on 6 months. We are now seeing a doctor who routinely sends blood and urine to a lab and what I think we've learned is that his neutotransmitters are not as they shoud be. I believe dopamine is somewhat elevated and his norepinephrine is considerably low. We are now taking specific vitamins and amino acids in hopes of normalizing things. I'm hoping someone can relate to our situation and provide another point of view or hopefully a good outcome. Thanks