Is Nolvadex better than HCG for PCT?

[louiscypher]

Anybody want to weigh in on this one, I'm new to this PCT stuff. Back in the day we were just worried about getting real juice, PCT was for the pros and guys with good connections lol. We used Nolvadex back then for bitch tits (gyno). HCG was a PCT, if you could get it. But like I said it was for the upper crust of the body building world. How old am I? Well put it this way I did Anadrol 50 made by Syntex. Don't freak guys thats a legit pharmacutical company.

[LATS60]

Anybody want to weigh in on this one, I'm new to this PCT stuff. Back in the day we were just worried about getting real juice, PCT was for the pros and guys with good connections lol. We used Nolvadex back then for bitch tits (gyno). HCG was a PCT, if you could get it. But like I said it was for the upper crust of the body building world. How old am I? Well put it this way I did Anadrol 50 made by Syntex. Don't freak guys thats a legit pharmacutical company.

They both have their uses in helping to restore natural test production but as they are so different you cannot say that one is better over the other, they are both good at what they do.

[hellapimpin]

wow your old!

jk!

umm Nolva, stacked with HCG, and aromasin is known to be a killer pct.. as far as which is better...i couldnt say, because I don't run just 1 compound for pct.. Just nolva, or just hcg, or even just Clomid..

although i will say in dosage comparison.. nolva is stronger per mg i believe

[Hazard]

I run HCG durring my cycle and nolvadex durring pct unless gyno symptoms come up durring cycle..... then i'd start my nolva early.

Nolva and clomid are much better options..... i'm not an EXPERT on pct..... but i believe it has to do with the LH (leutinizing hormone)..... if your taking too much hcg in PCT it may inhibit recovery......?

HCG durring cycle will help prevent testicular atrophy..... and help your recovery durring pct.

if i'm wrong - someone please correct me lol

~Haz~

[T-MOS]

HCG is usually used during the end of the cycle, and NOT in PCT anymore. For PCT you want clomid/nolva

[hellapimpin]

i put up a post a few weeks ago, regarding.. HCG during cycle and post cycle.. for the most part, seemed like most preferred it during cycle.. and yes Hazard.. the pct i prefer is nolva, clomid, proviron

[Immortal Soldier]

HCG is usually ran in the last 2 weeks of a cycle and in the first two weeks before PCT (4 weeks total) because it will merely delay the PCT process when nolva/clomid are trying to restart the HPTA.

[powerliftmike]

For most cycles I have found hcg to be of little use. Only cycles consisting of trens or nandrolones would be the exception. Nolvadex is usually considered a PCT staple and I find it better than clomid myself. hcg should not be used in PCT, if used, during cycle.

[Dizz28]

Anybody want to weigh in on this one, I'm new to this PCT stuff. Back in the day we were just worried about getting real juice, PCT was for the pros and guys with good connections lol. We used Nolvadex back then for bitch tits (gyno). HCG was a PCT, if you could get it. But like I said it was for the upper crust of the body building world. How old am I? Well put it this way I did Anadrol 50 made by Syntex. Don't freak guys thats a legit pharmacutical company.

I just had those 4 years ago, got them from south america, that doesn't make me old

[lovex]

HCG is usually ran in the last 2 weeks of a cycle and in the first two weeks before PCT (4 weeks total) because it will merely delay the PCT process when nolva/clomid are trying to restart the HPTA.

I agree with this......

but anyway why dont u go PCT section read about PCT. Get Knowledge about PCT.

[LATS60]

For most cycles I have found hcg to be of little use. Only cycles consisting of trens or nandrolones would be the exception. Nolvadex is usually considered a PCT staple and I find it better than clomid myself. hcg should not be used in PCT, if used, during cycle.

I think many ppl find it of little use, but thats because of the misinformation on protocols, in this thread there are ppl saying it should be ran for 2wks and the 2wks up till PCT, IMHO i don't think that 4wks of HCG use on low doses like 500iu two or three times per wk is going to do a great deal.
You only have to look at the dosages and duration in studies on hypogonadal males to realise how much and for how long this hormone has to be used for to ellicit any respectable effects.

[Immortal Soldier]

I think many ppl find it of little use, but thats because of the misinformation on protocols, in this thread there are ppl saying it should be ran for 2wks and the 2wks up till PCT, IMHO i don't think that 4wks of HCG use on low doses like 500iu two or three times per wk is going to do a great deal.
You only have to look at the dosages and duration in studies on hypogonadal males to realise how much and for how long this hormone has to be used for to ellicit any respectable effects.

So in your opinion, would you run HCG after lets say a long cycle (22 weeks)? And if so what dosage?

[louiscypher]

So can I run Nolva for my PCT to restore my natural test levels? Thats the main objective in PCT is'nt it? I just want my balls to regain conciousness after there shutdown lol.

[LATS60]

So in your opinion, would you run HCG after lets say a long cycle (22 weeks)? And if so what dosage?

I would advise running from the start of the cycle up to pct.
Schools of thought on dosages will always be debatable, remember that GnRH is delivered in a pulsitile fashion and therefore it follows that LH is too, so daily dosing would be the way to go.
I think portaz (well respected authority) recommends daily dosing throught a cycle.

[louiscypher]

I just had those 4 years ago, got them from south america, that doesn't make me old

Ah, I'm talking about the American Syntex they discontinued in 1993. My bad.

[LATS60]

So can I run Nolva for my PCT to restore my natural test levels? Thats the main objective in PCT is'nt it? I just want my balls to regain conciousness after there shutdown lol.

Nolva and clomid yes. Remember that PCT doesnt restore you're natural tests levels, it helps to restart communication between the HPTA and the pituitary gland, natural test restoration can take many weeks/months after you're PCT has finished.

[Immortal Soldier]

I would advise running from the start of the cycle up to pct.
Schools of thought on dosages will always be debatable, remember that GnRH is delivered in a pulsitile fashion and therefore it follows that LH is too, so daily dosing would be the way to go.
I think portaz (well respected authority) recommends daily dosing throught a cycle.

Alright if the user decides not to run it during the cycle would you advise that there is no use in trying to run it before the PCT since the dosages and time frame wouldn't make it effective?

[Mammon]

i stop the HCG before i start any pct meds.

[Deep_Fried]

I would advise running from the start of the cycle up to pct.
Schools of thought on dosages will always be debatable, remember that GnRH is delivered in a pulsitile fashion and therefore it follows that LH is too, so daily dosing would be the way to go.
I think portaz (well respected authority) recommends daily dosing throught a cycle.

Exactly. I always Agreed with Eric Potratz article and methodology/reasoning:

HCG - Unraveled
By Eric M. Potratz

Eric M. Potratz has developed his education in the field of endocrinology and performance enhancement through years of research, counseling, and real world experience. Over the past five years he has been a private consultant for hundreds of athletes and bodybuilders alike, and is the founder & president of Primordial Performance.

PCT is a must upon cessation of steroid use. Many great PCT protocols have been outlined over the years, and many individuals have had success with following such protocols. Nevertheless, what works can always work better, and I intend to show you the most effective way to recover from AAS. This is especially the case for those that have had a lack of success following popular advice. In this article I will address the misunderstanding and misuse of Human Chorionic Gonadotropin (hCG) and show you the most efficient way to use hCG for the fastest and most complete recovery.

HCG unraveled –

Human Chorionic Gonadotropin (hCG) is a peptide hormone that mimics the action of luteinizing hormone (LH). LH is the hormone that stimulates the testes to produce testosterone. (1) More specifically LH is the primary signal sent from the pituitary to the testes, which stimulates the leydig cells within the testes to produce testosterone.

When steroids are administered, LH levels rapidly decline. The absence of an LH signal from the pituitary causes the testes to stop producing testosterone, which causes rapid onset of testicular degeneration. The testicular degeneration begins with a reduction of leydig cell volume, and is then followed by rapid reductions in intra-testicular testosterone (ITT), peroxisomes, and Insulin-like factor 3 (INSL3) – All important bio-markers and factors for proper testicular function and testosterone production. (2-6,19) However, this degeneration can be prevented by a small maintenance dose of hCG ran throughout the cycle. Unfortunately, most steroid users have been engrained to believe that hCG should be used after a cycle, during PCT. Upon reviewing the science and basic endocrinology you will see that a faster and more complete recovery is possible if hCG is ran during a cycle.

Firstly, we must understand the clinical history of hCG to understand its purpose and its most efficient application. Many popular “steroid profiles” advocate using hCG at a dose of 2500-5000iu once or twice a week. These were the kind of dosages used in the historical (1960’s) hCG studies for hypogonadal men who had reduced testicular sensitivity due to prolonged LH deficiency. (21,22) A prolonged LH deficiency causes the testes to desensitize, requiring a higher hCG dose for ample stimulation. In men with normal LH levels and normal testicular sensitivity, the maximum increase of testosterone is seen from a dose of only 250iu, with minimal increases obtained from 500iu or even 5000iu. (2,11) (It appears the testes maximum secretion of testosterone is about 140% above their normal capacity.) (12-18) If you have allowed your testes to desensitize over the length of a typical steroid cycle, (8-16 weeks) then you would require a higher dose to elicit a response in an attempt to restore normal testicular size and function – but there is cost to this, and a high probability that you won’t regain full testicular function.

One term that is critical to understand is testosterone secretion capacity which is synonymous to testicular sensitivity. This is the amount of testosterone your testes can produce from any given LH or hCG stimulation. Therefore, if you have reduced testosterone secretion capacity (reduced testicular sensitivity), it will take more LH or hCG stimulation to produce the same result as if you had normal testosterone secretion capacity. If you reduce your testosterone secretion capacity too much, then no amount of LH or hCG stimulation will trigger normal testosterone production – and this leads to permanently reduced testosterone production.

To get an idea of how quickly you can reduce your testosterone secretion capacity from your average steroid cycle, consider this: LH levels are rapidly decreased by the 2nd day of steroid administration. (2,9,10) By shutting down the LH signal and allowing the testis to be non-functional over a 12-16 week period, leydig cell volume decreases 90%, ITT decreases 94%, INSL3 decreases 95%, while the capacity to secrete testosterone decreases as much as 98%. (2-6)

Note: visually analyzing testes size is a poor method of judging your actual testicular function, since testicular size is not directly related to the ability to secrete testosterone. (4) This is because the leydig cells, which are the primary sites of testosterone secretion, only make up about 10% of the total testicular volume. Therefore, when the testes may only appear 5-10% smaller, the testes ability to secrete testosterone upon LH or hCG stimulation can actually be significantly reduced to 98% of their normal production. (3-5) The point here is to not judge testosterone secretion capacity by testicular size.



The decreased testosterone secretion capacity caused by steroid use was well demonstrated in a study on power athletes who used steroids for 16 weeks, and were then administered 4500iu hCG post cycle. It was found that the steroid users were about 20 times less responsive to hCG, when compared to normal men who did not use steroids. (8) In other words, their testosterone secretion capacity was dramatically reduced because they did not receive an LH signal for 16 weeks. The testes essentially became desensitized and crippled. Case studies with steroid using patients show that aggressive long-term treatment with hCG at dosages as high as 10,000iu E3D for 12 weeks were unable to return full testicular size. (7) Another study with men using low dose steroids for 6 weeks showed unsuccessful return of Insulin-like factor-3 (INSL3) concentration in the testes upon 5000iu/wk of HCG treatment for 12 weeks (6) (INSL3 is an important biomarker for testosterone production potential and sperm production. 20)

These studies show that postponing hCG usage until the end of a steroid cycle increases your need for a higher dose of hCG, and decreases your odds of a full recovery. As a consequence to using a higher dose of hCG at the end of a cycle, estrogen will be increased disproportionately to testosterone, which then causes further HPTA suppression (from high estrogen) while increasing the risk of gyno. (11) For example, high doses of hCG have been found to raise estradiol up to 165%, while only raising testosterone 140%. (11) Higher doses of hCG are also known to reduce LH receptor concentration and degrade the enzymes responsible for testosterone synthesis within the testes (12,13,19 ) -- the last thing someone wants during recovery. While these negative effects of hCG can be partly mitigated by the use of a SERM such as tamoxifen, it will create further problems associated with using a toxic SERM (covered in another article).

In light of the above evidence, it becomes obvious that we must take preventative measures to avoid this testicular degeneration. We must protect our testicular sensitivity. Besides, with hCG being so readily available, and such a painless shot, it makes you wonder why anyone wouldn’t use it on cycle.

Based on studies with normal men using steroids, 100iu HCG administered everyday was enough to preserve full testicular function and ITT levels, without causing desensitization typically associated with higher doses of hCG. (2) It is important that low-dose hCG is started before testicular sensitivity is reduced, which appears to rapidly manifest within the first 2-3 weeks of steroid use. Also, it’s important to discontinue the hCG before you start PCT so your leydig cells are given a chance to re-sensitize to your body’s own LH production. (To help further enhance testicular sensitivity, the dietary supplement Toco-8 may be used)

A more convenient alternative to the above recommendation would be a twice a week shot of 200iu hCG, or possibly a once a week shot of 500iu. However, it is most desirable to adhere to a lower more frequent dose of hCG to mimic the body’s natural LH release and minimize estrogen conversion. If you are starting hCG late in the cycle, one could calculate a rough estimate for their required hCG ‘kick starting’ dosage by multiplying 40iu x days of LH absence, since the testes will be desensitized, thus requiring a higher dose. (ie. 40iu x 60 days = 2400iu HCG dose)

Note: If following the on cycle hCG protocol, hCG should NOT be used for PCT.

Recap –

For preservation of testicular sensitivity, use 100iu hCG ED starting 7 days after your first AAS dose. At the end of the cycle, drop the hCG two weeks before the AAS clear the system. For example, you would drop hCG about the same time as your last Testosterone Enanthate shot. Or, if you are ending the cycle with orals, you would drop the hCG about 10 days before your last oral dose. This will allow for a sudden and even clearance in hormone levels, while initiating LH and FSH production from the pituitary, to begin stimulating your testes to produce testosterone. Remember, recovery doesn’t begin until you are off hCG since your body will not release its own LH until the hCG has cleared the system.

In conclusion, we have learned that utilizing hCG during a steroid cycle will significantly prevent testicular degeneration. This helps create a seamless transition from “on cycle” to “off cycle” thus avoiding the post cycle crash.



References -

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2. Low-Dose Human Chorionic Gonadotropin Maintains Intratesticular Testosterone in Normal Men with Testosterone-Induced Gonadotropin Suppression
Andrea D. Coviello, et al
J. Clin. Endocrinol. Metab., May 2005; 90: 2595 - 2602.

3. Luteinizing hormone on Leydig cell structure and function.
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Histol Histopathol 12:869–882 (1997)

4. Leydig cell peroxisomes and sterol carrier protein-2 in luteinizing hormone-deprived rats
SM Mendis-Handagama, et al.
Endocrinology, Dec 1992; 131: 2839.

5. Effect of long term deprivation of luteinizing hormone on Leydig cell volume, Leydig cell number, and steroidogenic capacity of the rat testis.
Keeney DS, et al.
Endocrinology 1988; 123:2906–2915.

6.The Effects of Gonadotropin Suppression and Selective Replacement on Insulin-Like Factor 3 Secretion in Normal Adult Men
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7. Successful treatment of anabolic steroid–induced azoospermia with human
chorionic gonadotropin and human menopausal gonadotropin
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FERTILITY AND STERILITY VOL. 79, SUPPL. 3, JUNE 2003

8. Testicular responsiveness to human chorionic godadotrophin during transient hypogonadotrophic hypogonadism induced by androgenic/anabolic steroids in power athletes
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J. Steroid Biochem. Vol. 25, No. 1 pp. 109-112 (1986)

9. Comparison of testosterone, dihydrotestosterone, luteinizing hormone, and follicle-stimulating hormone in serum after injection of testosterone enanthate of testosterone cypionate.
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Fertil Steril 33:201–203

10. Effects of chronic testosterone administration in normal men: safety and efficacy of high dosage testosterone and parallel dose-dependent suppression of luteinizing hormone, follicle-stimulating hormone, and sperm production.
Matsumoto AM, et al 1990
J Clin Endocrinol Metab 70:282–287

11. Effect of human chorionic gonadotropin on plasma steroid levels in young and old men.
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Rec Prog Horm Res 1980; 36:557–622

13. Effect of human chorionic gonadotropin on the endocrine function of Papio testes
GV Katsiia, et al

[Hazard]

pretty close to what i do..... for the cycle i'm about to start - i was going to run 250iu's 2 to 3 times per week up until 5 days before my pct starts....

~Haz~

[louiscypher]

OMG I have so much to learn! Thanks for the info guys, Deep_Fried props to you bro.