New Member
Hey all, been researching for a while and decided im ready too run my first cycle. Here is what i am planning
Cycle
W 1-10 Test C 500mg/week
W 1 adex .25mg/daily
W 2-12 adex .25mg/EOD
PCT
W 13 adex .25mg/EOD Clomid 200mg/daily
W 14 adex .25mg/ETD Clomid 150mg/daily
W 15 Clomid 100mg/daily
W 16 Clomid 50mg/daily
How does this look? I am not 100% sure whether i will be running test C or E yet, either way it will be dosed at 500mcg p/w.
How does this look for my first cycle?
The Over Analyzing Nattabolic
IMO run the test 4 weeks longer. do a 7 weeks PCT use Nolva 20mg ed for PCT and Aromasin. and u need letro on hand during cycle just incase of gyno armidex isnt needed unless your gyno prone or u exp sides
Borderline Personality
Stats please?
Associate Member
correct me if im wrong but, having adex on hand should be sufficient for gyno. unless like you said he is gyno prone, then take it on cycle. can never be too safe but I think letro is probably overkill for this 'light' of a cycle
Member
Let's see your stats bro!
Here's my opinion, but post your stats to get better replies!
I'd run the test either 12 or 14 weeks and the dose should be 250mg not mcg every 3.5d...
Letro on hand is a good idea just in case, but adex will likely be adequate as well for this cycle...
As far as pct goes, i like:
nolva 20mg/ed wk 1-4
clomid 50mg/ed wk 1-2
clomid 25mg/ed wk 3-4
I think you'd be alright to run the nolva a couple weeks longer if needed
Also, depending on which test ester you use will determine when to start pct.. For test e, wait 14 days after last injection before starting pct and test c 18 days
Last edited by fit4ever180; 10-10-2008 at 05:02 PM.
Productive Member
Agreed....Stats please.Originally Posted by ErnstHatAngst
The Over Analyzing Nattabolic
i mean if he develops any gyno letro would be the one to have. As far as keeping sides down "if needed" use Armidex
AR's ORIGINAL ANABOLIC OUTLAW~ [RIP-8/20/11]
Your cycle is ok...10 weeks will yield good gains providing your diet is good. The adex I would use only if needed at first sign of gyno....for this simple cycle [email protected] ed for 4 weeks and nolva 20mg;s ed for 4 weeks should be enough. I don't like clomid for the simple reason that it gives me vision problems ...but thats just me. Good luck and get huge!! lol
The Over Analyzing Nattabolic
i agree with inky except i add 2-4 weeks to the cycle
Associate Member
^^^Yes
Post Cycle Extraordinaire~GOT PCT?
Nice job fellas... Good advice!
The Over Analyzing Nattabolic
never even cycled just knew what everyone was going to tell him lol
New Member
Ahh shit, i copy and pasted that from a word doc where that iv'e used to work everything out in, and yeah i laready decided too run the test for 12 weeks instead of 10.
As for stat's 23 y.o. 200lb's 6'1'
Training for 4 years natural, bf% around 14%.
Last edited by coast; 10-10-2008 at 06:35 PM.
New Member
So too run the test cycle for 12 weeks, i would require 6000mg fo test and for pct 1050mg of clomid yeah?
And also have the armidex on hand incase of gyno rather than run it straight through?
Post Cycle Extraordinaire~GOT PCT?
Correct...
That adds up to
12 weeks of Test @ 500mgs EW
and 1050mgs of Clomid adds up to
50mgs ED for the first two weeks, and 25mgs ED for the last two weeks.
So to put it all together for you
Test E 250mgs 2xW/ wk 1-12
Nolva 20mg/ed wk 1-4
Clomid 50mg/ed wk 1-2
Clomid 25mg/ed wk 3-4
AR's ORIGINAL ANABOLIC OUTLAW~ [RIP-8/20/11]
Bro if you don't use your adex during....I strongly recommend it in PCT....along with the nolva.
Post Cycle Extraordinaire~GOT PCT?
^^^ I wouldnt recommend Adex in PCT big bro...
Adex and Nolva reduce each other's effectiveness...
My suggestion would be to run Aromasin for an AI during PCT.
Member
second that - dont do adex and nolva together - replace the adex with aromasin or proviron for an AI in PCT
AR's ORIGINAL ANABOLIC OUTLAW~ [RIP-8/20/11]
I guess the PCT's that I've done with adex and nolva, the ones where I kept 90% of my gains and had absolutely no issues with sex drive and recovered fully were wrong!!! Who would have thought?!
AR's ORIGINAL ANABOLIC OUTLAW~ [RIP-8/20/11]
Introduction
I have received a lot of heat lately about my preference for Nolvadex over Clomid, which I hold for all purposes of use (in the bodybuilding world anyway); as an anti-estrogen, an HDL (good) cholesterol-supporting drug, and as a testosterone-stimulating compound. Most people use Nolvadex to combat gynecomastia over Clomid anyway, so that is an easy sell. And for cholesterol, well, most bodybuilders unfortunately pay little attention to this important issue, so by way of disinterest, another easy opinion to discuss. But when it comes to using Nolvadex for increasing endogenous testosterone release, bodybuilders just do not want to hear it. They only seem to want Clomid. I can only guess that this is based on a long rooted misunderstanding of the actions of the two drugs. In this article I would therefore like to discuss the specifics for these two agents, and explain clearly the usefulness of Nolvadex for the specific purpose of increasing testosterone production.
Clomid and Nolvadex
I am not sure how Clomid and Nolvadex became so separated in the minds of bodybuilders. They certainly should not be. Clomid and Nolvadex are both anti-estrogens belonging to the same group of triphenylethylene compounds. They are structurally related and specifically classified as selective estrogen receptor modulators (SERMs) with mixed agonistic and antagonistic properties. This means that in certain tissues they can block the effects of estrogen, by altering the binding capacity of the receptor, while in others they can act as actual estrogens, activating the receptor. In men, both of these drugs act as anti-estrogens in their capacity to oppose the negative feedback of estrogens on the hypothalamus and stimulate the heightened release of GnRH (Gonadotropin Releasing Hormone). LH output by the pituitary will be increased as a result, which in turn can increase the level of testosterone by the testes. Both drugs do this, but for some reason bodybuilders persist in thinking that Clomid is the only drug good at stimulating testosterone. What you will find with a little investigation however is that not only is Nolvadex useful for the same purpose, it should actually be the preferred agent of the two.
Studies conducted in the late 1970's at the University of Ghent in Belgium make clear the advantages of using Nolvadex instead of Clomid for increasing testosterone levels (1). Here, researchers looked the effects of Nolvadex and Clomid on the endocrine profiles of normal men, as well as those suffering from low sperm counts (oligospermia). For our purposes, the results of these drugs on hormonally normal men are obviously the most relevant. What was found, just in the early parts of the study, was quite enlightening. Nolvadex, used for 10 days at a dosage of 20mg daily, increased serum testosterone levels to 142% of baseline, which was on par with the effect of 150mg of Clomid daily for the same duration (the testosterone increase was slightly, but not significantly, better for Clomid). We must remember though that this is the effect of three 50mg tablets of Clomid. With the price of both a 50mg Clomid and 20mg Nolvadex typically very similar, we are already seeing a cost vs. results discrepancy forming that strongly favors the Nolvadex side.
AR's ORIGINAL ANABOLIC OUTLAW~ [RIP-8/20/11]
Aromasin (Exemestane) is one of those weird compounds that nobody really knows what to do with. What we generally hear about it makes it very uninteresting…It’s a third generation Aromatase Inhibitor (AI) just like Arimidex (Anastrozole) and Femera (Letrozole). Both of those two drugs are very efficient at stopping the conversion of androgens into estrogen, and since we have them, why bother with Aromasin? It’s a little harder to get than the other two commonly used aromatase inhibitors, because it’s not in high demand, and there’s never been a readily apparent advantage to using it. And I mean…lets face it: It’s awkward-sounding. Aromasin doesn’t have much of a ring to it, and exemestane is even worse. Arimidex has a bunch of cool abbreviations ("A-dex" or just ‘dex) and even Letrozole is just "Letro" to most people. Where’s the cool nickname for Aromasin/exemestane? A-Sin? E-Stane? It just doesn’t work. It’s the black sheep of AIs. And why do we even need it when we have Letrozole, which is by far the most efficient AI for stopping aromatization (the process by which your body converts testosterone into estrogen)? Letro can reduce estrogen levels by 98% or greater; clinically a dose as low as 100mcgs has been shown to provide maximumaromatase inhibition (2)!
So why would we need any other AIs? Well, first of all, estrogen is necessary for healthy joints (3) as well as a healthy immune system (4). So getting rid of 98% of the estrogen in your body for an extended period of time may not be the best of ideas. This may be useful on an extreme cutting cycle, leading up to a bodybuilding contest, or if you are particularly prone to gyno, but certainly can’t be used safely for extended periods of time without compromising your joints and immune system.
That leaves us with Arimidex, which isn’t as potent as Letrozole, but at .5mgs/day will still get rid of around half (50%) of the estrogen in your body. Problem solved, right? Use Arimidex on your typical cycles, and if you are very prone to gyno or are getting ready for a contest, use Letro.
But what about Post Cycle Therapy (PCT)?
I think at this point most people are sold on the use of Nolvadex (Tamoxifen Citrate) instead of Clomid for post cycle therapy (PCT), since both compete estrogen at the receptor site, both increase serum test levels, and both drugs may also alter blood lipid profiles favorably (6). But since 20mgs of Tamoxifen is equal to 150mgs of clomid for purposes of testosterone elevation, FSH and LH, but Tamoxifen doesn’t decrease the LH response to LHRH (6) I think most people agree to Nolvadex’s superiority for PCT.
Aromasin with Nolvadex
I’ve always been in favor of using Nolvadex during PCT, along with an AI, because reducing estrogen levels has been positively correlated with an increase in testosterone (7) so in my mind, it’s be beneficial to increase testosterone by as many mechanisms as possible while trying to recover your endogenous testosterone levels after a cycle. SO which AI do we use? Letro or A-dex? Well, why don’t we just keep using whichever one we used during the cycle, and add in some Nolvadex? Unfortunately, Nolvadex will significantly reduce the blood plasma levels of both Letrozole as well as Arimidex (8). So if we choose to use one of them with our Nolvadex on PCT, we’re throwing away a bit of money as the Nolvadex will be reducing their effectiveness. This, of course, is where Aromasin comes in, at 20-25mgs/day.
Aromasin, at that dose, will raise your testosterone levels by about 60%, and also help out your free to bound testosterone ratio by lowering levels of Sex Hormone Binding Globulin (SHBG), by about 20% (12)…SHBG is that nasty enzyme that binds to testosterone andrenders it useless for building muscle. But what about using it along with Nolvadex for PCT?
Difference Between Type-I and Type-II Aromatase Inhibitors
To understand why Aromasin may be useful in conjunction with Nolvadex while both Letro and A-dex suffer reduced effectiveness, we’ll need to first understand the differences between a Type-I and Type-II Aromatase Inhibitor. Type I inhibitors (like Aromasin) are actually steroidal compounds, while type II inhibitors (like Letro and A-dex) are non-steroidal drugs. Hence, androgenic side effects are very possible with Type-I AIs, and they should probably be avoided by women. Of course, there are some similarities between the two types of AIs…both type I & type II AIs mimic normal substrates (essentially androgens), allowing them to compete with the substrate for access to the binding site on the aromatase enzyme. After this binding, the next step is where things differ greatly for the two different types of AI’s. In the case of a type-I AI, the noncompetitive inhibitor will bind, and the enzyme initiates a sequence of hydroxylation; this hydroxylation produces an unbreakable covalent bond between the inhibitor and the enzyme protein. Now, enzyme activity is permanently blocked; even if all unattached inhibitor is removed. Aromatase enzyme activity can only be restored by new enzyme synthesis. Now, on the other hand, competitive inhibitors, called type II AI’s, reversibly bind to the active enzyme site, and one of two things can happen:
1.) either no enzyme activity is triggered or
2.) the enzyme is somehow triggered without effect.
The type II inhibitor can now actually disassociate from the binding site, eventually allowing renewed competition between the inhibitor and the substrate for binding to the site. This means that the effectiveness of competitive aromatase inhibitors depends on the relative concentrations and affinities of both the inhibitor and the substrate, while this is not so for noncompetitive inhibitors. Aromasin is a type-I inhibitor, meaning that once it has done its job, and deactivated the aromatase enzyme, we don’t need it anymore. Letrozole and Arimidex actually need to remain present to continue their effects. This is possibly why Nolvadex does notalter the pharmacokinetics of Aromasin (11).
Conclusion
Before we close the book on Aromasin, it’s worth noting that you can (and should) still use one of the non-steroidal AIs during your cycle to reduce estrogen, if necessary. When you are ready for PCT, you can then switch over to Aromasin and still experience the full effects of an AI, since there is no cross-over tolerance experienced between steroidal and non-steroidal AIs (9). Since Aromasin is about 65% efficient at suppressing estrogen (10), it’s certainly a very powerful agent, especially considering you won’t experience reduced effectiveness because of your concurrent use of Nolvadex or from any sort of tolerance developed by using other AIs on your cycle(9). There is also a decent amount of preclinical data suggesting that Aromasin has a beneficial effect on bone mineral metabolism that is not seen with non-steroidal agents, and it may also have beneficial effects on lipid metabolism that are not found in the non-steroidal Letro and A-dex (9).
Finally, as we’re going to be using Nolvadex for PCT anyway, and we ought to be using an AI with it for maximum recovery…I think Aromasin- considering it’s compatibility with Nolvadex and beneficial effects on bone mineral content and lipid profile, has finally stopped being the black sheep of AIs and found a home in our cycles.
References:
1. Clin Cancer Res. 2005 Apr 15;11(8):2809-21.
2. J Clin Endocrinol Metab. 1995 Sep;80(9):2658-60.
3. [Clinical aspects of estrogen and bone metabolism] Clin Calcium. 2002 Sep;12(9):1246-51. Japanese.
4. Science, Vol 283, Issue 5406, 1277-1278 ,26 February 1999
5. J Clin Endocrinol Metab 2000 Jul;85(7):2370-7, "Estrogen Suppression in Males"
6. Fertil Steril. 1978 Mar;29(3):320-7
7. J Clin Endocrinol Metab. 2004 Mar;89(3):1174-80
8. J Steroid Biochem Mol Biol. 2001 Dec;79(1-5):85-91.
9. The Oncologist, Vol. 9, No. 2, 126–136, April 2004
10. Zilembo N., Noberasco C., Bajetta E., Martinetti A., Mariani L., Orefici S. Endocrinological and clinical evaluation of exemestane, a new steroidal aromatase inhibitor. Br. J. Cancer, 72: 1007-1012, 1995
11. Clinical Cancer Research Vol. 10, 1943-1948, March 2004
12. The Journal of Clinical Endocrinology & Metabolism Vol. 88, No. 12 5951-5956
Copyright © 2003 by The Endocrine Society
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