First cycle [Test-e, deca, mast, Letro, Nova] Am I missing anything?

[Kidengland22]

Hey guys,

LONG TIME lurker here finally ready to start my first cycle.

I have a connection for all my aas needs but I had no where to get my pct and AI from, until ar-r Decided to have a 60% off sale!!

I want to know your thoughts on the cycle and if I should be using a different AI or add clomid to my pct.

Test-e 250mg x 2 / week
Masteron 100 mg eod
Deca 500 mg/week
Letro .25 mg eod (unless Gyno develops, then increase to .5 Ed until symptoms disappear)

stop deca week 10

Stop everything week 12

Start nova week 14-18
40/40/20/20


I am 20, 5'9, 165lbs been lifting for 6 years but stuck at 160-165 for over a years now (small family) so I believe I am close to my natural limits.

[Capebuffalo]

20 is too young my friend. 165 lbs is too light my friend . Please take advantage of the nutrition section. And btw for a first cycle you are no where close. Welcome . Do your research for a few year .

[castiron]

stop. diet. train. gain. then, your first should be test only.

[Kidengland22]

I realize some say 20 is too young but I have not grown taller in 4 years and I'm 21 in a month. I eat better than most and have committed my life to lifting for these 5 years (6-7 meals a day, around 230 grams of protein, all clean as possible). I'm sitting at around 10% bf but like I said, I can't gain size. I increase caloric intake, protein, carbs. Nothing. No, I do not want to add fat just to add weight, a lot of people are advocates of dirty gains but I want lean gains only.

If it means anything both my parents are shorter than me and my father weighs 155. My mothers father weighed 160 at his heaviest. I DO NOT come from a big family which leads me to believe that I do not have very much further to go naturally.

[jasc]

brother it has nothing to do with height, it has to do with your endocrine system maturation.

Because of your age you are at a much greater risk of permanent damage than if you had waited a few years.

[tboney]

What does your diet look like?

[tboney]

brother it has nothing to do with height, it has to do with your endocrine system maturation.

Because of your age you are at a much greater risk of permanent damage than if you had waited a few years.

Exactly!

[Capebuffalo]

Do they all practice the same speach before they get here? It's almost word for word each and every time.

[Kidengland22]

I understand. I'm just tired of being smaller than I want to be. I've made up my mind on cycling , and I plan on waiting until after I turn 21 to start the cycle, but considering the great sale today I wanted to get my pct and AI in hand. Im trying to make it as safe as possible. I know, waiting is safer, but I'm tired of waiting.

[castiron]

i wonder what the shelf life is of the arr products?

[Capebuffalo]

i wonder what the shelf life is of the arr products?

Doesnt matter they will be used 15 weeks from his start date.

[Kidengland22]

And I would be starting in 4-5 weeks. It's not like they're going to be sitting around for a year collecting dust.

Can I explain my reasoning of the cycle and get someone's input. The whole " too young too small" thing is somewhat true, I won't dispute that at all. However, it is not very persuading. There is no magic number for age, how can you have a magic size number if everyone is different? It's all up to interpretation. I want someone to give me experience with the aas in question and whether the stack in question would have the desired results.

Deca for bulking, mast for maintaining low bf% while on cycle, test for the obvious drop in natural test while on cycle.

I have read a lot that Letro is a heavy AI that can kill sex drive. However it is absorbed better than aromasin and anastrozole.

HCG would keep my nuts from shrinking and would assist with pct as it is a strong stack. however I have not found somewhere to get it yet. Will continue looking by myself.

Nova and clomid appear to be preference more than anything. As far as I can tell they have the same capabilities just dosed at different amounts. 150 vs 20 mg

[swm1972]

Do they all practice the same speach before they get here? It's almost word for word each and every time.

Lmao. It's like they all wrote their homework plagiarizing the same persons work. Verbatim!

[swm1972]

And I would be starting in 4-5 weeks. It's not like they're going to be sitting around for a year collecting dust.

Can I explain my reasoning of the cycle and get someone's input. The whole " too young too small" thing is somewhat true, I won't dispute that at all. However, it is not very persuading. There is no magic number for age, how can you have a magic size number if everyone is different? It's all up to interpretation. I want someone to give me experience with the aas in question and whether the stack in question would have the desired results.

Deca for bulking, mast for maintaining low bf% while on cycle, test for the obvious drop in natural test while on cycle.

I have read a lot that Letro is a heavy AI that can kill sex drive. However it is absorbed better than aromasin and anastrozole.

HCG would keep my nuts from shrinking and would assist with pct as it is a strong stack. however I have not found somewhere to get it yet. Will continue looking by myself.

Nova and clomid appear to be preference more than anything. As far as I can tell they have the same capabilities just dosed at different amounts. 150 vs 20 mg

I'm not of the specific age to cycle school like most of the users here. And you don't seem to be taking their advise either. So let me try a different approach.

You are not physically ready to cycle. At your size you will not get what you want by takin gear. Will you gain some weight? Well, maybe. Maybe even probably. But without knowing how to eat and workout properly your gains will be minimal and you will absolutely lose those gains when you come off. That's not a maybe, that's a You better bet your ass on it. That sets up a dangerous cycle I've seen many times. Come off a cycle where you gained 10 lbs. maybe a little more. Transition into pct and start dropped size and strength. At this point many people go right back on cycle and end up becoming addicted to the need to look a certain way. And they abuse these substances nonstop to reach and maintain their goals.

Also, I'd bet your connective tissue is nowhere ready for the strength gains that can come on cycle. This can lead to expensive injuries that keep you out of the gym for months at a time.

I bet if you spent the next 6 months focusing on diet and training, and I mean total commitment. Making it who the **** you are 24/7 you would be astonished at what you achieve without using gear. And you'd be much better prepared atleast having the knowledge and tools to succeed when you do start.

That gear isn't going to go bad. Put it on a shelf and slow your roll. You'll be glad you did.

[gixxerboy1]

deca for mass and mast to stay lean. Sorry it doesnt work that way. Your diet determines it all. And i guarantee you dont eat enough or the right things. Why dont you post your diet up.
And way to many things for a first cycle for any age.
And it doesnt matter what size the rest of your family is. You insides dont fully develop to your older. I think they say your brain till your late 20's, your hpta is mid 20's. So just because you may be done growing height wise doesnt mean you are fully developed

[Kidengland22]

I'm not of the specific age to cycle school like most of the users here. And you don't seem to be taking their advise either. So let me try a different approach.

You are not physically ready to cycle. At your size you will not get what you want by takin gear. Will you gain some weight? Well, maybe. Maybe even probably. But without knowing how to eat and workout properly your gains will be minimal and you will absolutely lose those gains when you come off. That's not a maybe, that's a You better bet your ass on it. That sets up a dangerous cycle I've seen many times. Come off a cycle where you gained 10 lbs. maybe a little more. Transition into pct and start dropped size and strength. At this point many people go right back on cycle and end up becoming addicted to the need to look a certain way. And they abuse these substances nonstop to reach and maintain their goals.

Also, I'd bet your connective tissue is nowhere ready for the strength gains that can come on cycle. This can lead to expensive injuries that keep you out of the gym for months at a time.

I bet if you spent the next 6 months focusing on diet and training, and I mean total commitment. Making it who the **** you are 24/7 you would be astonished at what you achieve without using gear. And you'd be much better prepared atleast having the knowledge and tools to succeed when you do start.

That gear isn't going to go bad. Put it on a shelf and slow your roll. You'll be glad you did.

Thank you! This is all I wanted in the first place. Saying the whole "do they all prepare this speech before they get here?" can easily be reversed upon those saying "too young, too small, wait wait wait". Give me reasoning not just bullshit.

That being said, your argument was compelling and informative. It makes sense to me and touches on things I hadn't thought about before (connective tissue and probability of injury due to massive increase in weights). All my stuff will be coming in over the next week but Im going to leave it in a secure place and wait. Tentative date for first cycle: September 2013, maybe push it back depending on how I feel. I realize this is still young but it is less young. Small victory.

I will take out the Masteron from the first cycle but I have seen in so many places that deca can be used for a first cycle with vastly increased results than from just t. Unless someone can explain intricately why deca on round 1 is a no-no, I don't see a reason to remove it as long as I am watching myself for sides, taking AI and hcg on cycle and not abusing it.

[Kidengland22]

deca for mass and mast to stay lean. Sorry it doesnt work that way. Your diet determines it all. And i guarantee you dont eat enough or the right things. Why dont you post your diet up.
And way to many things for a first cycle for any age.
And it doesnt matter what size the rest of your family is. You insides dont fully develop to your older. I think they say your brain till your late 20's, your hpta is mid 20's. So just because you may be done growing height wise doesnt mean you are fully developed

Obviously Burger King breakfast lunch and dinner!

No but for real:


8:AM

Omelette: 2 whole eggs, 4 egg whites, cup of oats
Glass of 2% milk apx. 12oz

10AM

Handful roughly of almonds
Scoop of peanut butter
Banana

12PM

12oz chicken breast
Handful of broccoli
One large sweet potato
Glass of OJ

2PM

Protein shake - 32g's protein, 200 calories + whatever the milk adds (combination of all 3 protein types)

4PM

Take my pre workouts then go lift

5:30 ish

Another shake same as above
250mg glutamine
5g creating monohydrate

8 PM

12oz of either steak or turkey or fish rotating ( with steak not being more than 2 times per week)
Brown rice
Vegetable medley (local supermarkets got mega cheap microwave bags with single servings, brilliant stuff)
A scoop or 2 of vanilla Soft serve

10PM

Handful of almonds
Banana
Maybe a cold cuts sandwich with turkey or ham on whole wheat bread

In bed by 12AM


Shit got old real fast until I added some crazy ****ing Indian spices my roommate mom gave me. Mixes things up enough to make it enjoyable every day.

[swm1972]

That's a pretty decent diet in my opinion. Looks so much better then another thread I've been involved in where the guy is telling us a gram of carbs is a gram of carbs and it doesn't matter of it comes from sweet potatoes or jelly sandwiches. Make sure you eat those type of quality foods and of the gains don't come move calories up about 500 and try again. Everyone has a different base metabolic rate. You'll need to figure out where yours is in order to gain. But the components in your diet seem to be of good quality.

Good luck. I think you'll be happy with where you find yourself in the coming days.

[Capebuffalo]

It is a better diet than I have seen from younger people on here. The problem I have is, shakes do not take the place of real food. Don't get me wrong shakes have their place, if that's all you have time for or post workout before you can eat . 10 am I would like to see 10 oz chicken breast and at least a cup of brown rice and green beans.After your post w/o shake 30 min say have 2 5oz London broil soft taco's with kidney beans and cheese. This by no means is a macro measured plan for you but its easy to add to your diet and better than the shakes.

[BenHadasack]

I'm not gonna bore you with stuff about age because you've heard it all already and there's plenty of other people to do that. Personally I wouldn't cycle at your age, but IF you must I would like to give you something to think on:

People get way too hung up on "cutting" steroids and "bulking" steroids, to the point that people think things like "I'll use mast to keep my bf low". That's not how it works. It really is all about diet.

I remember a good example of this from once at a small local comp my brother and some of his buddies were competing in. My brother had just discovered test/Tren/mast and was running those plus fat burners and a small dose of test. His friends I think were on similar stacks. In comes this random country bumpkin out of nowhere and he CRUSHES them. Dude was huge and ripped to the bone. We went out for food after the show and of course my bro and his friends start asking dude about his stack. They started talking about fat burners, Tren, etc and dude didn't even really know what half of it was. His stack? Test, Deca, Anadrol. Before the contest he dieted HARD and came in absolutely shredded.

Moral of the story: diet is key.

[Kidengland22]

That's a pretty decent diet in my opinion. Looks so much better then another thread I've been involved in where the guy is telling us a gram of carbs is a gram of carbs and it doesn't matter of it comes from sweet potatoes or jelly sandwiches. Make sure you eat those type of quality foods and of the gains don't come move calories up about 500 and try again. Everyone has a different base metabolic rate. You'll need to figure out where yours is in order to gain. But the components in your diet seem to be of good quality.

Good luck. I think you'll be happy with where you find yourself in the coming days.

I was up till the real late last night reading EVERYTHING I could on this site and I have come to the conclusion I have a caloric intake problem. My metabolism is practically a straight shoot from my mouth to my ass with no stops in between.In HS I used to have a huge weight or lack off weight problem. I would actually eat burger king 2 times per day with decent sized breakfast and disgustingly greasy caftereia lunch. Still would lose weight. I was 4'10 and 89 pounds freshman year. Got up to 5'9 and 120 by senior year. I looked unhealthy. Even now in college I've finally been able to put on 40 pounds but it's a struggle.

My only concern is upping calories too much and storing excess fat haha since I've always been the skinny boy if I woke up one day and couldn't see my six pack I might cry.

[Capebuffalo]

Sounds like your a hard gainer. Wow that sucks. Hard gainers have it the worst man. Nobody seems to know what its like to eat a lot and not gain. Sad thing is most hard gainers stay like all their life. I know I was a hard gainer most of my life. Always eating this and that with no gains. I think I have an extra fast metabolism. Made it impossible to put on weight. I may have weighed 145-150 when I graduated high school. Man I know where your coming from. Yeah Steroids might be the answer. Thats what I thought to. But I was too young. So you know what I did? Just between you and me...I learned HOW TO ****ING EAT. There is no such thing as a hard gainer. You have to eat a lot and of the right foods. Oh I ate til I was so full 3 meals today. Oh waaa . Learn to eat . Pretty simple.

[swm1972]

But hard gainers don't always stay that way. I had a fast metabolism when I was young. As you age that changes. If you don't workout when those changes come you get fat. If you do you can gain mass easier then you once did.

[Kidengland22]

So I'm just going to play the "stuff my face like a fat bastard" game until I see some noticeable changes. If that's added fat then I'll tone back slowly until I get desired results. Hopefully my metabolism will slow in the coming year.

[ScotchGuard02]

Look up marcus300's post on cycling before 25. I didn't put the link here deliberately. If you're serious, you'll look it up.

[Capebuffalo]

Look its not stuffing fat bastard style. You are eating more food but its good quality healthy food.. And let me be honest with my own experience. It will take a while. Eat take a little break eat again. I couldn't eat the quantity I wanted starting out. You stomach over time will stretch. A friend of mine is 292 today. I ask him one time how the hell he could eat so much. He told me drinking over a gallon of water a day( now he built up to that over time) stretches the stomach and over time will allow you to eat seriously. Broscience? Hes 292 maybe 10% bf. Take it for what its worth.

[Kidengland22]

Look up marcus300's post on cycling before 25. I didn't put the link here deliberately. If you're serious, you'll look it up.

If you are talking about "The young and steroids" post under educational, yes I have read it, several times actually. I'll note he says some people do stop developing at 21, but others continue until 25. It's really a broad spectrum that differs person to person. How do I know if I have stopped developing or not? Best way I can tell is get blood work drawn on a regular schedule 4-6 months. When numbers decline for two consecutive tests, I am not going any higher and can therefore not bugger up myself up, theoretically.

[Kidengland22]

Look its not stuffing fat bastard style. You are eating more food but its good quality healthy food.. And let me be honest with my own experience. It will take a while. Eat take a little break eat again. I couldn't eat the quantity I wanted starting out. You stomach over time will stretch. A friend of mine is 292 today. I ask him one time how the hell he could eat so much. He told me drinking over a gallon of water a day( now he built up to that over time) stretches the stomach and over time will allow you to eat seriously. Broscience? Hes 292 maybe 10% bf. Take it for what its worth.

Oh I understand. Apologies if my fat bastard comment made it sound like I was going to scoff down deep fried ice cream with extra lard on top. I simply meant I might need to move near a chicken farm with the amount of poultry and egg whites I'm going to attempt to devour.

[Capebuffalo]

ummm fried ice cream

[Kidengland22]

ummm fried ice cream

You have never heard of deep fried ice cream? It's good shit dude.

Take a ball of ice cream, it has to be freezing still, no melting. Dip it in tempura batter then throw it in a deep fryer for 20-30 seconds. Take it out and you have a ball of crispy tempura batter with still frozen ice cream inside. Top with caramel and chocolate sauce. Devour. Be happy.

[Capebuffalo]

You have never heard of deep fried ice cream? It's good shit dude.

Take a ball of ice cream, it has to be freezing still, no melting. Dip it in tempura batter then throw it in a deep fryer for 20-30 seconds. Take it out and you have a ball of crispy tempura batter with still frozen ice cream inside. Top with caramel and chocolate sauce. Devour. Be happy.

Look you silly bastard. My great grandfather invented fried ice cream. But his brother stole the idea and patented it. Of course I know what fried ice cream is. Mmmmmm means good where I'm from. You were killing me with that since I was about to have round 2 of baked chicken and rice just like every other f ing day. Yes mmmm

[rasc170]

That's a pretty decent diet in my opinion. Looks so much better then another thread I've been involved in where the guy is telling us a gram of carbs is a gram of carbs and it doesn't matter of it comes from sweet potatoes or jelly sandwiches. Make sure you eat those type of quality foods and of the gains don't come move calories up about 500 and try again. Everyone has a different base metabolic rate. You'll need to figure out where yours is in order to gain. But the components in your diet seem to be of good quality.

Good luck. I think you'll be happy with where you find yourself in the coming days.

a carb is a carb and a calorie is a calorie. It doesnt matter in terms of body composition. I'd be more than happy to debate this with you and provide scientific studies that back this claim up over and over again.

[KINGKONG]

I didnt even read everyone else post..Just yours..Your gonna do what your gonna do, but first cycle I would do strickly straight test enth dont think you have to run any AI's..Those chem's are worse for you than AS IMO..Have some nolva on hand in case you start feeling that itch..Youll know..Run a 12 week cycle and pound the good foods Iam sure youve got your diet mapped out and you should have no problem putting on serious mass on a first cycle with correct training and diet..Remember diet is much more important than chem's and hormones..My body reacts different for every substance I use..It's nice to start with a test base figure out how to handle that and see the difference in AS as far as mental and physical results one at a time..

[KINGKONG]

a carb is a carb and a calorie is a calorie. It doesnt matter in terms of body composition. I'd be more than happy to debate this with you and provide scientific studies that back this claim up over and over again.

Iam not debating you but you dont think the glyclemic index of a certain carb might make it a better choice for muscle composition?If used in a way to promote muscle growth...Like quick carbs after workouts and etc. etc.?

[rasc170]

^^^ No i do not

[swm1972]

^^^ No i do not

Then you don't have a clue what you are talking about. Simple carbs convert to sugars. Sugars release insulin. Insulin causes fat accumulation. Therefore simple carbs and complex carbs are not equal in the results they provide to the body. You eat cookies. I will keep eating oatmeal and sweet potatoes. Guess which of us will get fat?

Or do you think bodybuilders eat like this because it's fun? Proof is in results. Show me a bodybuilder that endorses a diet of a carb is a carb. Good luck finding one. Scientific data, huh? Science tells us we need minimal amounts of protein in our diets. Bodybuilders often exceed 300 grams a day. While a small protein diet will sustain you it won't give you optimal gains. That is what this is about to us. You can survive off cookies. But it won't get me where I'm trying to get in my body development.

Post your scientific data and USDA food pyramids so we can all get a good laugh at your expense.

[rasc170]

Then you don't have a clue what you are talking about. Simple carbs convert to sugars. Sugars release insulin. Insulin causes fat accumulation. Therefore simple carbs and complex carbs are not equal in the results they provide to the body. You eat cookies. I will keep eating oatmeal and sweet potatoes. Guess which of us will get fat?

Or do you think bodybuilders eat like this because it's fun? Proof is in results. Show me a bodybuilder that endorses a diet of a carb is a carb. Good luck finding one. Scientific data, huh? Science tells us we need minimal amounts of protein in our diets. Bodybuilders often exceed 300 grams a day. While a small protein diet will sustain you it won't give you optimal gains. That is what this is about to us. You can survive off cookies. But it won't get me where I'm trying to get in my body development.

Post your scientific data and USDA food pyramids so we can all get a good laugh at your expense.

I won't argue about it with you in someone else's thread, but you believe What every juicer tells you? I bet you still eat every 3 hours to stroke the metabolic fire.....Lol. Oh and on my cut I've eaten cheesecake and Ben and Jerry's ice cream every night and I guarantee I'm leaner than u. Make a thread and watch me crush you

[swm1972]

I won't argue about it with you in someone else's thread, but you believe What every juicer tells you? I bet you still eat every 3 hours to stroke the metabolic fire.....Lol. Oh and on my cut I've eaten cheesecake and Ben and Jerry's ice cream every night and I guarantee I'm leaner than u. Make a thread and watch me crush you

Leaner maybe. Bigger doubt it. You want to be an Abercrombie model wannabe go for it son. I am not interested in your half cocked theories. I am speaking from experience. A person that once was obese and knows personally what dietary changes do to the human body. Losing 100 lbs in a year and a couple months. Going on a quality diet and exercise program and gaining a lean 15lbs natural in approx 12 months. Finally hitting gear and going from 205 @ 15% fat and cycling up to 260lbs @ 12-15% year round.

You won't get there with your eat ice cream and cookies crap. Of course you wouldn't know that because you haven't ever been there. Everyone that has achieved what I speak of knows exactly the dietary sacrifices that must be made to get there.

Eating every couple hours has nothing to do with stoking the metabolic fire, it's about pacing myself so I can get the 4000 calories a day i strive for while not resorting to eating absolute shit to get there.

The only thing you can crush is the soda can and empty Doritos bag you just finished.

[KINGKONG]

Had a long night last night...LOL I always beleived eating clean was were it's at..Iam always interested in hearing others opinions though..

[rasc170]

[QUOTE=KINGKONG;6059384]

Leaner maybe. Bigger doubt it. You want to be an Abercrombie model wannabe go for it son. I am not interested in your half cocked theories. I am speaking from experience. A person that once was obese and knows personally what dietary changes do to the human body. Losing 100 lbs in a year and a couple months. Going on a quality diet and exercise program and gaining a lean 15lbs natural in approx 12 months. Finally hitting gear and going from 205 @ 15% fat and cycling up to 260lbs @ 12-15% year round.

You won't get there with your eat ice cream and cookies crap. Of course you wouldn't know that because you haven't ever been there. Everyone that has achieved what I speak of knows exactly the dietary sacrifices that must be made to get there.
I gotta see this debate but, swm everything your saying is what Ive learned in 15 years bodybuilding..Iam just always glad to listen to others opinion..
get it on boys

look tubby....im not gonna argue with you itt. If you wanna make a thread calling me out, then i'll crush you....actually yes like the can of coke im drinking right now. What you said doesnt even make sense. If anything it would be difficult to get lean eating sugar and candy. All i gotta say is i'd rather listen to alan aragon and layne norton. You know....guys who have phds in the field and actually get paid to do this shit. I think instead of arguing with you im just gonna leave a few of these here.

It's not possible to get anywhere eating ice cream? A pint of ben and jerrys goes into this dude EVERY SINGLE FUKIN NIGHT! He looks better than you and he's natty. LOL @ being on gear and 12% Bodyfat being your leanest....strong fail tubby.





profile page:http://bodyspace.bodybuilding.com/PBateman2b2w/

im not even gonna bother going on with this. Make a thread about this and see how you have your ass handed to you.

BRB ronnie coleman eats "clean" therefore it means I must do the same herpy derpy derrppp.

I'll say it again.....A carb is a carb and a calorie is a calorie. I dare you to try and prove me wrong