synergic relation of HGH and insulin

[fabritio]

Hello everyone,
I wanted to post this chart since it came straight out of the horses mouth (medical school) and clearly shows the importance of using insulin when taking HGH in order to get the full growth potential. As the graph shows there is small gain in weight from using HGH alone or Insulin alone but when combined the real magic happens. I also want to emphasize for those who don't know already that taking insulin is very dangerous and not for amateurs. You can easily die from low glucose in your bloodstream.

[Belial10732]

This chart is absolutely useless and says absolutely nothing out of proper context. What is the data referring to? What is the sample pool? Protocol?

[maxdose]

One thing is insulin dosage- many dont realize that a higher dose can inhibit cell sensitivity to GH...theres a lot more to it than that- peptides and insulin are complicated to say the least, seems like another study comes out every couple of weeks contradicting what we previously thought to be true.
From some of what I read a 5iu dosage no more is the amount to use with out decreasing cell sensitivity to GH...but Im a layman to it all at the end of the day.

[fabritio]

This chart is absolutely useless and says absolutely nothing out of proper context. What is the data referring to? What is the sample pool? Protocol?

the chat is presented to show the synergic relationship between insulin and HGH and not to indicate how much weight can be gained or how fast since this comes from animal research. As the graph is labeled, the subject depancreatized (removed pancrease which produces insulin) and dehypophysectomized (removal of hypothalamus which produces HGH) in order to see first what is the effect on weight gain from the addition of insulin alone and HGH alone.
The chart is not meaningless but instead shows that taking HGH alone is a waste of money without the addition of insulin.

[Belial10732]

the chat is presented to show the synergic relationship between insulin and HGH and not to indicate how much weight can be gained or how fast since this comes from animal research. As the graph is labeled, the subject depancreatized (removed pancrease which produces insulin) and dehypophysectomized (removal of hypothalamus which produces HGH) in order to see first what is the effect on weight gain from the addition of insulin alone and HGH alone.
The chart is not meaningless but instead shows that taking HGH alone is a waste of money without the addition of insulin.

I am aware of the definitions.

The chart is meaningless and not applicable to any discussions here.

The animal model here is an organism that completely lacks the ability to produce insulin and HGH. As you stated, both the pancreas and hypothalamus have been removed.

In this case, the chart would demonstrate (at its most basic) that the presence of one compound is required for any sort of anabolic activity from the other. (Note there is no mention of the nature of mass gained, whether it be muscle, adipose tissue, etc., so this would just refer to anabolic activity in general).

The complete absence of one therefore prevents adequate function of the other.

HOWEVER, in our models (healthy human individuals), we possess the ability to produce both GH and insulin. The chart does NOTHING to back the claim that supraphysiological levels of one are required to take advantage of supraphysiological levels of the other. The chart shows NO such relation. Your assertion that the chart "clearly shows the importance of using insulin while taking HGH" is NOT backed up by what you have presented. There is zero data here showing what the ratio of the two compounds needs to be, or showing what amount of each was given to the rats, or what the dosing protocol was.

Again, it is absolutely useless and does nothing but confirm mechanisms that we already know.

I am not trying to flame you at all, but it is a classic example of incorrect conclusions being drawn from inapplicable data.

Both fuel and oxygen are required for combustion. If I show you a graph that simply shows one won't burn without the other, fine. But I can't use that graph to reinforce any claim I make regarding the proper ratio of one to the other.

[ScotchGuard02]

I think this chart tells me that the correct combo of HGH and Insulin can really a powerful combination. What's the "right" dosage? There's the search button and a lot of experienced users on this forum. Nice plot.

[Belial10732]

I think this chart tells me that the correct combo of HGH and Insulin can really a powerful combination. What's the "right" dosage? There's the search button and a lot of experienced users on this forum. Nice plot.

It doesn't show that.

It's a plot that shows the compounds used varying with time, and weight gain over time over different courses of treatment.

It's completely meaningless.

[Anticatabolik]

Hello everyone,
I wanted to post this chart since it came straight out of the horses mouth (medical school) and clearly shows the importance of using insulin when taking HGH in order to get the full growth potential. As the graph shows there is small gain in weight from using HGH alone or Insulin alone but when combined the real magic happens. I also want to emphasize for those who don't know already that taking insulin is very dangerous and not for amateurs. You can easily die from low glucose in your bloodstream.

This is simply false,

Taking insulin with hgh is suicide!

You will develop diabetes very rapidly!!

[maxdose]

This is simply false,

Taking insulin with hgh is suicide!

You will develop diabetes very rapidly!!

I'd like to hear more on this, since alot of people use the 2 together and DO NOT ever develop diabetes.

[ScotchGuard02]

I'm not a medical professional but I am an engineer and I understand the fue and air analogy much better. If you plot combustion (energy) based on only fuel you'll see a very inefficient combustion result. Same with only air. If you mix the fuel and air you'll see a HUGE difference when compared to just fuel or just air. I would take empirical testing to arrive at 14.7:1 air to fuel mixture as the optimal ratio. However, even with less than optimal mixture you would see a HUGE increase in combustion energy over just fuel or just ait. That's what I see in this plot. There's this animal that doesn't secrete either HGH or Insulin. HGH only show marginal improvement, Insulin only shows marginal improvement. Insulin + HGH shows HUGE increase. anticatabolic, our bodies naturally produce HGH and Insulin. Children eat large quantities of sugar which induce insulin secretion. Children also produce more HGH than adults. Why is there lower cases of diabetes among children than adults? I'm not trying to be a smart ass. I'm genuinely curious why HGH and Insulin together causes diabetes.

[Anticatabolik]

I'm not a medical professional but I am an engineer and I understand the fue and air analogy much better. If you plot combustion (energy) based on only fuel you'll see a very inefficient combustion result. Same with only air. If you mix the fuel and air you'll see a HUGE difference when compared to just fuel or just air. I would take empirical testing to arrive at 14.7:1 air to fuel mixture as the optimal ratio. However, even with less than optimal mixture you would see a HUGE increase in combustion energy over just fuel or just ait. That's what I see in this plot. There's this animal that doesn't secrete either HGH or Insulin. HGH only show marginal improvement, Insulin only shows marginal improvement. Insulin + HGH shows HUGE increase. anticatabolic, our bodies naturally produce HGH and Insulin. Children eat large quantities of sugar which induce insulin secretion. Children also produce more HGH than adults. Why is there lower cases of diabetes among children than adults? I'm not trying to be a smart ass. I'm genuinely curious why HGH and Insulin together causes diabetes.

Well,

If you take insulin which is sugar and peptides together, you cause a spike which causes blurred vision and makes you sleepy. Now continue doing this and it will cause sensitivity which in turn leads to diabetes....

Children growing up have a very good resistance to this process, that is the growing process, however as you get older, you cannot tolerate this and your sensitivity increases....

[jfg4]

This is like a chart with a male that was castrated, and given HRT with testosterone. As stated the organism had both his pancreas and hypothalamus ablated

[ScotchGuard02]

I read this on a medical site about insulin. Insulin reduce sugar level in the body not add to it. As a matter of fact, insulin can cause hypoglycemia. This forum seem to point to a good meal after insulin an insulin shot to maintain the blood sugar level. The peptides, GHRP-6, induce the secretion of HGH through the pituitary. HGH slows the absorption of sugar. If insulin, which lowers the sugar level in the blood, and HGH which inhibit the intake of sugar, are taken together will the net result be lowered sugar level in the body or higher sugar level? Has anyone run both Insulin and HGH together?

"Elevated levels of glucose in the blood stimulates cells of the pancreas to increase insulin secretion into the blood. The insulin circulates the body, and within minutes, stimulates the liver and muscle cells to take up glucose from the blood. As glucose is removed from the blood, obviously blood levels fall. As the levels in the blood fall, the secretion of insulin falls to, so less is produced, and less is taken up by the liver and muscle. In this way, the blood glucose level is reduced back to within the normal range."

[SlimmerMe]

would like to hear more too....

[ScotchGuard02]

I found this at a different forum. Not scientific research but interesting to read.

"Other drugs also need to be used in conjunction with HGH in order to elicit the best results. Your body seems to require an increased amount of thyroid hormones, insulin and androgens while HGH levels are elevated (HGH therapy in fact is shown to lower thyroid and insulin levels). To begin with, the addition of thyroid hormones will greatly increase the thermogenic effectiveness of a cycle. Taking either CytomelR or SynthroidR (prescription versions of T-3 and T-4) would seem to make the most sense (the more powerful CytomelR is usually preferred). Insulin as well is very welcome during a cycle, used most commonly in an anabolic routine as described in this book under the insulin heading. Aside from replacing lowered insulin levels, use of this hormone is important as it can increase receptor sensitivity to IGF-1, and reduce levels of IGF binding protein-1 allowing for more free circulating IGF-1 (growth hormone itself also lowers IGF binding protein levelss'). Steroids as well prove very necessary for the full anabolic effect of GH to become evident. Particularly something with a notable androgenic component such as testosterone or trenbolone (if worried about estrogen) should be used. The added androgen is quite useful, as it promotes anabolism by enhancing muscle cell size (remember GH primarily effects cell number). Steroid use may also increase free IGF-1 via a lowering of IGF binding proteins. The combination of all of these (HGH, anabolics, insulin and T-3) proves to be the most synergistic combination, providing clearly amplified results. it is of course important to note that thyroid and insulin are particularly powerful drugs that involve a number of additional risks."

[Belial10732]

Interesting. A few notes I made, though...

I found this at a different forum. Not scientific research but interesting to read.

"Other drugs also need to be used in conjunction with HGH in order to elicit the best results. Your body seems to require an increased amount of thyroid hormones, insulin and androgens while HGH levels are elevated (HGH therapy in fact is shown to lower thyroid and insulin levels). To begin with, the addition of thyroid hormones will greatly increase the thermogenic effectiveness of a cycle. Taking either CytomelR or SynthroidR (prescription versions of T-3 and T-4) would seem to make the most sense (the more powerful CytomelR is usually preferred).

Thermogenic effectiveness... Thermogenic means "heat generating". A thermogenic compound, for our purposes, is a very specific type of drug that speeds up metabolism, a primary side effect of which is heat generation. HGH is not a thermogenic.

That aside, there is no evidence that HGH therapy, in the doses we are discussing, reduce T3 or T4 levels down to a level where replacement would be needed. If you want to use them for additional weight loss, go ahead, but it's not necessary.

If you want a short discussion as to WHY some people may believe it's necessary, read the Discussion of this paper: http://jcem.endojournals.org/cgi/con...ull/83/10/3493

Insulin as well is very welcome during a cycle, used most commonly in an anabolic routine as described in this book under the insulin heading. Aside from replacing lowered insulin levels, use of this hormone is important as it can increase receptor sensitivity to IGF-1, and reduce levels of IGF binding protein-1 allowing for more free circulating IGF-1 (growth hormone itself also lowers IGF binding protein levelss').

Insulin binds to IGFBP-rp1 and IGFBP-rp3 (2 of the 5 or 6 forms of IGFBP), but there is no evidence supporting the claim that supplemental insulin will in any way bind enough of it to increase free IGF-1.

And insulin will in any way increase IGFR sensitivity. In fact, I'm not even sure that's physically possible. The IGFR TK does not undergo any conformation shift that I know of in the presence of insulin. (this would be one way the presence of one compound could alter the sensitivity of an enzyme that binds to another... one floats in and binds, which causes perhaps a new site to open up on the enzyme).

Steroids as well prove very necessary for the full anabolic effect of GH to become evident. Particularly something with a notable androgenic component such as testosterone or trenbolone (if worried about estrogen) should be used. The added androgen is quite useful, as it promotes anabolism by enhancing muscle cell size (remember GH primarily effects cell number). Steroid use may also increase free IGF-1 via a lowering of IGF binding proteins.

Well... yes. If you want muscle growth, add AAS.

Agreed.