11-30-2004, 02:54 PM #1
One Last Question about my cycle...
Ok everyone, I have researched like crazy. I have acquired almost all of my gear and I preparing to start my very first cycle in early January. I am psyched and ready to go. I have only a couple things I am unsure about... I read Mudman's "Cycles for the Newbie" and it has confused me about how much Test to take per week... I was planning on the following:
1-12 Test Cyp 500mg / week
1-11 Eq 400mg / week
1-12 Novla 10mg / day
PCT starting 2 weeks after last Test
14-16 Nolva 40mg / day
16-18 Nolva 20mg / day
Why am I confused? The above cycle has been recommended to me by a number of forum members, but I reread the Mudman Cycles for Newbie and noted that a cycle almost exactly like mine is there, but with only 400mg of Test Cyp per week. Is 500mg per week too much? Also, is the Nolva necessary during the cycle or should I just start it if nasty side effects start up?
Any help would be appreciated...
11-30-2004, 03:03 PM #2
drop the eq eq works better if run for at least 14 weeks imo
just run test for 12 weeks 500mg a wk is enough for a first cycle u will have great results if u eat properly which is most important
save eq for next cycle
btw u can get away with shooting 400mg a wk.
also split up ur injects and 2 shots a week like moday and fridays u will keep ur test levels more steady and have less side effects
Last edited by juiceinthehood; 11-30-2004 at 03:05 PM.
11-30-2004, 03:07 PM #3
i would take nolva at 10mg ed to be safe why wait for the sides to come first the goal is to prevent them not invite them
i would also do 200mg 2 times a wk. of cyp for 12 weeks its a good 1st cycle and u should gain alot off that
11-30-2004, 03:07 PM #4Member
- Join Date
- May 2004
Are you going to use Clomid during PCT??
-it says you are only using nolva.
11-30-2004, 03:09 PM #5
oh yeah ur goona need clomid for pct
pct nolva 20mg clomid i like 100mg for 3-4 weeks
start pct week 15
11-30-2004, 03:10 PM #6Originally Posted by juiceinthehood
I agree. The EQ will give you the best results if it's run longer than 12 weeks. For your first cycle I don't know if it's necessary. 500mg/wk of the test is fine. You can do the EQ too if you want to, but like I said, it's best to run it longer than 12 weeks. That means that you would have to extend your entire cycle to facilitate this, because your test should be run a week past the EQ. I'm not certain that I'd run longer than 12-14 weeks on a first cycle. Take the nolva everyday too. 10mg. And with pct.
11-30-2004, 03:11 PM #7
weeks 1-12 test cyp 200mg 2x a wk.
weeks 1-14 nolva 10mg ed
weeks 15-18 nolva 20mg ed
weeks 15-17 clomid 100mg ed
11-30-2004, 03:41 PM #8
So, how long are you supposed to take Eq then? 15 weeks?
11-30-2004, 03:45 PM #9Originally Posted by BigJames
11-30-2004, 03:55 PM #10
Also, I have read that you can use Nolva instead of Clomid and actually have better recovery. Something about how both Clomid and Nolva are anti-estrogens, but that Clomid actually suppresses natural test production, while Novla encourages LH production which helps improve natural test production. Anyone have a comment on this?
11-30-2004, 03:59 PM #11
clomid increases test production roids suppress it u need clomid for pct or u will lose most if not all of what u gain
11-30-2004, 04:08 PM #12
Clomid just blocks estrogen doesn't it? So does Nolva...is there really a diff?
11-30-2004, 04:09 PM #13Originally Posted by BigJames
11-30-2004, 04:13 PM #14
Clomid will restart your natural test, you deff want it
11-30-2004, 04:17 PM #15
This is why I am confused...according to the science they do the same thing...and neither of them actually actively restart your test production...they assist in restarting it by blocking the estrogen that inhibits it...
Seriously though, I am not gonna mess myself up...if everyone says do the Clomid, I will get some...I do not want to screw this up. I am just trying to make sense of what I am reading...that is all.
11-30-2004, 04:19 PM #16Originally Posted by BigJames
clomid does if u dont take ur wasting ur $ on gear bcuz u will lose what u gain its that simple in ur clomid vs nolva post i gave u 2 links 1 for clomid 1 for nolva read them
Last edited by juiceinthehood; 11-30-2004 at 05:39 PM.
11-30-2004, 04:34 PM #17
I read em...I am sold. I will start Clomid as you guys have recommended...I will use the Nolva as required during the cycle...
11-30-2004, 05:39 PM #18Originally Posted by BigJames
11-30-2004, 06:14 PM #19
Clomid and Nolvadex
I am not sure how Clomid and Nolvadex became so separated in the minds of bodybuilders. They certainly should not be. Clomid and Nolvadex are both anti-estrogens belonging to the same group of triphenylethylene compounds. They are structurally related and specifically classified as selective estrogen receptor modulators (SERMs) with mixed agonistic and antagonistic properties. This means that in certain tissues they can block the effects of estrogen, by altering the binding capacity of the receptor, while in others they can act as actual estrogens, activating the receptor. In men, both of these drugs act as anti-estrogens in their capacity to oppose the negative feedback of estrogens on the hypothalamus and stimulate the heightened release of GnRH (Gonadotropin Releasing Hormone). LH output by the pituitary will be increased as a result, which in turn can increase the level of testosterone by the testes. Both drugs do this, but for some reason bodybuilders persist in thinking that Clomid is the only drug good at stimulating testosterone. What you will find with a little investigation however is that not only is Nolvadex useful for the same purpose, it should actually be the preferred agent of the two.
Studies conducted in the late 1970's at the University of Ghent in Belgium make clear the advantages of using Nolvadex instead of Clomid for increasing testosterone levels (1). Here, researchers looked the effects of Nolvadex and Clomid on the endocrine profiles of normal men, as well as those suffering from low sperm counts (oligospermia). For our purposes, the results of these drugs on hormonally normal men are obviously the most relevant. What was found, just in the early parts of the study, was quite enlightening. Nolvadex, used for 10 days at a dosage of 20mg daily, increased serum testosterone levels to 142% of baseline, which was on par with the effect of 150mg of Clomid daily for the same duration (the testosterone increase was slightly, but not significantly, better for Clomid). We must remember though that this is the effect of three 50mg tablets of Clomid. With the price of both a 50mg Clomid and 20mg Nolvadex typically very similar, we are already seeing a cost vs. results discrepancy forming that strongly favors the Nolvadex side.
Pituitary Sensitivity to GnRH
But something more interesting is happening. Researchers were also conducting GnRH stimulation tests before and after various points of treatment with Nolvadex and Clomid, and the two drugs had markedly different results. These tests involved infusing patients with 100mcg of GnRH and measuring the output of pituitary LH in response. The focus of this test is to see how sensitive the pituitary is to Gonadotropin Releasing Hormone. The more sensitive the pituitary, the more LH will be released. The tests showed that after ten days of treatment with Nolvadex, pituitary sensitivity to GnRH increased slightly compared to pre-treated values. This is contrast to 10 days of treatment with 150mg Clomid, which was shown to consistently DECREASE pituitary sensitivity to GnRH (more LH was released before treatment). As the study with Nolvadex progresses to 6 weeks, pituitary sensitivity to GnRH was significantly higher than pre-treated or 10-day levels. At this point the same 20mg dosage was also raising testosterone and LH levels to an average of 183% and 172% of base values, respectively, which again is measurably higher than what was noted 10 days into therapy. Within 10 days of treatment Clomid is already exerting an effect that is causing the pituitary to become slightly desensitized to GnRH, while prolonged use of Nolvadex serves only to increase pituitary sensitivity to this hormone. That is not to say Clomid won't increase testosterone if taken for the same 6 week time period. Quite the opposite is true. But we are, however, noticing an advantage in Nolvadex.
The Estrogen Clomid
The above discrepancies are likely explained by differences in the estrogenic nature of the two compounds. The researchers' clearly support this theory when commenting in their paper, "The difference in response might be attributable to the weak intrinsic estrogenic effect of Clomid, which in this study manifested itself by an increase in transcortin and testosterone/estradiol-binding globulin [SHBG] levels; this increase was not observed after tamoxifen treatment". In reviewing other theories later in the paper, such as interference by increased androgen or estrogen levels, they persist in noting that increases in these hormones were similar with both drug treatments, and state that," …a role of the intrinsic estrogenic activity of Clomid which is practically absent in Tamoxifen seems the most probable explanation".
Although these two are related anti-estrogens, they appear to act very differently at different sites of action. Nolvadex seems to be strongly anti-estrogenic at both the hypothalamus and pituitary, which is in contrast to Clomid, which although a strong anti-estrogen at the hypothalamus, seems to exhibit weak estrogenic activity at the pituitary. To find further support for this we can look at an in-vitro animal study published in the American Journal of Physiology in February 1981 (2). This paper looks at the effects of Clomid and Nolvadex on the GnRH stimulated release of LH from cultured rat pituitary cells. In this paper, it was noted that incubating cells with Clomid had a direct estrogenic effect on cultured pituitary cell sensitivity, exerting a weaker but still significant effect compared to estradiol. Nolvadex on the other hand did not have any significant effect on LH response. Furthermore it mildly blocked the effects of estrogen when both were incubated in the same culture.
To summarize the above research succinctly, Nolvadex is the more purely anti-estrogenic of the two drugs, at least where the HPTA (Hypothalamic-Pituitary-Testicular Axis) is concerned. This fact enables Nolvadex to offer the male bodybuilder certain advantages over Clomid. This is especially true at times when we are looking to restore a balanced HPTA, and would not want to desensitize the pituitary to GnRH. This could perhaps slow recovery to some extent, as the pituitary would require higher amounts of hypothalamic GnRH in the presence of Clomid in order to get the same level of LH stimulation.
Nolvadex also seems preferred from long-term use, for those who find anti-estrogens effective enough at raising testosterone levels to warrant using as anabolics. Here Nolvadex would seem to provide a better and more stable increase in testosterone levels, and likely will offer a similar or greater effect than Clomid for considerably less money. The potential rise in SHBG levels with Clomid, supported by other research (3), is also cause for concern, as this might work to allow for comparably less free active testosterone compared to Nolvadex as well. Ultimately both drugs are effective anti-estrogens for the prevention of gyno and elevation of endogenous testosterone, however the above research provides enough evidence for me to choose Nolvadex every time.
bottom line is you need either one of them for postcycle therapy ideally both.like he said Nolvadex would seem to provide a better and more stable increase in testosterone levels, and likely will offer a similar or greater effect than Clomid for considerably less money.
oc Natl Acad Sci USA 76:4460-3,1079
11-30-2004, 06:15 PM #20
I would go with pheednos pct and take both
11-30-2004, 06:27 PM #21
I will take both.
11-30-2004, 06:34 PM #22
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