Need help designing Trenevar/trendione Cycle and PCT (new but eager to learn)

[the_eraser]

Hey everybody! I'm 22 years old, 215 pounds. I've mostly been doing bodyweight stuff this summer. I've naturally gotten to 225 lbs before with a lifting program, so I really want to see how far I can push the envelope. I've worked out my entire life. Though I'm not a noob, I'm relatively new to this field (I have only cycled once). I just really want to get things going again. I've had two debilitating injuries that have really hindered me these last two years.

First and foremost, I recognize last time I cycled I was really stupid and probably somewhat lucky. I thought my friend gave me a test-booster, but in actuality, for 4 weeks I was taking 50 mg of oral Trenevar as a stand alone. When I figured out what it was from looking at the 17-dione ingredient on the back, I stopped cold. Didn't get any adverse side effects either. I want to do things correctly this time. I got great gains last time, I feel like the sky is the limit this time around.

1. If all you had at your disposal was trenevar acetate/trendione, how many weeks, as a estimate, would you cycle it as a stand-alone? 4-6? 8?? If you do not recommend me cycling this way, would it be better if I were to take Aromasin/Arimidex, or HCG, or both, during cycle, then continuing to take Aromasin/Arimidex for my PCT? I ask this because I have no idea where I could find Dianabol to stack with the tren.

2.How would you pyramid up the dosage of tren? Before I only took 50 mg a day, sometimes EOD, if I pyramid up with some intelligence, I bet I could see even more results. (From all my research, 100 mg is definitely enough for this powerful compound, but I've seen some guys dwarf that)!

3. I'd like to take Activate and Dymatize Z-force toward the end of my cycle and during PCT with the Aromasin/Arimidex. I'd also like to avoid Clomid and Nolvadex completely.

4. Also included in my on cycle supplements will be Hawthorne Berry, milk thistle, fish oil, saw palmetto, and fenugreek, would you add anything else?

And last but not least:

5. Based on my situation, does it still not matter whether I choose Ultra Hot, Giant ATD, or Rebound XT for my ATI?

[altered genetics]

No one on this site is going to advise this cycle to you. And oral tren is extremely toxic from what I hear I'd stay away from it

[the_eraser]

Any suggestions bro?

[Chicagotarsier]

No test no cycle

Tren is not for the average weight lifter. If they say it is and no issues...then they do no cardio.

Tren does not pyramid up...it is not a medication like T3 or Clen. You will have a definite line and when you cross it you know where your limit is. 25 a day has the muscle protecting chcteristics of 200 a day test. Very few people outside a lifetime lifter like marcus or kelkel would ever EVER need to go over this. 50 a day and 90% of people experince somewhat intense sides. Over 50 you get into the guys who walk 5 feet and are ready to pass out due to no oxygen. There are people that do that but why? Tren's power is muscle wastage protection not mass building. After going down my messenger list and talking to people who have cyucled more than 5 times int he past 6 years. Everyone ran Deca or NPP with Tren. Not 50%, 70% or 90%, 100%. People that truly know the substance know to get the most out of it you need a mass builder along with it.

No opinion on not using Nolva or Clomid. You are going against the norm. That norm is a very solid norm.

[O-town Beef]

That oral tren sounds more like a PH. You should not stack with oral AAS, very hard on the body. The PH's I have used are brutally harsh on the body. Test is a must, all that OTC stuff is mostly a waste IMO, as I have tried it all. Read the educational articles here they contain all you need.

[the_eraser]

I really appreciate that information brother, truly. I've heard a little about deca, never heard of NPP. I thought Tren is usually stacked Dianabol? If I were to stack with any of these three, I would still need to add test? Or no? I lucked out because my friend lives in a rural town where the supplement store owner is somewhat of a meathead, so he carries the tren behind the counter. The other stuff would be a little hard to get. I'm not sure whether it's this site or the other where there's a list of legit sponsors, I'm on my phone ATM.

So just to recap, if I were to take 25 mg of tren a day, how many weeks would I stack it with the test for? Once again thanks again, I'm writing down everything right now.

[Juelzz]

I really appreciate that information brother, truly. I've heard a little about deca, never heard of NPP. I thought Tren is usually stacked Dianabol? If I were to stack with any of these three, I would still need to add test? Or no? I lucked out because my friend lives in a rural town where the supplement store owner is somewhat of a meathead, so he carries the tren behind the counter. The other stuff would be a little hard to get. I'm not sure whether it's this site or the other where there's a list of legit sponsors, I'm on my phone ATM. So just to recap, if I were to take 25 mg of tren a day, how many weeks would I stack it with the test for? Once again thanks again, I'm writing down everything right now.

First off bro your too young. Second an oral tren cycle stacked with deca or npp with no test and you dont want to bother with nolva or clomid. Is this a joke?

[the_eraser]

see post below

[the_eraser]

I'm 22 bro. And I've done a lot of research on nolvadex and clomid. They are both extremely harsh on the body. I mean I'd buy nolvadex just incase any gyno were to pop up but I'd only take it for the first 3 or so days of the PCT. This isn't a joke at all. People think Nolv and Clomid are the greatest because they're from the old guard, but that doesn't necesscarily mean they're the best. Although ATIs are relatively new, in my humble opinion they're better. Yea they don't attach to the receptors so they take a little longer to kick in (they work with the enzymes), but they're much better for you from what I've read. There have been extensive debates on this very subject

[The Deadlifting Dog]

Where were these debates of which you speak?

[the_eraser]

Where were these debates of which you speak?

Glad you asked! And here is original post:First of all, let me say that this is not a thread all about PCT, as I think Krzna has created a very good thread to that end. However, as I've done more and more research and heard from, or read articles by, the true "legends" in the game, it seems as though there is a wealth of contradictory information that needs to be sorted out for our board. Let's start with the typical types of PCT drgs:

Suicide Inhibitors:

6-oxo - at based
Rebound XT - atd based
Kilosports Attack - atd based
Novedex XT - atd based
**** Ultra Hot - atd based
Arimidex (Anastrozole) - prescription

Serms:

Nolvadex (tamoxifen citrate) - prescription
Clomid (clomiphene citrate) - prescription

LH mimitek:

HCG (Human Chorionic Gonadotropin)

Natural Test Boosters:

Activate
Diesel Test
Blue Rhino

Other additions:

Fenugreek
Long Jack
Avena Sativa
DHEA
7-oxo-dhea (oral or transdermal)
Tribulus


Now as most of you know by now your pct will vary based on a few factors. The first is the length of your cycle. The longer your cycle is, the more suppression that occurs and the longer the body needs to recover. Secondly, the types of aas/ph/ps that you use. Obviously your ergomax cycle won't require the same pct as a cycle of test/tren/winny, which leads to my third point, which is the amount of drgs you are using, both in a mg sense and a one, two, or three ph/aas sense. I will discuss the different pct drgs taking into account all 3 variables above.

What are we trying to do during PCT? Our pct should have 3 goals.

1.) To increase production of Gnrh, and thereby LH FSH, in order to increase test production.

2.) To control the effects of circulating estrogen in the body during a time of zero-low test production.

3.) To return testicular mass in an effort to maximize the increase in LH and Fsh in order to maximize test production.

These three goals mean addressing the two negative feedback loops. In order to do this, we must discuss the products that can help, and how to use them.

6-oxo - 6 oxo is a suicide inhibitor that binds to the enzymes in your body making them inactive. When this occurs the body's natural response is to release Gnrh, which stimulates LH production, and thus an increase in test.

Why is it no longer used as frequently as other products: 6-oxo was the first over the counter suicide inhibitor that actually worked. Unfortunately, it has since been surpassed by stronger ai's that are atd based. In fact, technically we could call 6-oxo "AT" which simply tells you that it does not have everything that "ATD" has to offer us. The other drawback was that 600mg daily were needed for AT based ai's, where as 100mg of ATD will yield better results.

ATD products - ATD is a more advanced ai that also binds to the enzyme rendering it inactive. The difference being two fold. Firstly, atd products are 2.8 times more powerful than at based products. Secondly, atd also addressess the androgen negative feedback loop as well as the estrogen negative feedback loop.

Why isn't it used as much as nolva and clomid: ATD is a rather new product. Science certainly states that it is the best pct product, but nolva and clomid are tried and true, and have been staples of pct protocols for years. Of course there is also the resistance to change, which is why, regardless of sciene, many people will use nolva no matter what.

Nolva and Clomid - Serms are anti-estrogens that are selective in the tissue where the bind. Nolva binds to estrogen receptors in the breast and bone, and clomid in the suprapituitary. Both of these drgs block estrogen receptors which renders circulating estrogen useless. The do not eliminate circulating estrogen, as they do not bind to the enzymes.

Why are they so popular: Serms have been around for many years. They are known, especially clomid, for creating a huge increase in LH, while blocking estrogen. They have often been used in combination to maximize the anti-estrogen effects in as much tissue as possible, while also maximizing the production of LH.

HCG - HCG is an LH mimitek. When injected it is the equivalent of sending huge amounts of lh directly to the testes. When this occurs test production is directly stimulated in the testes. HCG can be used on cycle to maintain testicular mass by sending regular levels of lh to the testes on a bu weekly schedule. It is often continued into pct in order to maintain high lh levels and testicular mass.

Why don't we hear much about it: HCG is by injection only, and it's illegal. While being quite useful, it is not an option for everyone.

So, where do we stand? Well, despite the bb.com consensus, nolva and clomid are junk. We should all be using a strong atd dose for the best results, but why? Let me explain...

Can't submit url but I can PM it to you. Lots of informative posts in the thread and defense of his strong statements

[The Deadlifting Dog]

HCG - HCG is an LH mimitek. When injected it is the equivalent of sending huge amounts of lh directly to the testes. When this occurs test production is directly stimulated in the testes. HCG can be used on cycle to maintain testicular mass by sending regular levels of lh to the testes on a bu weekly schedule. It is often continued into pct in order to maintain high lh levels and testicular mass.

HCG is not used in PCT since it suppressed LH. It doesn't maintain high LH levels. It maintains low LH levels.
You still didn't say where these debates occured.

[the_eraser]

HCG is not used in PCT since it suppressed LH. It doesn't maintain high LH levels. It maintains low LH levels.
You still didn't say where these debates occured.

I wouldn't use hcg during a pct. I would use it on cycle. Did you see my last post? I said I can't post the URL. It's an older thread from bb.com if that's what you wanted to know?

[The Deadlifting Dog]

Well I wouldn't recommend getting advice from a site that sells supplements.

[michael30]

Not quite sure where to even start with this thead!