16 week PRE COMP cutting cycle: Test prop, Masteron, Anavar [advice needed]

[RyanGreg]

Some information about myself..

Age: 24
Years bodybuilding: 5
Height: 5'10
Weight: 195
Body fat percentage: currently 11-12% (have dieted down to 6% before)

I have entered 2 bodybuilding comps in the past, this will be my 3rd. My first comp i placed 2nd and most recent comp i took out 1st place. This time i want to step things up. (no drug testing at this comp).

The cycle i will be running.

cycle:

test prop 100mg EOD (16 weeks)
Masteron 150mg EOD (last 10 weeks)
Anavar 50mg ED (last 8 weeks)
Aromasin 12.5mg ED (16 weeks) (4 weeks in PCT also)
hcg 250iu 2x per week (last 10 weeks of cycle)

PCT:

Clomid 25/25/25/25 (4 weeks)
Nolva 40/40/20/20 (4 weeks)
Unleashed/post cycle combo (4 weeks)
Aromasin 12.5mg (4 weeks)
DAA powder (8 weeks)
Tribulus (8 weeks)

Any advice would be great.

Thanks.

[Sworder]

16 weeks of prop.. You don't like enanthate or cyp?

[Noles12]

16 weeks of prop.. You don't like enanthate or cyp?

Longer esters can lead to more bloat. This is not ideal in bodybuilding.

I do feel though that one can run a longer ester then transition the last few weeks to a shorter ester

[Metalject]

Longer esters can lead to more bloat. This is not ideal in bodybuilding.

I do feel though that one can run a longer ester then transition the last few weeks to a shorter ester

This is a common myth that's been spread around for a long time. Esters do not affect water retention. The testosterone hormone does not become active in the body until the hormone cleaves off the ester, so regardless of the ester that existed in the beginning, the same hormone is in the body once there's no ester.

Personally, I know a lot of guys who stick with Enanthate or Cypionate all the way through to their contest. A lot of them, however, will inject it on an every other day basis in smaller doses rather than 1-2 large doses per wk. This seems to help out with maintaining peaked levels due to the short burst of testosterone compounds like Enanthate bring in the first 48hrs before the stable off to a slower release over the next few weeks. It also seems to help control side effects a little more...why, I'm not entirely sure, only have theories.

[Lunk1]

This is a common myth that's been spread around for a long time. Esters do not affect water retention. The testosterone hormone does not become active in the body until the hormone cleaves off the ester, so regardless of the ester that existed in the beginning, the same hormone is in the body once there's no ester.

Personally, I know a lot of guys who stick with Enanthate or Cypionate all the way through to their contest. A lot of them, however, will inject it on an every other day basis in smaller doses rather than 1-2 large doses per wk. This seems to help out with maintaining peaked levels due to the short burst of testosterone compounds like Enanthate bring in the first 48hrs before the stable off to a slower release over the next few weeks. It also seems to help control side effects a little more...why, I'm not entirely sure, only have theories.

Thank you for saying the same thing I have been trying to say for a while on here. I don't get this "I bloat on E but not on prop" Hogwash!

[Noles12]

This is a common myth that's been spread around for a long time. Esters do not affect water retention. The testosterone hormone does not become active in the body until the hormone cleaves off the ester, so regardless of the ester that existed in the beginning, the same hormone is in the body once there's no ester.

Personally, I know a lot of guys who stick with Enanthate or Cypionate all the way through to their contest. A lot of them, however, will inject it on an every other day basis in smaller doses rather than 1-2 large doses per wk. This seems to help out with maintaining peaked levels due to the short burst of testosterone compounds like Enanthate bring in the first 48hrs before the stable off to a slower release over the next few weeks. It also seems to help control side effects a little more...why, I'm not entirely sure, only have theories.

I agree with this.

The ester has nothing to do with the bloat but rather the pinning frequency that comes along with it. THe longer esters are often pinned biweekly as you said, causing a large increase in testosterone followed by leveling off the a very large spike again a few days later, This fluctuation can bring about the bloat seen with the compound. With a more frequent pinning schedule and smaller doses per pin, the hormone levels remain more stable leading to less unwanted sides. THis is often why shorter esters are used due to their requiring a more frequent pinning schedule

[RyanGreg]

I agree with this.

The ester has nothing to do with the bloat but rather the pinning frequency that comes along with it. THe longer esters are often pinned biweekly as you said, causing a large increase in testosterone followed by leveling off the a very large spike again a few days later, This fluctuation can bring about the bloat seen with the compound. With a more frequent pinning schedule and smaller doses per pin, the hormone levels remain more stable leading to less unwanted sides. THis is often why shorter esters are used due to their requiring a more frequent pinning schedule

So technically would ED pinning be better for bloat and water retention compared to EOD pinning?

I honestly do not mind pinning ED for 16 weeks if it will be even 1/10th better.

[RyanGreg]

16 weeks of prop.. You don't like enanthate or cyp?

Pre comp so i want minimal water retention and bloat. I don't mind needles.

[Sworder]

All bloat should be gone either way come comp day, hit the letro and cycle the carbs just right for a full look!

What is your pre-comp diet/prep?

[RyanGreg]

Will Aromasin be enough to prevent water retention and bloat or will i need to go letro?

Diet is 50/25/25 of P/C/F % and i will be in a deficit of -500

[Sworder]

Will Aromasin be enough to prevent water retention and bloat or will i need to go letro?

Diet is 50/25/25 of P/C/F % and i will be in a deficit of -500

Masin is fine, i just personally prefer letrozole. Doubling the dose should be fine as Metalject suggests, don't be afraid to increase though to get that super dry look. I would look into carb cycling though or fat cycling either works. This prevents you from looking flat as a lot of the guys look flat and watery. Don't make that mistake!

This is a common myth that's been spread around for a long time. Esters do not affect water retention. The testosterone hormone does not become active in the body until the hormone cleaves off the ester, so regardless of the ester that existed in the beginning, the same hormone is in the body once there's no ester.

Personally, I know a lot of guys who stick with Enanthate or Cypionate all the way through to their contest. A lot of them, however, will inject it on an every other day basis in smaller doses rather than 1-2 large doses per wk. This seems to help out with maintaining peaked levels due to the short burst of testosterone compounds like Enanthate bring in the first 48hrs before the stable off to a slower release over the next few weeks. It also seems to help control side effects a little more...why, I'm not entirely sure, only have theories.

Right on

[Metalject]

Will Aromasin be enough to prevent water retention and bloat or will i need to go letro?

Diet is 50/25/25 of P/C/F % and i will be in a deficit of -500

I prefer letro at the tail end of a contest cycle, say the last 2-3wks. Combined with the Masteron, which is anti-estrogenic to a degree, this should really help.

[RyanGreg]

I prefer letro at the tail end of a contest cycle, say the last 2-3wks. Combined with the Masteron, which is anti-estrogenic to a degree, this should really help.

Could i do Aromasin for 10 weeks, letro for the last 6 weeks? Few photo shoots in the last weeks.

Or just straight letro for 16 weeks?

[Noles12]

What is your previous cycle history?

I personally feel you wont see much at all from Mast dosed that low

[Lunk1]

What is your previous cycle history?

I personally feel you wont see much at all from Mast dosed that low

I agree with this 500-700mg EW is the sweet spot for mast imo

[RyanGreg]

I agree with this 500-700mg EW is the sweet spot for mast imo

Ok I will do mast 150mg EOD.. Just over 500mg

[Lunk1]

^^^^^ Amen...thats alot of poking. I would just use Test E and front load with prop!

[RyanGreg]

Thanks a lot for all your fast replies.

[Metalject]

With a 16wk contest prep plan using the compounds you've listed, you might consider limiting the Masteron to the last 6-8wks. This steroid won't do a lot for you until you're at a very low level of body fat. If you do this, you shouldn't have to worry about losing too much muscle as long as you're diet is right and you continue with the testosterone at the front half. Will it be the end of the world if you use it the whole ten wks as listed? No.

Also be prepared to lower the test dose down at the end, say the last 2-4wks. You may not have to and should base this on how you're looking but you need to be willing to do so if needed.

I'd also consider doubling the AI dose the last 2wks before your show. This will help out quite a bit.

[RyanGreg]

With a 16wk contest prep plan using the compounds you've listed, you might consider limiting the Masteron to the last 6-8wks. This steroid won't do a lot for you until you're at a very low level of body fat. If you do this, you shouldn't have to worry about losing too much muscle as long as you're diet is right and you continue with the testosterone at the front half. Will it be the end of the world if you use it the whole ten wks as listed? No.

Also be prepared to lower the test dose down at the end, say the last 2-4wks. You may not have to and should base this on how you're looking but you need to be willing to do so if needed.

I'd also consider doubling the AI dose the last 2wks before your show. This will help out quite a bit.

Yeah i will drop the test dose down depending on how i am looking and will double up on the AI.

Would you recommend another AI instead of Aromasin?

Arimidex? Letro?

[Metalject]

Yeah i will drop the test dose down depending on how i am looking and will double up on the AI.

Would you recommend another AI instead of Aromasin?

Arimidex? Letro?

I prefer Arimidex over Aromasin, but I never used a lot of Aromasin to make a fair comparison. Used it off-season a few times when needed but always used Arimidex or Letro for dieting.

[RyanGreg]

I prefer Arimidex over Aromasin, but I never used a lot of Aromasin to make a fair comparison. Used it off-season a few times when needed but always used Arimidex or Letro for dieting.

What is the strongest out of the 3?

I always thought it was Letro, then Aromasin then Arimidex being last.

[Sworder]

All 3 are capable of driving your e2 down to rock-bottom. Their equivalent doses are about 0.5mg letro EOD, 0.5mg arimidex EOD, Aromasin 25mg EOD. But they aren't the same drugs though so you can't compare them like that, just to give you an understanding..

What people prefer is aromasin/arimidex, letro is on everybody's sh1t list except mine

[warmouth]

Why is there the misconception of a long ester vs short and water retention? I have never ran into water retention on either. Do you guys think certain compounds affect certain people differently? Or is it just that it is the old scholl mentality?

[Metalject]

Why is there the misconception of a long ester vs short and water retention? I have never ran into water retention on either. Do you guys think certain compounds affect certain people differently? Or is it just that it is the old scholl mentality?

Most people tend to use less testosterone when dieting than bulking and because of a lower test dose, a stricter diet and a lot more cardio they hold less water. Many assume they held less because they used a smaller ester but it's the other factors that produced the result, not the ester.

[Sworder]

Why is there the misconception of a long ester vs short and water retention? I have never ran into water retention on either. Do you guys think certain compounds affect certain people differently? Or is it just that it is the old scholl mentality?

The ester isn't used, it's a "vehicle" only. Some say they get better gains on prop than enanthate but in reality they are using the same compound. Testosterone.. If you dose them correctly so that you are metabolizing the same amount/day there won't be a difference.

[Sworder]

You could try the clen and see how you like it so you get your own opinion. Once again it doesn't do that much for me besides energy and cramps too

[RyanGreg]

You could try the clen and see how you like it so you get your own opinion. Once again it doesn't do that much for me besides energy and cramps too

Never had cramp in my life so don't know what to expect lol.

[RyanGreg]

Sorry guys my last question if you don't mind.

What is best to take for my liver?

[dec11]

Sorry guys my last question if you don't mind.

What is best to take for my liver?

thats all a load of bollocks too. ive run oral combos of drol/dbol and my levels have always been fine, i get tested regularly for TRT. i used to take milk thistle and liv52 etc, waste of money and unproven.

you need to edit post 47 btw

[RyanGreg]

thats all a load of bollocks too. ive run oral combos of drol/dbol and my levels have always been fine, i get tested regularly for TRT. i used to take milk thistle and liv52 etc, waste of money and unproven.

you need to edit post 47 btw

Ok thanks.

And i have edited post #47, i removed the link a few minutes ago maybe you just hadn't refreshed your page.

[Noles12]

You can go clen 2on/2 off then after the 2 off start ECA 2 on/ 2off. Personally i would try both for a period then use only one. I see no need to continue switching back and forth

[RyanGreg]

Thanks a lot for all your posts guys!

Huge help, looking forward to starting the cycle.

[dec11]

OP, dont waste your money on trib, its completely useless and does zilch......

[RyanGreg]

OP, dont waste your money on trib, its completely useless and does zilch......

Any other supplement you would recommend for PCT to boost test then?

[dec11]

Any other supplement you would recommend for PCT to boost test then?

no such thing mate, 'test boosters' are a myth and a con from the supp companies to rid the ill informed of their cash. there's only one way to have over the odds test levels

[Sworder]

no such thing mate, 'test boosters' are a myth and a con from the supp companies to rid the ill informed of their cash. there's only one way to have over the odds test levels

The effect of five weeks of Tribulus terrestris supplementation on muscle strength and body composition during preseason training in elite rugby league players
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/17530942
Abstract

Tribulus terrestris is an herbal nutritional supplement that is promoted to produce large gains in strength and lean muscle mass in 5-28 days (15, 18). Although some manufacturers claim T. terrestris will not lead to a positive drug test, others have suggested that T. terrestris may increase the urinary testosterone/epitestosterone (T/E) ratio, which may place athletes at risk of a positive drug test. The purpose of the study was to determine the effect of T. terrestris on strength, fat free mass, and the urinary T/E ratio during 5 weeks of preseason training in elite rugby league players. Twenty-two Australian elite male rugby league players (mean +/- SD; age = 19.8 +/- 2.9 years; weight = 88.0 +/- 9.5 kg) were match-paired and randomly assigned in a double-blind manner to either a T. terrestris (n = 11) or placebo (n = 11) group. All subjects performed structured heavy resistance training as part of the club's preseason preparations. A T. terrestris extract (450 mg.d(-1)) or placebo capsules were consumed once daily for 5 weeks. Muscular strength, body composition, and the urinary T/E ratio were monitored prior to and after supplementation. After 5 weeks of training, strength and fat free mass increased significantly without any between-group differences. No between-group differences were noted in the urinary T/E ratio. It was concluded that T. terrestris did not produce the large gains in strength or lean muscle mass that many manufacturers claim can be experienced within 5-28 days. Furthermore, T. terrestris did not alter the urinary T/E ratio and would not place an athlete at risk of testing positive based on the World Anti-Doping Agency's urinary T/E ratio limit of 4:1.

Effects of anabolic precursors on serum testosterone concentrations and adaptations to resistance training in young men.
http://ukpmc.ac.uk/abstract/MED/10997957

Abstract

The effects of androgen precursors, combined with herbal extracts designed to enhance testosterone formation and reduce conversion of androgens to estrogens was studied in young men. Subjects performed 3 days of resistance training per week for 8 weeks. Each day during Weeks 1, 2, 4, 5, 7, and 8, subjects consumed either placebo (PL; n = 10) or a supplement (ANDRO-6; n = 10), which contained daily doses of 300 mg androstenedione, 150 mg DHEA, 750 mg Tribulus terrestris, 625 mg Chrysin, 300 mg Indole-3-carbinol, and 540 mg Saw palmetto. Serum androstenedione concentrations were higher in ANDRO-6 after 2, 5, and 8 weeks (p <.05), while serum concentrations of free and total testosterone were unchanged in both groups. Serum estradiol was elevated at Weeks 2, 5, and 8 in ANDRO-6 (p <.05), and serum estrone was elevated at Weeks 5 and 8 (p <.05). Muscle strength increased (p <.05) similarly from Weeks 0 to 4, and again from Weeks 4 to 8 in both treatment groups. The acute effect of one third of the daily dose of ANDRO-6 and PL was studied in 10 men (23 +/- 4 years). Serum androstenedione concentrations were elevated (p <.05) in ANDRO-6 from 150 to 360 min after ingestion, while serum free or total testosterone concentrations were unchanged. These data provide evidence that the addition of these herbal extracts to androstenedione does not result in increased serum testosterone concentrations, reduce the estrogenic effect of androstenedione, and does not augment the adaptations to resistance training.

[Sworder]

If you do decide to use the clen, I would get the diphenhydramine sleeping pills like unisom or benadryl. This will help your beta receptors and also sleep of course. Read up more on the clen use though and hear peoples opinions on it. So far none of us can really account for a lot of benefits with clen.

Also, you don't have to do ED injections of Test E for stable levels. EOD is more than enough E3D should yield the same levels as well. Drop the hCG along when you lower test dose or 2 weeks before the contest and continue it after or I don't know how you have planned your cycle and competition.

[RyanGreg]

If you do decide to use the clen, I would get the diphenhydramine sleeping pills like unisom or benadryl. This will help your beta receptors and also sleep of course. Read up more on the clen use though and hear peoples opinions on it. So far none of us can really account for a lot of benefits with clen.

Also, you don't have to do ED injections of Test E for stable levels. EOD is more than enough E3D should yield the same levels as well. Drop the hCG along when you lower test dose or 2 weeks before the contest though and continue it after or I don't know how you have planned your cycle and competition.

Yeah i heard you can get real bad headaches on clen?

Whats your opinion on Liquid Albuterol? I heard its very similar to clen..

[Sworder]

Yes, against the rules. Edit the post and remove the link.

Never tried it, if it's like clen I will probably never touch it