Shit is messing with my mind. Need some reassurance!

[Atomini]

Hey all, listen up...

The last few days, i've visited people and had them visit me (friends and relatives) who i've not seen for 2 or 3 months, and they always enjoy seeing changes in my physique after a while of not seeing me.

Over the last 14 weeks, i've been cutting to get bodyfat down (I was 20% at 210 when I started; i'm now 15% at 194... sound messed up?). The first 12 of those 14 weeks, I was using the carb cycling method to burn fat off with the ECA stack (and the last 2 weeks i've recently switched over to a steady caloric restriction with using Clenbuterol). The problem was it was my first time ever using carb cycling, and as such, there's a bit of experimentation and tweaking required to see if it suits you. Well, I started off with 3 low carb days and on the 4th day, a high carb day. Did this for about 12 weeks and got down to 15%. What's messed up is that for the first 8 weeks, i'd be dropping fat at the rate of a pound per week. Then suddenly i'd lose like 4 pounds the next week after!! I know for a fact it wasn't water, because I always weighed myself on or after a high carb day (to wait for glycogen replenishment). Then I started worrying about it being muscle. So towards the last couple of weeks, I switched to TWO high days, and 3 low days instead of the 1-3 method.

So anyways, over the last week i've had 3 friends whom I haven't seen in a bit tell me that i'm looking 'smaller'. One of them only yesterday said "you look like you've de-bulked". Another the other day said "you're looking more compact, and less bulkier, like you've lost muscle or something" and I asked him "looks like muscle or fat?" and he says "well, you've lost something". So now i'm worried i've lost a shitload of muscle.

But here's the other messed up part... I haven't lost strength in the gym since I started AT ALL and as a matter of fact, i've continued to gain strength over the last 12 weeks. I usually use strength as a gauge as to whether or not i'm gaining or losing muscle. Secondly, these comments of "de-bulked" and "less bulkier" i'm thinking could be the fat loss itself, due to the fact of coming off a bulk, the fat over the muscle gained on the bulk makes you look... well... 'bulky'... lol.

So now my head is spinning with this. There's no doubt i've lost fat, that's for sure... but at the cost of muscle as well? But my numbers in the gym only keep going up. Wtf? I know it's kinda hard to understand from this description I gave, but is there any way of realling telling what the hell went on over my cut? I figure in any case if I lost muscle, when I jump into my next bulk, muscle memory should kick in and i'll gain it all back plus more. But man... this is nuts.

[MFT81]

DO NOT CHANGE ANYTHING!!!!!

Your right on course, the reason you "Look" smaller to some is that your burning through your glycogen stores, you said that your just as strong but I bet you dont get the same pump as before, well that just the lack of starch and water in your muscles right now,

It happens to everyone, it was really hard for me to cut as well recently cause I felt "anorexic" and looked terriable,

but guess what, when you drop down to below 10% (Which if you continue to do you will) then you start carbing up, you'll look huge,

So what the hell are we supposed to do in the mean time? a little trick that has worked for me is I cycle on a good creatine, It gives me a fuller apearance while maintaing strenght and a good pump during workouts while I maniuplate carbs and increase cardio.

its all in your head, but its simply a means to an end, keep on the course your fine.

[Chronic]

Can we see a diet with macros?

You lost 14lbs body weight


You had 42lbs of fat @ 210 bodyweight
You now have 29lbs of fat @ 194 bodyweight

42lbs-29lbs= 13lbs

Sounds like you're on the right track to me.

[Atomini]

Can we see a diet with macros?

You lost 14lbs body weight


You had 42lbs of fat @ 210 bodyweight
You now have 29lbs of fat @ 194 bodyweight

42lbs-29lbs= 13lbs

Sounds like you're on the right track to me.

Yup, okay. First off, i'll list what I was doing while I was carb cycling, and then i'll put down what i'm currently doing. Here's the carb cycling diet:

HIGH CARB DAYS:

Meal 1 - 1 pack of quick oats mixed with 2 scoops whey protein in milk (67g protein, 45g carbs, 5g fat)

Meal 2 - 4 egg whites cooked with cheese (in a pan with oilve oil), 2 slices of whole grain bread, 1/2 cup of whole oats cooked (36g protein, 60g carbs, 5g fat)

Meal 3 - 1 slice whole gain bread with some grilled chicken (35g protein, 20g carbs)

Meal 4 - Post-workout shake, which is 2 scoops of whey with malto and dextrose. NOTE: On non-workout days I wouldn't be having the malto and dextrose, so you can count the carbs out on non-workout days! (50g protein, 82g carbs)

Meal 5 - Steak or chicken or salmon with a salad and potatos (40g protein, 20g carbs)

Meal 6 - 2 scoops whey protein in milk and two fish oil capsuls (67g protein, 24g carbs, 7g fat)

TOTALS
PROTEIN: 295g
CARBS: 251g
FATS: 17g

On a low-carb day, it's generally the EXACT same thing, only with all of the carbs removed except for the carbs included in the first meal of the day (all shakes are with water on these days instead of milk). If the low carb day falls on a workout day, I still use the malto and dextrose but I just cut the amounts in half.

What I am currently doing is a steady caloric restriction. So far I have cut out ALL breads and anything with yeast and replaced it with oats and other complex carbs. Here is the diet:

Meal 1 - 1 pack of quick oats mixed with 2 scoops whey protein in milk (67g protein, 45g carbs, 5g fat)

Meal 2 - 4 egg whites cooked with cheese (in a pan with oilve oil), 1/2 cup of whole oats cooked (36g protein, 30g carbs, 5g fat)

Meal 3 - 1/2 cup of whole coats cooked, with some grilled chicken (35g protein, 30g carbs)

Meal 4 - Post-workout shake, which is 2 scoops of whey with malto and dextrose. NOTE: On non-workout days I wouldn't be having the malto and dextrose, so you can count the carbs out on non-workout days! (50g protein, 82g carbs)

Meal 5 - Steak or chicken or salmon with a salad and sweet potatos or yams (40g protein, 20g carbs)

Meal 6 - 2 scoops whey protein in milk and two fish oil capsuls (67g protein, 24g carbs, 7g fat)

TOTALS
PROTEIN: 295g
CARBS: 231g
FATS: 17g


MFT81, that was some great advice, bro. Check out my diet and tell me what you think. THere's still some things to go over and determine. Thanks for all the help, guys.

[MFT81]

im konfused dude, you said you do the exact same thing but all the carbs are still there and your total is only diff by like 20 grams of carbs,

Im leaving right now, ill check it out later and give u some better advice.

[timtim]

thats not really carb cycling. its a 3 to 1 cycle. carb cycling requires low, medium, and high days. 3 low days in a row is alot if your not really sure what your doing. especially with some of your food choices. the bread, milk, potatoes, and cheese arent good dieting choices. the sugar in the milk is a killer as well as the potatoes.

you might want to tweak your carb cycling plan, move into something else.

maybe a :
low
medium
low
high
low
low
medium/high

just an idea. the milk is crap though. definately a poor sugar source.

[Atomini]

im konfused dude, you said you do the exact same thing but all the carbs are still there and your total is only diff by like 20 grams of carbs,

Im leaving right now, ill check it out later and give u some better advice.

Yeah it's generally the same thing. I panicked and thought I was losing muscle, so thats why I switched to what i'm doing right now until I can find out something better. Hence why i'm trying to get some good advice on here.

Timtim, any ideas for what foods to do in the tweak? More specifically, i'm wondering how many grams per day is considered a medium day to you, or a low day, or a high day? And I thought milk has a slow digesting carb source in it? I read that somewhere a loooong time ago. Must have been bullshit then, because most people are saying otherwise.

[Beefkake31]

Your fat intake is too low bump it up to 60-80 grams at least.

[timtim]

Yeah it's generally the same thing. I panicked and thought I was losing muscle, so thats why I switched to what i'm doing right now until I can find out something better. Hence why i'm trying to get some good advice on here.

Timtim, any ideas for what foods to do in the tweak? More specifically, i'm wondering how many grams per day is considered a medium day to you, or a low day, or a high day? And I thought milk has a slow digesting carb source in it? I read that somewhere a loooong time ago. Must have been bullshit then, because most people are saying otherwise.

yea, keep your carbs to only oats, yams/sweet potatoes, and brown rice. these are completely unprocessed foods.

low days id hit 50 g of carbs, moderate 125, and high 200 to 250.

milk is garbage man, drop it completely.

[timtim]

Your fat intake is too low bump it up to 60-80 grams at least.

actually, high fat levels can impede fat lose when not on a ckd. if anything, add more protein. with carbs in the diet, your not going to be burning fat with 540 to 720 calories a day from fat.

[Beefkake31]

actually, high fat levels can impede fat lose when not on a ckd. if anything, add more protein. with carbs in the diet, your not going to be burning fat with 540 to 720 calories a day from fat.

Actually you are very wrong so please do not give this advice to others. These are poly and mono unsaturated fats and are essential. You need to do a lot of reading up. The good fats have a lot of benefits and no 10 mg a day is not enough.

[*Narkissos*]

Firstly...
Your macros are impossible.

There's no way you're consuming only 17 grams of fat.

This alone leads me to the conclusion that your entire macro representation is skewed.

Meal 1 - 1 pack of quick oats mixed with 2 scoops whey protein in milk (67g protein, 45g carbs, 5g fat)

Meal 2 - 4 egg whites cooked with cheese (in a pan with oilve oil), 2 slices of whole grain bread, 1/2 cup of whole oats cooked (36g protein, 60g carbs, 5g fat)

Meal 3 - 1 slice whole gain bread with some grilled chicken (35g protein, 20g carbs)

Meals 2 + 3 contain fats you're not listing.

Meal 4 - Post-workout shake, which is 2 scoops of whey with malto and dextrose. NOTE: On non-workout days I wouldn't be having the malto and dextrose, so you can count the carbs out on non-workout days! (50g protein, 82g carbs)

Meal 5 - Steak or chicken or salmon with a salad and potatos (40g protein, 20g carbs)

All of the three protein sources above come with added fat.

.. salmon and steak being relatively 'high'

So again.. your macros are off.

Meal 6 - 2 scoops whey protein in milk and two fish oil capsuls (67g protein, 24g carbs, 7g fat)

TOTALS
PROTEIN: 295g
CARBS: 251g
FATS: 17g

...

On a low-carb day, it's generally the EXACT same thing, only with all of the carbs removed except for the carbs included in the first meal of the day (all shakes are with water on these days instead of milk). If the low carb day falls on a workout day, I still use the malto and dextrose but I just cut the amounts in half.

What I am currently doing is a steady caloric restriction. So far I have cut out ALL breads and anything with yeast and replaced it with oats and other complex carbs. Here is the diet:

Meal 1 - 1 pack of quick oats mixed with 2 scoops whey protein in milk (67g protein, 45g carbs, 5g fat)

Meal 2 - 4 egg whites cooked with cheese (in a pan with oilve oil), 1/2 cup of whole oats cooked (36g protein, 30g carbs, 5g fat)

Meal 3 - 1/2 cup of whole coats cooked, with some grilled chicken (35g protein, 30g carbs)

Meal 4 - Post-workout shake, which is 2 scoops of whey with malto and dextrose. NOTE: On non-workout days I wouldn't be having the malto and dextrose, so you can count the carbs out on non-workout days! (50g protein, 82g carbs)

Meal 5 - Steak or chicken or salmon with a salad and sweet potatos or yams (40g protein, 20g carbs)

Meal 6 - 2 scoops whey protein in milk and two fish oil capsuls (67g protein, 24g carbs, 7g fat)

TOTALS
PROTEIN: 295g
CARBS: 231g

How is this 'low-carb'?

FATS: 17g

And again.. impossible.

-Narkissos

[*Narkissos*]

Your statement:

Your fat intake is too low bump it up to 60-80 grams at least.

Tim's response:

actually, high fat levels can impede fat lose when not on a ckd. if anything, add more protein. with carbs in the diet, your not going to be burning fat with 540 to 720 calories a day from fat.

Your response:

Actually you are very wrong so please do not give this advice to others. These are poly and mono unsaturated fats and are essential. You need to do a lot of reading up. The good fats have a lot of benefits and no 10 mg a day is not enough.

Actually you're both wrong.

Before you tell someone not to give advice... you should have your OWN advice right.

The poster is: 194 lbs @ 15% bodyfat.

His current kcal intake is: ['High' day] 2337 (by his misplaced estimate)

Which is right around maintenance (cardio inclusive) for his LBM.

So to tell generically to 'up fats' or 'up protein' is wrong... as he's already within his kcal threshold.

What is 'correct' is that he needs to find the proper macronutrient ratio.

-Narkissos

[*Narkissos*]

So anyways, over the last week i've had 3 friends whom I haven't seen in a bit tell me that i'm looking 'smaller'. One of them only yesterday said "you look like you've de-bulked". Another the other day said "you're looking more compact, and less bulkier, like you've lost muscle or something" and I asked him "looks like muscle or fat?" and he says "well, you've lost something". So now i'm worried i've lost a shitload of muscle.

Unless your 'friends' are also certified personal trainers.. who also happened to measure your body composition each time they saw you.. why would their uneducated opinions matter?

So now my head is spinning with this. There's no doubt i've lost fat, that's for sure... but at the cost of muscle as well? But my numbers in the gym only keep going up. Wtf? I know it's kinda hard to understand from this description I gave, but is there any way of realling telling what the hell went on over my cut? I figure in any case if I lost muscle, when I jump into my next bulk, muscle memory should kick in and i'll gain it all back plus more. But man... this is nuts.

And if your numbers are going up.. what's the problem?

Get your bodyfat percentage tested and go by that.

Stop messing around with 3rd party critiques... as it's obviously confusing you

[Ajc330]

I <3 Narkissos

[Mike Dura]

I definately agree with nark. In general, the fear of getting small is something you gotta surmount if you're going to get ripped. In my experience, the transition from off-season to onseason is one in which you go from a bulky, puffy rounded look (big) to flattening out and losing water and muscle to looking small. Then when you get your bodyfat low enough, all this vascularity starts exploding and you can see striations. Then, even though you've lost a half inch to an inch off your arms, you actually appear larger 20 pounds lighter and I've heard people tell me, "you're getting bigger" out of clothes and "you're getting smaller" in clothes. The key thing, is to remain detached through the process. Don't let people who are innocent to the process tell you "where it's at."

Here's some reasurance: No matter what, muscle has memory so think RIPPED and keep at it. Use the guideline of no more than 3 pounds of weight loss a week and it's all good. You can always do what Frank Zane did which was keep leaning down and build up (gain weight) a week or two before the show. This is where "muscle memory" can be exploited. I never worry too much about numbers or strength. The only tool I need is a mirror. This is bodybuilding afterall.

Unless your 'friends' are also certified personal trainers.. who also happened to measure your body composition each time they saw you.. why would their uneducated opinions matter?



And if your numbers are going up.. what's the problem?

Get your bodyfat percentage tested and go by that.

Stop messing around with 3rd party critiques... as it's obviously confusing you

[timtim]

Actually you are very wrong so please do not give this advice to others. These are poly and mono unsaturated fats and are essential. You need to do a lot of reading up. The good fats have a lot of benefits and no 10 mg a day is not enough.

i wasnt saying you were wrong. i was saying on a non ckd diet, high fat combined with high carb levels arent the best environment for fat loss and their not. but thanks for the bitchy attitude beefcake, your attitude fits your faggoty ass handle. good for you.

[Beefkake31]

i wasnt saying you were wrong. i was saying on a non ckd diet, high fat combined with high carb levels arent the best environment for fat loss and their not. but thanks for the bitchy attitude beefcake, your attitude fits your faggoty ass handle. good for you.

Hmm I didn't know saying "please do not give that advice" was having a bitchy attitude. And good job on the flaming..... TIMTIM...hmm, I'm not going to even touch that one. And what I described is not high fat so please again read up. 60-80 grams of essential fats that are good for you is not high.

[Beefkake31]

Your statement:

Tim's response:

Your response:


Actually you're both wrong.

Before you tell someone not to give advice... you should have your OWN advice right.

The poster is: 194 lbs @ 15% bodyfat.

His current kcal intake is: ['High' day] 2337 (by his misplaced estimate)

Which is right around maintenance (cardio inclusive) for his LBM.

So to tell generically to 'up fats' or 'up protein' is wrong... as he's already within his kcal threshold.

What is 'correct' is that he needs to find the proper macronutrient ratio.

-Narkissos

No actually I was not wrong, I don't know where you are getting that from Nark. To give generic advice is one thing but to be completely wrong is another and the latter I was not. You are right he is right around maintenence ***ending on his activity but I should have studied his macros and helped him out more. But to tell him he needs more than 17 grams of good fat was not WRONG.

[*Narkissos*]

No actually I was not wrong, I don't know where you are getting that from Nark. To give generic advice is one thing but to be completely wrong is another and the latter I was not. You are right he is right around maintenence ***ending on his activity but I should have studied his macros and helped him out more. But to tell him he needs more than 17 grams of good fat was not WRONG.

Yes... you are wrong.

There is no 'almost right'.. or 'nearly wrong'.

You're either wrong.. or you aren't.

If your advice pertained to working out his maintenance...and then alloting a specific ratio of kcals to fat.. that'd be different.

60-80 grams fat is 540-720 kcals.

Your 'advice' calls for a generic increase of: 387- 567 kcals.

To tell some who's cutting to generically increase kcals is ridiculous.

The fact that you obviously did not sit down and calculate/approximate his BMR before making the 'contribution' further compounds the matter.

Then you have the gall to tell another member that he shouldn't give advice.

wow.

-Narkissos

[*Narkissos*]

60-80 grams of essential fats that are good for you is not high.

There's that annoying catch phrase.

The mantra of fat people around the world.

"I eat healthy"

"This stuff is good for you"

The bottomline however is anything in excess isn't.

'Excess' is relative to the individual

'Excess' in this is instance, is relative to the individual's maintenance kcals..

'Good for you' does not translate to be equivalent to 'Optimal'.

-Narkissos

[*Narkissos*]

And before it seems that i'm being one-sided in my retort... Here's a bit more:

yea, keep your carbs to only oats, yams/sweet potatoes, and brown rice. these are completely unprocessed foods.

Agreed.

milk is garbage man, drop it completely.

Agreed.

low days id hit 50 g of carbs, moderate 125, and high 200 to 250.

Generic

You guys and your numbers.

'low'; 'medium'; 'high'... etc., are all relative to the individual.

For one body-type, 250 is 'low'.

My advice?

Calculate your BMR.. that's the first thing.

Then try .75-1 gr of carbs per lb of bodyweight... That's your mid range.

See if you 'flatten out' or 'stay full' at the range.

Over the course of two weeks, try different carb ranges in 50 gr increments.

..and at least 3 days for each increment.

Log it all...so you'll have documentation to work from.

e.g.

The 200 lb male:

mid-range: 150-200 gr carbs (.75...1*[lb bodyweight])

Try 3 days at the high end of the spectrum (200 gr)
3 days at 150 gr
3 days at 100 gr
3 days at 250 gr

etc.

Noting how long it takes you to 'fill out'.. and conversely, at which point (i.e. how low you can go carb-wise before) your performance in the gym drops.

For me that's 150 grams.

Find your threshold.

-Narkissos

[*Narkissos*]

i wasnt saying you were wrong. i was saying on a non ckd diet, high fat combined with high carb levels arent the best environment for fat loss and their not. but thanks for the bitchy attitude beefcake, your attitude fits your faggoty ass handle. good for you.

Consider this your only warning.

If you have an intelligent rebuttal..fine.

Personal attacks will not be tolerated.

-Narkissos

[Beefkake31]

Yes... you are wrong.

There is no 'almost right'.. or 'nearly wrong'.

You're either wrong.. or you aren't.

If your advice pertained to working out his maintenance...and then alloting a specific ratio of kcals to fat.. that'd be different.

60-80 grams fat is 540-720 kcals.

Your 'advice' calls for a generic increase of: 387- 567 kcals.

To tell some who's cutting to generically increase kcals is ridiculous.

The fact that you obviously did not sit down and calculate/approximate his BMR before making the 'contribution' further compounds the matter.
-Narkissos

The way you are putting it of course, I would say I am wrong too but you're looking at it from a different point of view. I tell the guy he needs to up his fat intake to AT LEAST 60-80 grams of EFA's. And as generic as that may have seemed I actually did calculate his weight and the starting minumum was 60-80 g's AT THE VERY LEAST. So again, I may not have calculated everything else FOR HIM but at least him knowing he needs to up the fat (whether he calculated it right himself or not, at least just him knowing that) to a level where for his weight and goal I'm sure you would agree that 80 g was not a bad suggestion. But let me say again, yes I could have been more specific and I AGREE with you on that. Sometimes you are browsing the forum and you don't have time but you want to help someone out so you quickly write something since no one else had so that is why I did. There are many times where I see a mod or vet just use a quick "generic 1 liner", I see it at least once a day. So again, I was only trying to help the guy not confuse him or not help him enough. But I will try to be more specific next time because I actually agree with you, because generic answers usually don't help most of the time.

Then you have the gall to tell another member that he shouldn't give advice.

wow.

-Narkissos

And again, if a member thinks no fat or low fat (10-20 g) is enough and anymore is bad then I don't see what was wrong with telling that member not to give advice about that. That would be really unhealthy too by the way.

What I said might have been generic but it wasn't wrong and that is why I had the gall to say that because his was in my opinion.

[Beefkake31]

There's that annoying catch phrase.

The mantra of fat people around the world.

"I eat healthy"

"This stuff is good for you"

The bottomline however is anything in excess isn't.

'Excess' is relative to the individual

'Excess' in this is instance, is relative to the individual's maintenance kcals..

-Narkissos

I never said anything in excess is good for you and never was anything close to being in excess.
And yes in this instance, relative to this individual the numbers I gave 60-80 g of fat (at minumum) was not wrong.

'Good for you' does not translate to be equivalent to 'Optimal'.
-Narkissos

Again I don't know what all this has to do with what I said and you are taking it too far and just trying to pick at every small thing. Would you rather I have said "60-80 mg of EFA's are "optimal" for you instead of "good for you"?

[Beefkake31]

Consider this your only warning.

If you have an intelligent rebuttal..fine.

Personal attacks will not be tolerated.

-Narkissos

I don't know what his problem was, it's not like I cussed him out.

[Atomini]

Whoa this thread really exploded just when I thought it was going to die out!

Anyways...

Nark, thanks for all the amazing advice. And yeah, I didn't include fat macros from the meals with steak, salmon, chicken, etc. due to the fact that I really can't tell how many grams of fat is in a slab of salmon, or a 12 ounce steak or something like that. So yeah, you're right... I very well could be intaking more than 17g of fat per day. And with all the discussion over fats, do I really need to add more? As said earlier, I didn't count fats that were in several meals, so i'm going to keep it as-is until I can figure out how many fats are in there.

And i'm definitely thinking of modifying my carb cycle. I'll certainly try and find my 'threshold' over the next few weeks as per Nark's suggestion. Thanks for all the great advice.

[timtim]

Atomini, this is from DBBT at EF, good article to look at, pretty much the same advice i gave you, just an outline to follow.


Carb's... And Carb Cycling For Fat Loss
by Tim Wescott

When dieting for a bodybuilding contest, I use an arsenal of weapons to lose unsightly excess body fat. One of the dietary procedures I institute, is to cycle my carbs. Carbohydrates are used as energy by the body, they fuel our workouts, as well as providing ample fuel to be used throughout the course of the day.

Ingesting carbs also replenishes our glucose and glycogen stores to prevent fatigue. Carb cycling allows you to still eat carbs from clean sources, without adding body fat, and cycling enables you to better utilize fat for burning as fuel, as opposed to burning carbs and muscle tissue for fuel.

Are Carbs The Evil Enemy ??

Carbs are not the evil villian the media makes them out to be. Improper carb timing can however, cause these carbs to be stored as fat.

Carbs are not essential to the body, but they make dieting, and eating in general, a lot easier and more pleasurable... as long as the carbs are from the proper sources. Carbs get a bad rap in the news lately, due to people jumping on the proverbial bandwagon to make a buck off the latest trend in dieting.... low carbs!

There are tons of low carb foods hitting the grocery stores daily, everything from bread, to potato chips, can now be found with a low carb label.

A few years back it was all about bashing fats....remember??

What will it be next year....protein? We'll just have to wait and see I guess, but they'll think of something.

Junk Carbs:

Carbohydrates eaten in excess, or eaten at the wrong times, can help to add adipose tissue to the body, but they are not a bad thing if incorporated into a diet properly.

Eat the majority of your carbs early in the day and at the post-workout meal, tapering off on them as the day goes on. Never eat carbs late at night, opt for protein instead. Sugar laden junk foods are always bad, and they are comprised mostly of carbs, and fat.

In turn, they should have no place in a serious bodybuilders diet. If people eliminated, or cut down on junk food alone, they would lose a lot of weight, and look and feel much better for it. Quitting junk food however, is usually too much to ask for most people. Most junk food is simply calorie dense garbage, totally devoid of any nutrients.

When I devise a diet for a trainee ,the first step I implement is to have them cut back on junk gradually, until it is totally eliminated from the diet, except for the rare occasional treat.

Once it's gone from the diet, it's usually not thought about again, except for the occasional craving. Eating junk food is a conditioned thing that can, and should be eliminated. In this article I will outline a plan that still allows you to eat healthy amounts of good carbs, and still lose fat in the process.

As I mentioned earlier, it's not carbs that are the villain, but rather the type of carbs eaten, and the specific times that they are ingested.

If you are indulging in junk food on a daily basis, then you will most likely get fatter. Another problem is eating carbs too close to bedtime, when your activity and expenditure of energy is lessened. This is not a mystery, and all that's needed by the person looking to lose body fat is a lifestyle change !!

Cut down on eating the crap, and you'll be well on your way to better health, increased energy, and a leaner body.

The Proper Attitude:

When talking to bodybuilder's and other's, that want to lose fat, or increase muscular definition for competition purposes, I often find a trend in their thinking that they can still eat things in moderate portions that are usually considered taboo, while on most diets.

Terms like "re-feed","cheat meal,"and "cheat day," almost always come up. These ideas can be used to your advantage, but in my opinion, you should wait until you are pretty close to achieving your desired body fat % goals before even thinking about them at all. Yes folks, I'm an "old school" type of guy who will tell you right off the bat, that you MUST make some sacrifices, and give up all negative eating habits to achieve these goals if you want to succeed in losing fat or winning a contest!!

I typically diet down for bodybuilding contests achieving approximately 3 - 5% body fat. Did I accomplish this while cheating and eating the occasional junk treat? My answer is a resounding NO. I suffered a bit here and there, but once I flip the switch in my mind to eat "clean" I do just that.

There can be no half measures.

You must get into the proper mindset and stay completely focused on achieving your goals, if you screw around and cheat once, you will repeat this cheating again and again. I know this from early attempts at getting cut-up, and from experiences learned from training my clients.

Remain steadfast on your mission to getting lean, and you most definitely will.

Cycling Carbs:

What we do when we cycle carbs in the manner that I advise, is to have three low carb days, followed by two higher carb days, to aid in recovery, and to replenish glycogen. This gives us just the right amount of carbs to be used as fuel without becoming an excessive amount.

Always use carbs from clean foods not junk foods of course. The most important thing about carb cycling, in my opinion, is too never go too high throughout the diet, except for the latter stages, and only if necessary. We'll discuss this aspect of the diet later in this article!

What I recommend as a starting point, to determine just how many carbs you should eat on your highest day, is to eat 1 to 1.5 grams of carbs per pound of bodyweight. Start out using the latter number and adjust according to your results.

I might add that it is vital to keep a nutrition journal when cycling carbs to be able to chart progress and make adjustments during the diet. This takes the guesswork out of dieting, and can also be looked back upon in the future to see how the body responded to certain tactics, and is an invaluable tool.

NOTE: Do not count fibrous vegetables into your total carb count for the day. They are low in calories and carbs and are a good source of fiber and do not count in the scheme of things while carb cycling. Only count starchy complex carbs.

Some tweaking will of course be necessary for most, as some of us are a bit more "carb sensitive" than others. Activity level, training intensity level, age, as well as sex, will determine how much you will need to adjust things, but as a rule I have found that 200 grams of carbs as your highest amount, is a good place to start.

After a time you can decide whether you want to raise them a bit, or lower them, based on your results, and your body's feedback. It is a good practice to try this technique well in advance of your contest to sort of "learn" your body, and how it responds to this procedure.

Below is an example of my 5 day carb cycling method using 200 grams of carbs as the highest amount on a high day.

Day-1)150 grams

Day-2)100 grams

Day-3) 50 grams

Day-4)125 grams

Day-5)200 grams

Repeat cycle as written, throughout the course of the diet.

Essentially what I do is drop 50 grams of carbs over the course of the first 3 days, then increase by 75 grams, for the next two days. Some people prefer to raise fat intake on the lower carb days, or to increase fats on their off training days, to make up for the lost calories on the lower carb days.

You can do this if you choose to, but I find it interferes with the fat burning process as fat is a calorie dense macronutrient that is needed by the body, but builds no muscle.

I also believe that without the fat increase you will burn more fat as fuel on the low carb days, especially when training hard, dieting and doing cardiovascular workouts. Besides as far as calories go, protein and carbs are not calorie dense and you must be in a calorie deficit to lose body fat for a lengthy period of time such as a 16 week contest prep diet or just a fat loss diet for the fitness enthusiast, no matter if he or she competes or not.

Reaching A Plateau:

Eventually, you will more than likely reach a fat burning plateau, and this is the time where we can implement a "tweak" in the cycle plan. The body is resistant to change and it will eventually adapt to any stressors put upon it so after a time you may stop burning fat as fuel.

This is a good time to suddenly eat 3-4 good high carb days in a row ,or to simply eat a "cheat" meal or have a "cheat" day, just to trip up the metabolism, and get it jumpstarted so to speak, thus enabling the fat burning process to resume.

Another way you can also accomplish this is to go to zero carbs for 3 days and 3 days only. This will accomplish the same thing as the 3-4 high carb days or the "cheats". This is the only time to take fibrous vegetables into consideration, as no carbs whatsoever should be ingested during the 3 zero carb days.

Do not stay at zero carbs for any longer than 3 days, and never go below 50 carbs as your lowest amount, throughout the entire length of the diet other than the occasional zero carb 3 day period. Any lower, and the brain suffers, and thinking becomes cloudy, as the brain needs a certain amount of carbs to function optimally.

Complex Carbs:

These are the best sources of clean carbs to use when dieting in general, and when cycling carbs:

Baked Potatoes
Yams
Sweet Potatoes
Brown Rice
Oatmeal
Cream Of Wheat
Grits

I do not eat bread of any kind, or dairy products when dieting, and I recommend that you don't either, to help optimize fat burning.

The only time to eat simple carbs other than vegetables is at the post-workout meal when you should take in 50 grams of dextrose with a whey protein shake immediately after training.

You do add these carbs from dextrose into your daily total, because even though they are utilized efficiently by the body at the post-workout feeding, they are still carbs, and should count towards your total for the day.

Don`t worry about the glycemic index of the foods ,but instead be more concerned with total carbs ingested for the day. It should never be too high!!

I also recommend HIIT cardio while dieting, and a high protein intake throughout the diet, as this will help to ensure that you retain the hard earned muscle that you've garnered from your training.

I hope this article helps you out in your quest for a better physique, and better health, via a lean muscular body.

GOOD LUCK AND TRAIN HARD!

[timtim]

And before it seems that i'm being one-sided in my retort... Here's a bit more:



Agreed.



Agreed.



Generic

You guys and your numbers.

'low'; 'medium'; 'high'... etc., are all relative to the individual.

For one body-type, 250 is 'low'.

My advice?

Calculate your BMR.. that's the first thing.

Then try .75-1 gr of carbs per lb of bodyweight... That's your mid range.

See if you 'flatten out' or 'stay full' at the range.

Over the course of two weeks, try different carb ranges in 50 gr increments.

..and at least 3 days for each increment.

Log it all...so you'll have documentation to work from.

e.g.

The 200 lb male:

mid-range: 150-200 gr carbs (.75...1*[lb bodyweight])

Try 3 days at the high end of the spectrum (200 gr)
3 days at 150 gr
3 days at 100 gr
3 days at 250 gr

etc.

Noting how long it takes you to 'fill out'.. and conversely, at which point (i.e. how low you can go carb-wise before) your performance in the gym drops.

For me that's 150 grams.

Find your threshold.

-Narkissos

Nark, of course my numbers were generic. i wasnt going to do the whole diet here for the guy, i just gave a good outline and thats all. i wasnt aware to be correct that i had to crunch all the numbers and come up with an exact formula. the information i gave was solid and was good, not exact but a good outline.

honestly, i didnt even look at the guys macros and calories, just what he was looking to do with the carbs. thats where the recommendations came from.

my question: am i missing something? i never knew high fat and high carbs led to an ideal fat burning diet. here is where my recommendation of upping protein over fat came in. the extra protein, when in a caloric deficit, will help maintain the nitrogen balance and ensure a pool of aminos. i dont think adding in extra fat when carbs are cycled will be the best for fat burning. i take this from trial and error experience. it didnt work for me nor many of the people i know.

his macros are protein at 300 (rounded up) so heres 1200 calories, carbs at 231 to 251, so say 250, thats 1000 calories. so he's at 2200 calories a day and weighs 195. adding in 50 grams of protein is 200 extra calories. adding in 60 grams of fat is 540 calories and 80 is 720. just looking at the number of calories, my advice wasnt far off and i didnt even look at these numbers before.

next time i'll pay closer attention but im not going to have someone tell me not to ever give advice when i wasnt even disagreeing with the guy, just making a point that wasnt the same as his.

[Georgie]

Consider this your only warning.

If you have an intelligent rebuttal..fine.

Personal attacks will not be tolerated.

-Narkissos

Unbelievable with the personal attacks, no cause fror that. Nark, your advice sounds right on and to the poster I suggest you listen. After just have been cutting for my first contest I can say the advice Nark gave sounds pretty on the money. "'low'; 'medium'; 'high'... etc., are all relative to the individual." This is very true. You need to experiment around a bit to see what works for you. "What is 'correct' is that he needs to find the proper macronutrient ratio <for his individual self." This is so true. For me carbs and fats had to be kept very low in order to personally work for me. "'Excess' is relative to the individual "'Excess' in this is instance, is relative to the individual's maintenance kcals.. 'Good for you' does not translate to be equivalent to 'Optimal'." I think Nark gave good advice and I can speak from perosnal experience. Just experiment a bit and find out what works best for you. I don't believe you are getting ready for a contest unless I missed that part, so you have the luxury of experimentation.

[*Narkissos*]

'Good for you' does not translate to be equivalent to 'Optimal'."

This is an important point imo.

I think Nark gave good advice and I can speak from perosnal experience. Just experiment a bit and find out what works best for you. I don't believe you are getting ready for a contest unless I missed that part, so you have the luxury of experimentation.

Honestly i don't think anyone on the thread gave 'bad' advice.

...just incomplete advice.

Like the above quote denotes: "Good"/"bad" are not equivalent to 'optimal'.

It honestly does not take much more time to calculate a definitive answers than it take to type up a generic answer..that's why i never give generic answers.

That is... in my humble opinion.

Of course this is no flame to any specific member.

Rather, this is with reference to anyone (Mod, Vet, Regular member alike)

Remember... most people that come here have NO idea what direction to go in with regard to diet or working out.

Keep that in mind when giving out advice.

Thanks

-Narkissos

[s00noma]

So Nark, do you agree that aiming for say a 15-20% fat ratio in your diet is more beneficial than 5-10%?

As you said before, the op's fat percentage is obviously higher than listed, and id be willing to guess he is actually in this 15-20% range.

From the reading I have done on this board, it is not good to drop down too low on fats in a cutting diet. Would you agree or disagree?

How high is too high, how low is too low? [generally speaking, i know everyone is different]

[*Narkissos*]

So Nark, do you agree that aiming for say a 15-20% fat ratio in your diet is more beneficial than 5-10%?

Yes.

From the reading I have done on this board, it is not good to drop down too low on fats in a cutting diet. Would you agree or disagree?

http://forums.steroid.com/showthread.php?t=294512

I would tentatively agree.

I find that too much emphasis is placed on any one specific macronutrient..rather than the interaction between each of them.

That being said, cutting diets which are 'low-fat' can and do work.

I've found however, that their threshold for desireable results decreases the longer they're run.

My previous experiements with very low-fat diets have very common factors.

After a set amount of time on these diets, i get flustered and tired.. my skin loses luster. My musculature looks 'tired', my joints hurt etc...

The addition of fats at this point reverses these afflictions.

This, among other things, cements the role of fats in my mind.

How high is too high, how low is too low? [generally speaking, i know everyone is different]

In my opinion, 'optimal' is 20% of total caloric intake.

'Too-low' is 10% and under.

-N

[s00noma]

^^^Very well said, thanks a lot man.

[*Narkissos*]

^^np.

bump for further input.

-N

[Atomini]

Hey Nark, is there any way of telling how many grams of fats would be in a piece of fish or steak? Like I said before, I really can't tell how many grams of fat is in a slab of salmon, or a 12 ounce steak or something like that. So at the end of the day, I really don't have a very accurate log of how much fat i'm getting into my system per day.

[*Narkissos*]

Hey Nark, is there any way of telling how many grams of fats would be in a piece of fish or steak? Like I said before, I really can't tell how many grams of fat is in a slab of salmon, or a 12 ounce steak or something like that. So at the end of the day, I really don't have a very accurate log of how much fat i'm getting into my system per day.

http://www.calorie-count.com/ + a scale + a calculator

-N

[Atomini]

Excellent, thanks. Scales are cheap. I can't believe I haven't had one all these years.