10-17-2004, 03:12 PM #1
check out my silly idea (all constructive flames welcome)
ok so here is what I am planning to try... I am planning on (mostly for experimental purposes) taking the whole short cycle concept to a new level....I am going to take either dbol or winny or perhaps both 40-60mg every fourth day for 6 months. Now let me say why...I am sick of the roller coaster of cycling the great gains and then loses and the sexaul side effects post cycle...I dont really need to be any bigger than I am now I just want to maintain my current physique and I know if I dont take any gear I will slowly lose the 15 or 20 lbs of muscle that is past my natural potential. I figure 1 on 3 off should be sufficent to maintain natural test production and keep me where I want to be plus not be too hard on my liver...SO what is everyones opinion? Any better ideas for acheiving the same goal??
10-17-2004, 03:21 PM #2
im not sure why you are picking dbol or winny for this... i dont like the idea but hey it's your body...i would do something with prop but i dont know what you would really get out of E4D injects... PLUS with proper pct diet and training there should be no reason you will lose everything you gained off your cycle...
10-17-2004, 03:26 PM #3
Let em get this straight, youre tired of running cycles because of the sides but you want to take gear because you want to maintain what you have? This really dosent make sense. with gear you have to keep the levels even in you bloodstream, you wont get good results compared to a proper cycle and you will probably be very emotional from the up and down hormone levels. If you just want to maintain your current size, change your diet around.
10-17-2004, 03:35 PM #4Originally Posted by justaname
10-17-2004, 03:36 PM #5
but of course i mean this in a constructive way
10-17-2004, 03:42 PM #6
thats a horrible idea man, your gonna mess yourself up doing that. your not gonna have testosterone production for those 6 months+the time coming off. your blood levels will also be fukked up.
how much do you weigh bro? this isnt a flame but, what you have in that avatar could be attained naturally with hard work.
10-17-2004, 08:42 PM #7Originally Posted by itsallmental
so why would I have no test production for those 6 months?
I have read numerous places that positve nitrogen balance is achieved within hours of oral administration of dbol and or winny so I assume that means you are getting positive anabolic action almost immediatly so if you figure over the course of 6 months you will have around 50 such days there should be a cummulative effect assuming the natural test levels dont drop too low. maybe every five days would be better I dont know. Is my logic tragically flawed somehow??
as for the how much do I wiegh... wieght itself means very little I am 184 right now but you have to understand I have the bone structure of a canary and the musculature to match. I top out at around 170 training naturally unless I get fat. But with decent definition its 170. I trained for 10 years and gained 40 lbs of muscle but couldnt go any further even with good nutrition solid training and plenty of rest. So I did a couple cycles and gained a solid 20 more. I then continued to train hard and well and eat right and slowly but surely over the course of a couple years I lost all but about 4 pounds of what I had gained.
10-17-2004, 08:46 PM #8
You're 15-20lbs over your genetic limit! Bro, you only weigh 185 at 6'. You should be able to gain 15 more lbs naturally let alone just maintain what you've got.
10-17-2004, 08:50 PM #9
well if you wana be the guinea pig i would like to see how the results come out.
10-17-2004, 08:53 PM #10
........... What I say is what is up with your diet? Please tell me you take whey protein, if not theirs a good place to start and also how many calories and grams of protein are you getting ed? If I was stuck with having to go natural for the rest of my life with whey protein/creatine/multi-vit's I could still make decent gains... Of course nothing on a large scale but I would continualy keep on going up.
10-17-2004, 10:21 PM #11Originally Posted by unclemoney
10-17-2004, 11:27 PM #12
10-18-2004, 06:43 AM #13Originally Posted by joevette
my wrist measurment is less than 7 inches. If you knew me you would belive what I say..I have a cousin who is just like me and he doesnt lift he is 6'1" and weighs 145 and he is chubby... Im not kidding.
10-18-2004, 06:50 AM #14Originally Posted by unclemoney
10-18-2004, 06:58 AM #15
so lets just assume what I say is true my genetic limit sucks on ice and my training and diet are solid. If that is the case does any one see a tragic flaw in my logic for doing what I descibed earlier? does anyone have any other ideas? For achieving the same goal that goal being to make slow gains or at a minumum not have any loses while at the same time not shutting down natural test production.
10-18-2004, 07:02 AM #16Originally Posted by justaname
10-18-2004, 07:13 AM #17Originally Posted by fitnessguy
10-18-2004, 07:21 AM #18Originally Posted by justaname
you can't really say what the sides could be. anywhere from no sex drive, acne, blood pressure, etc...hell you could get no sides. keep in mind winny is 17 alpha alkylated(liver toxic)
like Jackman said, if you want to be the guinea pig then let us know how it works. good luck
10-18-2004, 07:25 AM #19
oh yeah, you said you eat between 2500-3000 cal per day.
IMO that isn't enough. bump it up to 3500+ and see what happens.
10-18-2004, 08:34 AM #20Originally Posted by fitnessguy
10-18-2004, 08:36 AM #21Originally Posted by fitnessguy
10-18-2004, 08:56 AM #22Junior Member
- Join Date
- Apr 2004
If your adding calories and bulking up you are going to gain some fat, don't concern yourself over a few fat pounds that you can lose when you cut back down. Add some calories, gain some mass, and lose the fat come spring. I think your better off going with a natural bulk than the plan you have proposed.
10-18-2004, 09:50 AM #23Originally Posted by justaname
10-18-2004, 10:37 AM #24
You should not have trouble maintaining. What is your pct like. Make sure you have protein every 2 hours, thatll keep posititve nitro balance
10-18-2004, 11:17 AM #25Originally Posted by justaname
Calorie intake > Calorie needs = Gain weight
Calorie intake = Calorie needs = Maintain weight
Calorie intake < Caloire needs = Lose weight
Of course the kind of weight that you gain/lose will be determined by the macronutrients that you take in.
Last edited by AandF6969; 10-18-2004 at 11:24 AM.
10-18-2004, 11:42 AM #26Originally Posted by AandF6969
10-18-2004, 11:50 AM #27Originally Posted by Jackman
Can someone tell me why no one can believe I am built small and that for me 185 is big?
10-18-2004, 11:54 AM #28Originally Posted by AandF6969
10-18-2004, 12:06 PM #29Originally Posted by justaname
IMO, the way you are talking about taking winny and d-bol sounds like this:
You get sick, go to the doc, he gives you medicine and says take two a day for two weeks. you say fvck that, i'll take 2 every 4 days for 6 weeks.
There is a reason he told you to take them like he did. this may be a stupid example, but i'm just trying to clear it up.
OTHER FACTORS COULD BE:
maybe lack of sleep has something to do with it also. i know i don't get as much sleep as i should and that affects the rate at which i grow. maybe you train TOO much.
just trying to help man. good luck
10-18-2004, 01:33 PM #30
With your idea you would get all the side effects without the benifits. As much benifits that coupld come from oral only cycles. Every positive side effect of these drugs takes weeks to kick in. There is little chance you will see any positive result from the outlined cycle above.
I have trained many hard gainers. They can hold weight very well once they have gained real muscle weight. For you to keep what you got. Build a little more base naturally and youll be able to hold 185lbs without steroids .
10-18-2004, 02:40 PM #31
u sound like u have ur mind set and no matter what anyone says u arent changing ur mind. so good luck and keep us posted on ur positive and negative results.
10-18-2004, 03:20 PM #32Originally Posted by Anhydro78
Your logic makes no sense. You will get sides running the way you propose. Your hormones will be on a major rollercoaster ride. YOU WANT TO KEEP YOUR BLOOD LEVELS CONSISTENT (which in turn keeps your sides down to a minimum) Your wasting your gear running it every 3 or 4 days. If the drugs are out of your system in a couple of days, why in gods name are you even running them in the first place? In order for anabolic steroids to work, they have to be in your system consistently. No flame bro, but you need to go back to the drawing board.
10-18-2004, 07:27 PM #33
ok you guys win I give up...I expected the response to my idea to be negative but I hoped somebody would give some solid arguments about the fundamental idea. and not just to say it wont work you will get sides but no gains and you dont know what your doing. so I give up consider the thread dead. If I decide to do it anyways I will let you guys know how it goes. I have also considered doing two weekers with tren /prop and dbol if I do that i will let you guys know how that goes...peace and thanks
10-18-2004, 07:41 PM #34Originally Posted by justaname
10-18-2004, 08:08 PM #35Originally Posted by justaname
why in the hell would you do a two week cycle? I don't know which idea is dumbest; the one that started the whole thread or this one. your muscles don't magically grow in two weeks, it takes time(longer than two weeks) By the time they actually kick in, it will be time to start PCT.
I'm hoping i just read this wrong and you really meant something else. if that is the case then i apolagize. but if that is what you are talking about, then wooo!!! again, no flame but, man you might end up hurting yourself with all these "silly" ideas.
Good luck with your choices.
10-18-2004, 09:29 PM #36Originally Posted by fitnessguy
"Where AAS doses are sufficient for good gains, an interesting pattern is seen. For the first two weeks of the cycle, only the hypothalamus is inhibited, and it produces much less LHRH as a result of the high levels of sex hormones it senses. The pituitary is not inhibited at all: in fact, it is actually sensitized, and will respond to LHRH (if any is provided) even moreso than normally. After two weeks however, the pituitary also becomes inhibited, and even if LHRH is provided, the pituitary will produce little or no LH. This then is a deeper type of inhibition. After this point, there seems to be no definite further "switching point" where inhibition again becomes deeper and harder to reverse. As a general rule, I would say that there seems to be little difference between using AAS for 3 weeks vs. 8 weeks: recovery is about the same either way. Between 8 and 12 weeks, it becomes more and more likely that recovery will be difficult and slow, though even at 12 weeks it is common for recovery to not be too problematic, taking only a few weeks. Cycles past 12 weeks seem much more likely to cause substantial problems with recovery. In the hundreds of consultations I have done for people with recovery problems, very few (I can recall two) were for very short cycles such as 6 weeks, while most were for usages of 12 weeks straight or more."
the full article is at http://www.mesomorphosis.com/article...production.htm
Check it out if you want
10-18-2004, 09:44 PM #37Originally Posted by justaname
i just know from my experiences that i would not be very happy with a two week cycle. hell i wouldn't be happy with a 6 week cycle. i don't start noticing gains til about week 2 or 3 at the very earliest depending on what i'm taking. it's just from my personal experience.
but if recovery is about the same for 3 to 8 week cycles then why not extend it? I don't know, everyone reacts differently. It would be interesting to see what kind of gains you got. let me know what you decide to do. i'll check the site out tommorrow. i'm tired and delerious tonight. kinda out of it
10-18-2004, 11:14 PM #38
The reason those proposed cycles wont work is all the benifits of steroids that occur doesnt happen from day one. Injectables dont take a long time to kick in because of the esters. It takes a while for your body to first adapt to the drug. ANd then its a consistant use that provides the benifit. Here are some things that steroids enhance.
Enhanced protein synthesis
Enhanced growth factor activity (e.g. GH, IGF-1, etc.)
Enhanced activation of myogenic stem cells (i.e. satellite cells)
Enhanced myonuclear number (to maintain nuclear to cytoplasmic ratio)
New myofiber formation
maintaining a positive Nitrogen Balance.
These are not things that happen immediately.
10-18-2004, 11:16 PM #39
ANABOLIC -ANDROGENIC STEROIDS : Mechanism of Action and Effects on Performance
Thomas D. Fahey
Exercise Physiology Laboratory
California State University, Chico
Chico CA 95929 USA
Fahey, T.D. (1998). Anabolic-androgenic steroids: mechanism of action and effects on performance. In: Encyclopedia of Sports Medicine and Science, T.D.Fahey (Editor). Internet Society for Sport Science: http://sportsci.org. 7 March 1998.
How Anabolic Steroids Work
Anti-Catabolic Effects Of Anabolic Steroids
Anabolic Steroids and Performance
Anabolic steroids are drugs that resemble androgenic hormones (sometimes called male hormones) such as testosterone (Figure 1). Athletes consume them in the hope of gaining weight, strength, power, speed, endurance, and aggressiveness. They are widely used by athletes involved in such sports as track and field (mostly the throwing events), weight lifting, and American football. However, in spite of their tremendous popularity, their effectiveness is controversial. The research literature is divided on whether anabolic steroids enhance physical performance. Yet, almost all athletes who consume these substances acclaim their beneficial effects. Many athletes feel that they would not have been as successful without them.
There are several possible reasons for the large differences between experimental findings and empirical observations. An incredible mystique has arisen around these substances, providing fertile ground for the placebo effect. The use of anabolic steroids in the "real world" is considerably different from that in rigidly controlled, double-blind experiments (in a double blind study, neither the subject nor experimenter knows who is taking the drug). Most studies have not used the same drug dosage used by athletes. Institutional safeguards prohibit administration of high dosages of possibly dangerous substances to human subjects. Subjects in research experiments seldom resemble accomplished weight-trained athletes. Under these conditions, we must assess the results of sound research studies, as well as clinical and empirical field observations, in order to obtain a realistic profile of the use, effects on performance, and side effects of these substances.
How Anabolic Steroids Work
Male hormones, principally testosterone, are partially responsible for the tremendous developmental changes that occur during puberty and adolescence. Male hormones have androgenic and anabolic effects. Androgenic effects are changes in primary and secondary sexual characteristics. These include enlargement of the penis and testes, voice changes, hair growth on the face, axilla, and genital areas, and increased aggressiveness. The anabolic effects of androgens include accelerated growth of muscle, bone, and red blood cells, and enhanced neural conduction.
Anabolic steroids have been manufactured to enhance the anabolic properties (tissue building) of the androgens and minimize the androgenic (sex-linked) properties. However, no steroid has eliminated the androgenic effects because the so-called androgenic effects are really anabolic effects in sex-linked tissues. The effects of male hormones on accessory sex glands, genital hair growth, and oiliness of the skin are anabolic processes in those tissues. The steroids with the most potent anabolic effect are also those with the greatest androgenic effect.
Steroid hormones work by stimulation of receptor molecules in muscle cells, which activate specific genes to produce proteins (see Figure 1). They also affect the activation rate of enzyme systems involved in protein metabolism, thus enhancing protein synthesis and inhibiting protein degradation (called an anti-catabolic effect).
Figure 1: How a Steroid Hormone Works
Heavy resistance training seems to be necessary for anabolic steroids to exert any beneficial effect on physical performance. Most research studies that have demonstrated improved performance with anabolic steroids used experienced weight lifters who were capable of training with heavier weights and producing relatively greater muscle tension during exercise than novice subjects. The effectiveness of anabolic steroids is dependent upon unbound receptor sites in muscle. Intense strength training may increase the number of unbound receptor sites. This would increase the effectiveness of anabolic steroids.
Anti-Catabolic Effects Of Anabolic Steroids
Many athletes have said that anabolic steroids help them train harder and recover faster. They also said that they had difficulty making progress (or even holding onto the gains) when they were off the drugs. Anabolic steroids may have an anti-catabolic effect. This means that the drugs may prevent muscle catabolism that often accompanies intense exercise training. Presently, this hypothesis has not been fully proven.
Anabolic steroids may block the effects of hormones such as cortisol involved in tissue breakdown during and after exercise. Anabolic steroids may prevent tissue from breaking down following of an intense work-out. This would speed recovery. Cortisol and related hormones, secreted by the adrenal cortex, also has receptor sites within skeletal muscle cells. Cortisol causes protein breakdown and is secreted during exercise to enhance the use of proteins for fuel and to suppress inflammation that accompanies tissue injury.
Anabolic steroids may block the binding of cortisol to its receptor sites, which would prevent muscle breakdown and enhances recovery. While this is beneficial while the athlete is taking the drug, the effect backfires when he stops taking it. Hormonal adaptations occur in response to the abnormal amount of male hormone present in the athlete's body. Cortisol receptor sites and cortisol secretion from the adrenal cortex increase.
Anabolic steroid use decreases testosterone secretion. People who stop taking steroids are also hampered with less male hormone than usual during the "off" periods. The catabolic effects of cortisol are enhanced when the athlete stops taking the drugs and strength and muscle size are lost at a rapid rate.
The rebound effect of cortisol and its receptors presents people who use anabolic steroids with several serious problems: (1) psychological addiction is more probable because they become dependent on the drugs. This is because they tend to lose strength and size rapidly when off steroids. To stave off deconditioning, athletes may want to take the drugs for long periods of time to prevent falling behind. (2) Long-term administration increases the chance of serious side-effects. (3) Cortisol suppresses the immune system. This makes steroid users more prone to diseases, such as cold and flu, during the period immediately following steroid administration.
Some researchers have speculated that the real effect of anabolic steroids is the creation of a "psychosomatic state" characterized by sensations of well being, euphoria, increased aggressiveness and tolerance to stress, allowing the athlete to train harder. Such a psychosomatic state would be more beneficial to experienced weight lifters who have developed the motor skills to exert maximal force during strength training. Diets high in protein and calories may also be important in maximizing the effectiveness of anabolic steroids.
Anabolic Steroids and Performance
The effects of anabolic steroids on physical performance are unclear. Well controlled, double blind studies have rendered conflicting results. In studies showing beneficial effects, body weight increased by an average of about four pounds, lean body weight by about six pounds (fat loss accounts for the discrepancy between gains in lean mass and body weight), bench press increased by about 15 pounds, and squats by about 30 pounds (these values represent the average gains for all studies showing a beneficial effect). Almost all studies have failed to demonstrate a beneficial effect on maximal oxygen consumption or endurance capacity. Anabolic steroid studies have typically lasted six to eight weeks and have usually used relatively untrained subjects.
Most changes in strength during the early part of training are neural: increased strength is mainly due to an improved ability to recruit motor units. Anabolic steroids affect processes associated with protein synthesis in muscle. Studies lasting six weeks (typical study length) would largely reflect neural changes and could easily miss the cellular effects of the drugs.
The gains made by athletes in uncontrolled observations have been much more impressive. Weight gains of thirty or forty pounds, coupled with thirty percent increases in strength, are not unusual. Such case studies lack credibility because of the absence of scientific controls. However, it would be foolish to completely disregard such observations because the "subjects" have been highly trained and motivated athletes.Please see the articles on pharmacology of sport and sports medicine in the countries of the former Soviet Union for more information on anabolic steroids.
American Medical Association, Council on Scientific Affairs. Medical and non-medical uses of anabolic-androgenic steroids. J. Amer. Med. Assoc. 264: 2923-2927, 1990.
Bahrke, M.S., C.E. Yesalosk, and J.E. Wright. Psychological and behavioural effects of endogenous testosterone levels and anabolic-androgenic steroids among males: a review. Sports Med. 10: 303-337, 1990.
Buckley, W.E., C.E. Yasalis, K.E. Friedl, W.A. Anderson, A.L. Streit, and J.E. Wright. Estimated prevalance of anabolic steroid use among male high school seniors. J. Amer. Med. Assoc. 260: 3441-3445, 1988.
Rogozkin, V. Metabolism of Anabolic Androgenic Steroids. Leningrad: Nauka, 1988.
United States Olympic Committee. USOC Drug Education Handbook. Colorado Springs: USOC, 1989.
10-19-2004, 07:11 AM #40Originally Posted by Anhydro78
Now then....I am aware of all of these things and I have read the article you posted and many others like it. I understand what you are saying about the effects not happening immediatly. It certainly makes sense but I have not seen anything documented that deals with the subject at least not directly. THings I have read about anabolic androgenic ratios of different drugs talks about how they came to the documented ratios of different drugs and that method being they would give a single dosage of a given drug then measure the effect on skelatal muscle size compared to the effect on androgen sensative tissues like the prostate. There was an effect after a single administration of all drugs but the longer acting drugs had a better ratio. The drugs with te shortest half lives if given in small divided dosages give the same effect as the longer lasting esters. So in a way this supports both sides of our argument. I think it may be entirly possible that the effects you listed happen very quikly but the effects are cummulative and untill you reach a certain point in the accumulation you dont notice gains. I know from my own experience with fast acting drugs like tren dbol and winstrol that I notice a difference after only a couple of days. It is not a measurable gain however or not a gain that is outside the normal margin of fluctuation for wieght and size measurments at least. But a definate difference in muscle "feel" and especially with tren a difference in the apparent hardness of musculature.
So if the the gains are cumulative in such a way then spacing those building blocks out over a longer period of time should still add up to something.
I look forward to your response.
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