Change synthetic oil every 6,000kms (3700 miles)? Or...?

[Atomini]

Quick couple questions as to everyone's opinions on here on oil changes.

I know cars well, and I do most of the work on my car myself (thanks to a lot of knowledge i've picked up from army buddys who are vehicle technicians in the military). But, what's the general deal on oil longevity before the next oil change? I hear allll kinds of different things now a days. I always use synthetic, always change my oil every 3 months or every 6,000kms (or 3700 miles for you American folks), or whichever comes first. I

First Q is: I just had an oil change on my car last week, and I brought half a jug of synthetic 5W30 I had left over at home, told the mechanic to throw that in there. So he did, but it wasn't enough so he added more. I didn't see what he put in there, but I saw it was synthetic (he's an awesome buddy of mine, lets me hang around the shop to watch all the work he's doing). On the windshield sticker, however, he wrote "10W30"? WTF? I didn't notice this until today. Even if it was 10W30 of the extra he poured in, the oil is mixed?

Second Q: Really necessary to change it out every 6000kms (3700 miles)? I've never done anything other than that so far in my life, but i'm just curious. I hear stuff like "modern cars, etc. you can change it every 20,000 miles". Whaaat? Isn't that extremely excessive? Every oil change, my oil was a light amber color by the time I took it in. I even throw Seafoam into my crankcase oil and run it along the highway before changing the oil to get the engine extra clean and the dip stick still doesn't get that much darker. But, at 20,000 miles... wouldn't it look like tar!? Costs me $30 for an oil change at my buddy's shop, so it doesn't matter to me but i'm curious about all these claims of "you don't need to change your oil anywhere near as frequently as you think, especially if you use synthetic".

[Atomini]

Oh, and i'm doing 75% of the time highway driving.

[gixxerboy1]

5000-6000miles is safe and pretty much the standard of new cars.
i know some cars that say 12000 miles a oil change. my bimmer is one of them. But it hold alot more oil then a typical 6 cyl. but i still never go that long. Its worth the money to change it

[DanB]

Mabey i missed this

But what do you drive

And how do you drive it?

This is main factor here

[Times Roman]

have to disagree.

synthetic oil is designed to NOT break down. It can easy go 10k miles. Easily more. Especially on the highway.

next is the oil filter. A good quality filter traps the dirt/particles floating around in there, so if it is doing it's job, this too can last quite a long time.

Finally, a magnetic oil plug will trap the metal particles from rings, etc. that have worn.

and besides, changing oil too frequently is bad for the environment.

and something for you to read:
http://www.ehow.com/about_6371268_do...il-change.html

"Change Frequency

Most oil and car warranties will put the maximum length of mileage before a change at 7,500 for petroleum-based products (many cars are closer to 5,000 even with today's better engines). Given the heat-tolerance properties of synthetic oil, 7,500 miles is not an issue. That said, oil-changing frequency is a personal and financial decision as well."

[gixxerboy1]

^^^i heard from alot of bimmer owners that people have issues going the recommended 12k. if you pull the valve cover there will be sludge. Thats using synthetic

[Eddie_m63]

I also read that once you do synthetics you can't go back to the regular stuff.

[Atomini]

Mabey i missed this

But what do you drive

And how do you drive it?

This is main factor here

I drive a 2003 Toyota Corolla, 1.8L 4cyl with a K&N air intake on it, and Magnaflow performance exhaust with DC Sport headers. I have been fantasizing about installing a bolt-on turbo kit in it. PLEASE DON'T LAUGH AT ME! It's just a fantasy i've had for a while now, I may or may not do it lol.

My driving is moderate. I put on about 1200kms (745 miles) per month on it. 75% highway driving. If I drive conservatively, I can get 650 - 700km (403 - 435 miles) out of a full tank, and that's mixed city and highway driving. A 100% highway trip gets me a lot more mileage out of a tank, of course.

I also read that once you do synthetics you can't go back to the regular stuff.

This sounds absurd. Where'd you read that? What were the reasons given?

[DanB]

Mabey i missed this

But what do you drive

And how do you drive it?

This is main factor here

Again this is main factor

You crawl in prius then you prob get 20k

You hammer a m5 or evo fq 400 (they recommend 4k i think in fact) id change at 5k

Interested to hear from FFM, DCI, Loybyts.....

[DanB]

I drive a 2003 Toyota Corolla, 1.8L 4cyl with a K&N air intake on it, and Magnaflow performance exhaust with DC Sport headers. I have been fantasizing about installing a bolt-on turbo kit in it. PLEASE DON'T LAUGH AT ME! It's just a fantasy i've had for a while now, I may or may not do it lol.

My driving is moderate. I put on about 1200kms (745 miles) per month on it. 75% highway driving. If I drive conservatively, I can get 650 - 700km (403 - 435 miles) out of a full tank, and that's mixed city and highway driving. A 100% highway trip gets me a lot more mileage out of a tank, of course.

This sounds absurd. Where'd you read that? What were the reasons given?

If you get it cheap then do it but personally Id have no problem leaving it 10k plus with that car and driving style

I think the recommended service is 15k intervals at the earliest?

What sounded absurb lol

[Atomini]

If you get it cheap then do it but personally Id have no problem leaving it 10k plus with that car and driving style

I think the recommended service is 15k intervals at the earliest?

What sounded absurb lol

When you say 10k plus, you're saying oil change every 10k or more? Sounds a bit much to me. It wouldn't hurt to just push it to that once and see how it goes.

The thing I was referring to as absurd is what another poster above said about how if you use synthetic, you can't go back to regular oil.

[DanB]

When you say 10k plus, you're saying oil change every 10k or more? Sounds a bit much to me. It wouldn't hurt to just push it to that once and see how it goes.

The thing I was referring to as absurd is what another poster above said about how if you use synthetic, you can't go back to regular oil.

Oh ok lol

I just baseing that on alot of new models like bmw merc audi etc and they recommend 15k minimum service and japs are known for reliability

My mate has a brand new A6 and think it gets serviced every 30k according to audi, I'll double check but it definately in that region

[Far from massive]

Oil changes at 10-15k miles are fine to get your car past warranty, then when the engines fairly worn at 100-150k miles the manufacturer can sell more cars...this is their interest. Changing oil is great at 3k miles its the best thing for your engine..and the oil companies...its far from needed with synthetics or even conventional oils on highway milage cars.

As said a TOP quality oil filter is very important for extended milage oil changes. With that said an engine, in great shape, being driven on the highway will go 5-6 k miles on an oil change (synthetic 6k or conventional 5k) no problem whatsoever, if you change your oil at this frequency with a good synthetic and good filter you can expect 200000 miles without any major wear issues on a modern car. As far as viscosity breakdown due to degradation of the polymer chain, it is true that synthetics will not loose their multigrade viscosity nearly as fast as conventional oils, however the additive package will still be subject to the same rules as conventional oil...this is why the 10-15 k mile changes are a bunch of crap and car owners are finding sludge and cam, valve tip and ring/cyl wear (not to mention emissions due to poorly performing oil rings).

Enjoy and keep using your synthetic oil and top grade filter if you like to have your cars engines lower end perform as well at 100k miles as it did new (valve springs will loose tension even with synthetic although it even helps them by reducing the spring temperature as well as friction at high rpm due to spring surge)

PS I am an ASE master technician and have built and tuned engines up to 2800hp.

[DanB]

^^^^^

The final comment is exactly why i wanted your opinion

I aint the op but thanks for the info all the same

[Times Roman]

Mates,
just to show you an extreme example, i bought a little toyota ttruck new. changed the oil/filter every year, whether it needed it or not. I had over 400,000 miles on it when i finally got rid of it. And i did not run a synthetic.

I think people grossly underestimate how many miles their oil is good for.

[Atomini]

Oil changes at 10-15k miles are fine to get your car past warranty, then when the engines fairly worn at 100-150k miles the manufacturer can sell more cars...this is their interest. Changing oil is great at 3k miles its the best thing for your engine..and the oil companies...its far from needed with synthetics or even conventional oils on highway milage cars.

As said a TOP quality oil filter is very important for extended milage oil changes. With that said an engine, in great shape, being driven on the highway will go 5-6 k miles on an oil change (synthetic 6k or conventional 5k) no problem whatsoever, if you change your oil at this frequency with a good synthetic and good filter you can expect 200000 miles without any major wear issues on a modern car. As far as viscosity breakdown due to degradation of the polymer chain, it is true that synthetics will not loose their multigrade viscosity nearly as fast as conventional oils, however the additive package will still be subject to the same rules as conventional oil...this is why the 10-15 k mile changes are a bunch of crap and car owners are finding sludge and cam, valve tip and ring/cyl wear (not to mention emissions due to poorly performing oil rings).

Enjoy and keep using your synthetic oil and top grade filter if you like to have your cars engines lower end perform as well at 100k miles as it did new (valve springs will loose tension even with synthetic although it even helps them by reducing the spring temperature as well as friction at high rpm due to spring surge)

PS I am an ASE master technician and have built and tuned engines up to 2800hp.

Excellent info, thanks!!! I have always done it at 6000-7000kms (approx 3000 miles), never had an issue, always believed it was the best thing for the engine!

Side question: don't know if you noticed earlier, but I mentioned its always been an idea in the back of my head to boost my Corolla. I originally wanted the TRD Supercharger but as you may know, its been discontinued for my model for a very long time now. Had an opportunity to grab one used on ebay once but it slipped away. Now i'm thinking of a bolt on turbo, and my eye is on the one here:

http://www.turbo-kits.com/corolla_tu...html#turbokits

Scroll down to 'Turbo Kit for 03 - 08 Corolla S 1ZZ-FE', the $2695 one. What are your thoughts? I'm just looking to add an extra 50hp or so... maybe 4-6 PSI. Obviously don't want to blow the engine or vastly increase wear. And I understand that for the money paid for a kit like that, one might think its a waste of money to not try and get ALL of the power out of the kit. But other than that obvious thought, what are your thoughts? Good/bad/safe/doable? Just don't laugh at me for wanting to boost a Corolla lol.

[gixxerboy1]

how many miles are on the car that you want to turbo?

[Shol'va]

Here is my take on this:
When running standard oil in your car or truck I always change both filter and oil every 3,000 miles.
When running fully synthetic oil then I change it every 5,000 miles
My reason for this is that I never ever let the oil darken showing signs of breakdown and dirt in the oil.
so whenever someone checks my dipstick, the oil is always nice and clean.
I also believe this helps keep all parts clean and clear of any potential sludge buildup.
I prefer Full synthetic over regular oil as it clings to all the metal parts soaking into them where there is very minimal wear on the motor during the critical start ups, as that is when most wear is usually done on your motor since after the engine sits a while when not in use the oils drains off the parts back into the oil pan so when you first crank over the motor it takes a few seconds to get the oil back up lubricating the motor and since the synthetic holds onto the metal at a greater rate that regular, those coated parts are protected from wear much better.

I know the recommended miles to change are much higher than my actual oil changes, but it is my preference to keep the oil cleaner between changes and if you can afford to do that, I think it's a good idea.

[warchild]

i run amsoil full synthetic signature series and their oil filter so i change it every start of summer which is around 10000 miles.

[Bryan2]

You have to build your engine or your gonna blow it dude, just a matter of time...


Reinforced head/pistons and a new timing belt are a must. Get decent parts ie:waste gate and blow off valve and dont half ass a turbo or you will be sorry. I often times see peoples timing belt slip after throwing on a turbo and there timing advance way to much and crack the head. When you putting that much pressure on an engine that is made to be naturally aspirated your gonna have a bad time....

[BengalWoman]

I have my Lexus ES350 changed at 5,000 miles with synthetic. Maybe it's not needed that often?

[Shol'va]

I have my Lexus ES350 changed at 5,000 miles with synthetic. Maybe it's not needed that often?

You are fine with the every 5,000 mile change with full synthetic. As I said above cleaner oil is better and every 5k oil change will keep your internal parts running cleaner and clearer providing you with many thousands of happy motoring miles. You can get by with pushing further, but if you can afford it keep the same program you are on at every 5k. What you might want to try is going a little further like 7500 miles between changes if cost is a factor, but if not let it go like you are. I change all my vehicles with synthetic at 5k intervals.

[BengalWoman]

Thank you Shol'va. No problem with doing it every 5,000 but I just wondered if it was overdoing it since synthetic oil is apparently "that much better".

[Hitman]

I change my oils every 5000k/4-5 months with full syn 10/40, only because both cars are modified V8's. For something like a 4 banger toyota it would be lucky to see semi-syn oil.And just touching on service intervals for fluids etc..dont read alot into those guide lines or else some manufacturers would have you NEVER changing gearbox or Diff fluids.They are so called "sealed units" that never need changing.Ford and Holden(GM) is guilty of this.

[DCI]

I'd do it every 6k miles personally. And filter, and once you get used to it its cool. The sludge thing is more due to the fact that the oil is really old and not changed as regularly as it should be. I run a company car and a my own personal car. Alsoe the sludge thing, can be the incorrect oil used, try and get a low sulphur oil if you are running a high power diesel. The company always goes over the rec service schedule by a good 2k or 3k miles and no ill effects yet but in saying that it's serivced 5 times a year with the mileage I do so I'd imagine it will go kaboom sometime after the lease agreement is gone.

I have a friend with a petrol Alfa with over 252k miles on the clock and other than belts, a clutch and oil filters it has not needed anything and this is due to the advice that the lads have said above. A decent filter, generally one from the big brands are just as good as the OEM ones as they make them for the car makers. And a good quality oil, what I do is I buy oil in bulk normally 10 gallon drums of it, works out way cheaper when you are doing your own servicing etc.

[DSM4Life]

Quick couple questions as to everyone's opinions on here on oil changes.

I know cars well, and I do most of the work on my car myself (thanks to a lot of knowledge i've picked up from army buddys who are vehicle technicians in the military). But, what's the general deal on oil longevity before the next oil change? I hear allll kinds of different things now a days. I always use synthetic, always change my oil every 3 months or every 6,000kms (or 3700 miles for you American folks), or whichever comes first. I

First Q is: I just had an oil change on my car last week, and I brought half a jug of synthetic 5W30 I had left over at home, told the mechanic to throw that in there. So he did, but it wasn't enough so he added more. I didn't see what he put in there, but I saw it was synthetic (he's an awesome buddy of mine, lets me hang around the shop to watch all the work he's doing). On the windshield sticker, however, he wrote "10W30"? WTF? I didn't notice this until today. Even if it was 10W30 of the extra he poured in, the oil is mixed?

Second Q: Really necessary to change it out every 6000kms (3700 miles)? I've never done anything other than that so far in my life, but i'm just curious. I hear stuff like "modern cars, etc. you can change it every 20,000 miles". Whaaat? Isn't that extremely excessive? Every oil change, my oil was a light amber color by the time I took it in. I even throw Seafoam into my crankcase oil and run it along the highway before changing the oil to get the engine extra clean and the dip stick still doesn't get that much darker. But, at 20,000 miles... wouldn't it look like tar!? Costs me $30 for an oil change at my buddy's shop, so it doesn't matter to me but i'm curious about all these claims of "you don't need to change your oil anywhere near as frequently as you think, especially if you use synthetic".

1) Is it going to damage the motor that he topped off the oil with 10W30? No. Different weight is used for different weather conditions.

2)Check your car manual. We all know that people on the internet are always smarter then the person who created the motor right? Well, it always seems that way. Anyway check your manual and do what they recommend. Ex. I use to change my oil every 3K on the money (old school method). I bought a new car and read the manual and with the new motor they now say "change every 5000 miles." Now I do just that, every 5000. My partner bought a new car and in his manual they say "change oil every 10K!" sure enough now we change that oil every 10K. Now if you do go 10K I still recommend checking the levels periodically.

Don't put any additives in a car. IMO 99% of them are BS. Most are useful for special driver conditions/racing.

[Far from massive]

Hello Atomi,

Just got back to the thread, as Bryan said adding a power adder always puts more strain on intermal parts. 50 hp is a fairly substantial increase on an engine this size. However since you will be running a kit with an intercooler this will keep the boost comparitivly low (at the same power level) as charge temps decrease resultant cylinder pressure will not be as great and burn rates will be kept under control hence pressure spikes will be less as the pressure rise will be spread over more degrees of crankshaft rotation. This in turn will decrease wear on pistons, wristpins, bearings and valves and the chance of headgasket failure will also be much less ( this is of course in comparison to a non-intercooled application).

Now what I don't know ( I really have very little experience with kits like this ) is how well the kit is designed as far as the skill in keeping the fuel/air ratio and timing curve where they should be. This is fairly easy on a drag race engine, less easy on a road race engine and a bitch on a street engine as you have so many different driving/operating conditions. How well this is addressed by the AEM stuff will make or break the enjoyment as well as livability of the whole kit. Also another thing to do is to look to see what kind of changes they made on the turbo motor offered by the factory as well as any inherent weaknesses in the engine design. Lots of stock engines can handle 8-10 lbs of boost no problems others will blow head gaskets etc. at 5 lbs., sadly there are no hard and fast rules on this (like Japanese is fine, US is junk LOL) its is dependent on a lot of variables. A good resource for you will probably be toyotaforums just keep in mind there are 100 internet warriors for every 1 guy who knows his stuff.


Good luck,

FFM

[< <Samson> >]

Depending on certain conditions. . . Not even reading the rest.

One, does your car sit? My Camaro sits a lot, I change oil every 1,500 miles. Which is six months in between. All dino oil, fvck synthetic for an older car. . . I don't need extra leaks and it is a pure waste of money. . . But:If you car is newer and has been started with sythetic at a low mileage and age, or came with it. I'd run just fine and change at 5k.

If your car is a total DD, swap either syn on dino oil at 5k.


These are real facts, not shop BS or any other pitch.

And yeah, change your oil. It really is necessary like people say it is.

[dec11]

if its a performance motor and you drive it like you stole it, then every 3000 miles. normal car, 6000 miles is plenty

btw, those 'cleaning' agents are a bad idea, they perish seals........

[lovbyts]

I agree with most everyone else, 6000+ is fine and the norm now days but more important even that what oil you use I think and has been mentioned is the filter. DONT use a FRAM filter, they are CRAP. Look at some of the youtube videos on oil filter assemblies and how fram is the worst. I typically use Wix or Amsoil filters.

Mixing with other weights is no big deal, especially to top it off and only once in a while also.

If you have a turbo you do know the most important thing is to make sure you let the car idle and the turbos are spun down (not spinning) for a good couple of minutes to let them cool off before turning off the engine and the oil flow?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XRRgw...eature=related

[< <Samson> >]

If you have a turbo you do know the most important thing is to make sure you let the car idle and the turbos are spun down (not spinning) for a good couple of minutes to let them cool off before turning off the engine and the oil flow

Almost forgot, but yes very true. Turbo cars a bit different, you would be better off using syn over dyno since the car is most likely newer anyway. Also, change it as often as you like. 3k is perfectly fine, 5k is kinda pushing it. But, still depends on the driving style.

[DCI]

If you have a turbo you do know the most important thing is to make sure you let the car idle and the turbos are spun down (not spinning) for a good couple of minutes to let them cool off before turning off the engine and the oil flow?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XRRgw...eature=related

I'm a bit 50/50 on this one. It's more EGT's that kill turbos imo. Than just the turning off of the engine. If that was the case all subarus and evos would be having turbo failure as a good few of the general public don't know anything about turbos or how they even work. If you drive the car hard and the exhaust is translucent after driving it then yes let the turbos cool down but for normal non sprited driving I'd say you would be ok just turning the engine off. New modern engines all have high pressure small turbos and I haven't heard much of them exploding just yet or turbo's letting go. Mainly, if they do it's due to the lack of maintaince on the car etc.

[DanB]

I'm a bit 50/50 on this one. It's more EGT's that kill turbos imo. Than just the turning off of the engine. If that was the case all subarus and evos would be having turbo failure as a good few of the general public don't know anything about turbos or how they even work. If you drive the car hard and the exhaust is translucent after driving it then yes let the turbos cool down but for normal non sprited driving I'd say you would be ok just turning the engine off. New modern engines all have high pressure small turbos and I haven't heard much of them exploding just yet or turbo's letting go. Mainly, if they do it's due to the lack of maintaince on the car etc.

So turbo timer to play it safe yeah?

Matter of interest bro what do you make of audi recommendation of 25k service and no mention of oil change sooner?

[DCI]

Yeh, or the cheaper option is to do what Lovbyts said My buddy does it in his GTR Skyline after a heavy drive but on normal occasions just turns off the engine, sure when you drive them light they are barely hitting positive boost in them if you keep them below 3k revs.

Emm, this long life oil shit? I dunno, you need to use the correct weight and low sulphur oil if it is a diesel. And with the diesel over here I'd be changing it more regularly imo. The Company car gets its oil serviced at the reccomended intervals but that is still at 12k miles and I do drive it hard but it seems ok. But in saying that it get serivced about every 3 months.

[Atomini]

I'm taking notes. This is awesome info here.

But now i'm afraid to bolt-on turbo my car.

[DCI]

Don't be worried putting the turbo onto the car at all. Just make sure, who is doing the mapping of the engine is good and knows what they are at. Also, make sure you have all the correct, Fuel pumps, injectors, front mount and head work(if it's needed) to accomadate the turbo. Lots of cars take well to turbo's, as an example, honda B series engines seem to take very to them and also the LS series of the GM engines but Superchargers are more common place in them.

Just make sure you use good oil and filters as Lovbyts said and maybe if you drive it hard a lot reduce the intervals between changing the oil etc.

Oil and filters are cheap a rebuild isn't generally.

[Mark5]

I use a full synthetic AMSOIL which claims to allow up to 15,000 miles or 1 year per oil change, though I will probably change it at the 7,500 mark simply because I baby my car.

[Far from massive]

On turbo's and oiling.

While you bring up a very good point on allowing the car to idle before shutoff and not shutting off a turbo at speed this is not because the turbo is spinning at idle, a turbo is always spinning thousands of rpm when the motor is running.

The main issue with high speed shutdown is that when under load the turbine on exhaust side of the turbocharger under load is red hot. If you shut it down in this condition the heat from the turbine is conducted to the shaft and the bearing surfaces where it cooks the oil onto the shaft ( what happens is the oil looses it volatile fractions in a process actually called coking ) leaving an abrasive carbon coating (coke) which will destroy the oil seal and shaft bearing paticularly if a conventional sleeve bearing is used. This will lead to oil entering the exhaust section of the turbo and destruction of the turbo and catalytic converter. To prevent this a period of idling to allow for the dissapation of the heat before shut off is recommended. Also devices like turbo timers that insure an idling period and oiling devices that pump oil through the bearing after shutdown will help with this situation, also in a naturally the more heat resistant an oil is the less coking will occur so a synthetic will get the job done better than conventional oil.

FFM

PS also agree 100% FRAM filters suck, Wix Racing is a great cartridge type filter for racing, all I ever use. For regular use there are many good choices and they vary car to car, main things to always check are to make sure the filter contains all valves that the original equipment filter did, that the case and base are made of thick metal, that there is no cardboard used anywhere inside the filter, and that the base gasket is preferably a captive O-ring not a flat ring. While this will not show you the internal construction of the filter the cheap ones will be thin and light as thicker housings and bases as well as O-rings cost more money and will not be incorporated on junk filters.

[Atomini]

Don't be worried putting the turbo onto the car at all. Just make sure, who is doing the mapping of the engine is good and knows what they are at. Also, make sure you have all the correct, Fuel pumps, injectors, front mount and head work(if it's needed) to accomadate the turbo. Lots of cars take well to turbo's, as an example, honda B series engines seem to take very to them and also the LS series of the GM engines but Superchargers are more common place in them.

Just make sure you use good oil and filters as Lovbyts said and maybe if you drive it hard a lot reduce the intervals between changing the oil etc.

Oil and filters are cheap a rebuild isn't generally.

Okay, but the suggestions earlier about rienforcing/rebuilding the engine with rienforced heads/pistons, timing belts, etc? Remember, all I want to do is get an extra decent amount of horse, not try to get everything I possibly can out of the turbo. That would blow my engine for sure... remember, its a 1.8L 4cyl.

[DCI]

2ZZ-GE, this is the engine code of your car I assume, it is the high lift cam ie the 190bhp car? Or is it the 140bhp? Just make sure the lifter bolts are ok on the car as they have a habbit of them going kaboom.

I have seen these engine turbo'd before, with internals(Conrods/Pistons), FMIC, and injectors and Ecu to run all this they come in and around 350-400bhp depending on the turbo used. You are in the right place though as most of the aftermarket parts to turbo these engines is in the US. Toyota has also produced an OEM version of this engine with a supercharger, but I don't think ye go it over in the US, it was namely for the UK and Japanse markets.

Just because it is a 1.8 don't assume it will blow straight away, a lot engines blow generally due to lack of maintaince or abuse or just bad workmanship when the engine is being built or even bad fuel it's a number of things really. The engine in the turbo MR2's which is also fitted to the ST205 GT Fours are good for 600+bhp with the right internal work to them done etc but with that kinda bhp the drivability is kinda gone in them, they just work at high revs and have a terrible power band.