For A Better America Vote Kerry!

**AandF6969** · 11-02-2004, 02:13 PM

So many intelligent thoughts backed up by legitamate arguments on this thread...

**IronPumper80** · 11-02-2004, 02:32 PM

Originally Posted by AandF6969

So many intelligent thoughts backed up by legitamate arguments on this thread...

Sarcasim??

**nickrizz** · 11-02-2004, 02:34 PM

http://forums.steroid.com/showthread.php?t=131890
to see why you shouldnt listen to your union, i would put it in here but dont want to hijack the thread

**carbs-rule** · 11-02-2004, 02:53 PM

Bush is actually consider to have an IQ in around the upper 99.5% of the country. Kerry and Bush are essentially leading the country in the same direction. Both have the same strategy (read "none") for Iraq, both seem to want the federal government to increase, both are against gay marriage, both are for the patriot act, etc. I agree with SwoleCat, and think Kerry will win the election. I just hope the republicans can steal it again. And remember...Bush did use, to his credit, the term "haters" in one of the debates. That secured a vote for him from me.

**decadbal** · 11-02-2004, 06:41 PM

skimpy returns

**Fat Guy** · 11-02-2004, 06:46 PM

Viva la Kerry there will be a better tomorrow when he wins! For all you haters it is O.K. I understand you just do not know or see the big picture… I can not get mad at you for that. I just hope you guys see the light someday and we all work for a better society together…

**SwoleCat** · 11-02-2004, 07:01 PM

Originally Posted by unhcj

LOL so what! its only 3pm and thats on the east coast!

Yeah partna, but now it's 6 p.m. and ain't sh*t changed.

Kerry is racking up those electoral votes.

~SC~

**LeanMeOut** · 11-02-2004, 07:02 PM

Forget it lol.....I just went back to Msn's site. I am not even going to pay attention to the exit polls until the majority of the states are listed. Right now it is impossible to tell anything.

**talon** · 11-02-2004, 07:06 PM

Originally Posted by SwoleCat

Kerry likes rap and dislikes heavy metal.

He gets my vote for that alone!

~SC~

LOL, he said that because he went in with Eminem to make that video dissing Bush. Its a conspiracy I tell you.

**josh8416** · 11-02-2004, 07:16 PM

unn bush is ahead right now, i think its like 39 to 3 electoral votes.. GO BUSHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHH

**SwoleCat** · 11-02-2004, 10:25 PM

Originally Posted by josh8416

unn bush is ahead right now, i think its like 39 to 3 electoral votes.. GO BUSHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHH

LMFAO.......u poor guy........

~SC~

**josh8416** · 11-02-2004, 10:28 PM

bush is ahead!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! not looking to good for KERRY!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

**josh8416** · 11-02-2004, 10:29 PM

POOR GUY, LOL turn on the TV buddy, i believe Kerry is getting his ASS handed to him, and i know bush has florida so its over budddddddy!!!!

**Jeremy34** · 11-03-2004, 12:36 AM

to all the libs.....get ready for another 4 years bltches!!!

**OSTIE** · 11-03-2004, 01:01 AM

Originally Posted by Jeremy34

to all the libs.....get ready for another 4 years bltches!!!

I hope you are the first to get drafted, along with anyone else who voted bush...

The main reason I didnt vote bush was for reasons that directly involved me over these next couple years as a 21yr old.
1) The draft scare, true or not, I do not want to be drafted
2) Everyone says bush is pro war, blah blah, but I keep seeing articles of our soldiers being be-headed and killed, yet all we do is capture our enemies and make them sit in jail. IMO, it is a slap in the face. This isnt capture the flag, its war. So, if you are going to go to war, kill em all before they kill us.
3) Bush does jacksh!t to help the lower/middle class college students. I am swamped in debt right now. I do not get any grants and he doesnt seem to be doing anythign to lower costs.

BTW, dont mean to sound harsh on the draft thing. I hope it doesnt happen and no one has to be put in that situation, I dont want any of us to die. I just feel if it does happen(the draft), all those who voted bush should be put on the front line first.

Not that the draft will happen, but if it does happen under bush, I can see all the pro-bush pussies now crying over having to go overseas unwillingly.

**cjp85** · 11-03-2004, 03:08 AM

http://network.ap.org/dynamic/files/...CTION=POLITICS

**BigGreen** · 11-03-2004, 03:43 AM

Originally Posted by OSTIE

3) Bush does jacksh!t to help the lower/middle class college students. I am swamped in debt right now. I do not get any grants and he doesnt seem to be doing anythign to lower costs.

First, let me say that portions of your post were a welcome change from some of the playground antics I've seen around here (and virtually every other board of all varieties) leading up to this election. I particularly respect the fact that you're willing to concede that the draft may or may not happen but even the possibility, however remote, was an issue for you and you acted accordingly.

That being said, I really have to take issue with your third 'talking point'. Not so much with your bringing it up as it being such a heated topic at all.

I am at a complete and utter loss as to why so many people believe that the cost of education, rate of student loans and financial aid should be such a governmental concern. It is already so heavily subsidized as to tear at the foundations of my free market heart...student loan rates are so incredibly low, so easily attainable without a credit history and even attainable with a poor credit history SPECIFICALLY because of the government's insuring of all loans. This is absolutely HUGE.

Further, higher education is an investment in one's self. You have to weigh the comparative advantages and disadvantages of undertaking such an endeavor (both financially and otherwise). Like all investments in the self that lead to higher future earnings, you incur a cost in doing so. Higher education as a self-investment is no different than purchasing a rental property as an investment in your future earnings...yet the idea that the government should be initiating drastic overhauls so that people have greater access to 'first rental properties' or anything of that vein is absurd - at least to the degree that many propose further involvement in spiraling education costs.

Now, I'm slight biased as a libertarian, but if the cost of higher education is spiraling out of control, the reason is one of economic rationality: there is a (perceived...which for all intents and purposes may as well be real when speaking of perceptions and economics) benefit to higher education as a self-investment such that those clamoring to 'purchase' this limited (scarce) good exceed the number of available 'spots'. Theoretically speaking, the second that this investment is no longer worth the delayed income and financial outlays, the price will begin to drop. It is, however, presently worth it and will continue to be so for some time.

Just like a real estate developer or virtually any entrepreneur incurs serious financial risk at 'start-up', those of us who have determined (and I'd argue that most do so as a knee-jerk reaction and not because they've actually determined it's a benefit) that higher education is a valid self-investment, must incur those same financial risks in the form of student loans and opportunity costs. Why many college students somehow believe they should be blessed with even further displacement of these risks onto the federal government shocks the **** out of me.

Virtually anyone who has determined that higher education represents a justifiable self-investment can do so with far less debt than many of these students incur. Simply because someone perceives (and I'm not saying you are guilty of this) that spending four years at a private school is a wiser investment than two years at a community college and two years at their local state university is not sufficient does not entitle them to additional relief on the part of the government. Harvard Law costs a hell of a lot more than UConn Law because Harvard is perceived by many as the better financial investment (risk vs. reward). A degree from either will allow you to practice law, and it's your free will that allows you to choose whether you'd like to incur further risk (in terms of cost) for the potential of greater reward (in the form of the perceived benefits of the HLS degree).

Now, one marginally valid argument is that nationalized higher education mirroring our k-12 system would benefit us nationally, and thus the government should have great incentive to institute such an ideal. A couple of responses:
1. If it is the will of the people to incur this cost, as opposed to allowing the direct beneficiaries (ie, students) to incur the cost, then the democratic process will allow for it. But, just as you (rightfully so) are concerned with debt now, once your'e out and earning a sizable paycheck, you're probably not going to be too thrilled by the idea of subsidizing even more so the education of people who may or may not put it to use in such a way that it benefits you.
2. It would also be ideal if everyone were given a home with working heat and running water, but ideals succumb to reality every time. As it is set up now, the system is fairly efficient imo. I will be well over one hundred grand in debt by the time I am done with all of my schooling, and this is a risk I elected to take of my own accord. Had I felt I would have been unable to take this risk, you can bet your ass I would have been enrolled at Bristol Community College and then UMass as opposed to an almost 50K per year school.

Sorry, but the libertarian in me just gets rubbed the entire wrong way by the consistent 'woe is me' attitude of many students and their sense of entitlement. Again, i have to stress that I'm not lumping you into that category in the least. Believe me, i know how much it sucks to be in debt for education, but it's a choice you make, not one that is thrust upon you.

**Duck of Death** · 11-03-2004, 07:26 AM

Oh Yeah, beeches......... it's BUSH!! Herman Munster has to go back to the mansion and play checkers with Grandpa......
Now we will see if JFK has the class to gracefully concede or drag things out because he thinks he will get almost ALL of Ohio's provisional votes (fat chance)!!

**OSTIE** · 11-03-2004, 07:28 AM

Good post Green... I definately agree with just about your whole post...

My only response is jealously, lol. I hate the people JUST below my families income level receiving grants from the government, yet the parents are still spoiling the kids by paying the rest since they have that break in full tuition. And ofcourse the parents in the income bracket above pay for all of school and other expenses as well.

And what pisses me off even more is that since I do flip the bill for school, I try to be claimed as independent in terms for applying for grants, but I was told it doesnt work that way. A person has to be 25yrs old or have some extreme case of why they are independent at that age. This thought is totally beyond me, espcially since I am indepedent according to my taxes.

I guess I could blame my parents since the government feels they make enough to pay for my college, but since neither went to college they have a different outlook on college education. We argue about this all the time, but I agree that I am an adult so they have no obligation.

I guess its mostly that I do see all this free money for education being handed out all over and I just fit in that one area where I can not get my hands on any.