how much bromo/dostinex should be used with tren?

**jgg1221** · 03-21-2005, 01:36 AM

ok with tren ive heard from some places that you need to take a anti-prolactin such as dostinex/bromocriptine
ive also heard from other places that you dont need to take that at all

but im wondering, granted you really need to take dostinex/bromo, how much would you take... considering say 37.5mg/ed or maybe 75mg/ed (tren ace)

**macgyver_48** · 03-21-2005, 01:41 AM

enough so that your titties stop leaking.

seriously tho, dostinex and bromo are two different drugs. and try the b-6 route first.

**Dude-Man** · 03-21-2005, 11:11 AM

why on earth would he use a chemical that can be neurotoxic in its effective doses (b6) over a drug like dostinex, which has very few negative side effects and a bunch of positive ones?

Dostinex all the way. 1/4 mg every 4 days.

Originally Posted by macgyver_48

enough so that your titties stop leaking.

seriously tho, dostinex and bromo are two different drugs. and try the b-6 route first.

**macgyver_48** · 03-21-2005, 12:47 PM

interesting stuff:

From [email protected] Tue Aug 16 22:33:15 PDT 1994

[email protected] (JENNIFER A. BEARDSLEY) writes:

>I have experienced finger pains from the combination of typing/climbing/
>writing, and I have found that two 100mg B-6 vitamins help a lot! Also
>drinking cherry juice.

Anyone considering this dosage should look at some of the recent
posts over in sci.med.nutrition. Side effects have been reported
at doses as low as about 120mg per day.

When I told a general practioner the other day that I was taking
50mg of B-6 per day in a B-complex tablet, she said she thought
it wouldn't hurt, but agreed I shouldn't get my hopes up.

Eric Hirst
[email protected]

Here is some of the stuff I have collected from there. Attributions
removed, as context may be bogus, but thanks to MB. See sci.med.nutrition.

[Stuff from another discussion follows.]
************************************************** **************************

>I know that the typicalintake for Americans is around 1-2mg and that the RDA
>is 2mg. However, there seem to be many multi-vitamins
>that contain around 75mg. Is 75mg plus normal
>daily intake completely safe? Please let me know if
>you have information on any studies done on this.

"Pyridoxine may cause a sensory neuropathy in doses as low as 200 mg daily
over 3 years (usually 2-5 gm daily). The neurotoxicity is believed to be due
to exceeding the liver's ability to phosphorylate pyridoxine to the active
coenzyme, pyridoxal phosphate. The resulting high pyridoxine blood level
could be directly neurotoxic or may compete for binding sites with pyridoxal
phosphate resulting in a relative deficiency of the active metabolite (Parry,
GJ, Bresden DE. Sensory neuropathy with low dose pyridoxine. <Neurology>
35:1466068, 1985)."

But here's the point. You can supplement in the Pyridoxal 5-Phosphate form,
and negate this concern. Several vitamin manufacturers use P5P in their
products for this reason.

************************************************** **************************
> I was reading in Optimum Sports Nutrition (Michael Colgan)
> about vitamin B6 toxicity at 500mg/day over several months
> causing severe nerve damage. He also mentions a study of toxicity at
> 117mg/day... apparently 6 months of low B6 intake
> reverses most of the damage.

B6 had been considered nontoxic. Sensory neuropathy has occured in people
taking 500 mg of B6 per day. This high dose often results in irreversible
damage. Doses as low as 200 mg per day ("Sensory neuropathy with low-dose
pyridoxine"; Neurology,35:1466,1985) and 117 mg per day ("characteristics
of pyridoxine overdose neuropathy syndrome" Acta Neurol Scand, 76:8,1987)
have also produced neurotoxicity but the symptoms disappear when B6
supplementation is stopped (can take upto 6 months for a complete
reversal).

In another group of people, 100 mg of B6 per day did not cause
neurotoxicity but it did impair memory formation ("Impairment of
memorization by high dose pyridoxine in man", Biomedicine, 32:88, 1980).

The toxicity of B6 seems to be due to liver overlaod (liver is supposed to
convert pyridoxine to pyridoxal phosphate). The high blood levels of
pyridoxine are believed to cause the nerve damage ("Pyridoxine neuropathy"
Med J Aust 146:640, 1987). Taking B6 as pyridoxal phosphate may avoid
toxicity. Anyone with poor liver function should not be taking megadose
B6.

> I am wondering if anyone has more information about
> what level of B6 is dangerous. I know that the typical
> intake for Americans is around 1-2mg and that the RDA
> is 2mg. However, there seem to be many multi-vitamins
> that contain around 75mg. Is 75mg plus normal
> daily intake completely safe? Please let me know if
> you have information on any studies done on this.

I would not exceed 50 mg per day. While over 40 different drugs have been
shown to increase the B6 requirement in man, the increased requirement can
be easily met without going above 50 mg of B6 per day. 71% of U.S. males
amd 90% of U.S. females are currently getting less than the U.S. RDA for
B6. The B6 requirement increases dramatically during pregnancy and 50% of
all pregnant U.S. women were found to be deficient in B6 when lab tests on
their B6 status were run. In this deficient population, 20 mg of B6 was
needed each day to restore them to a normal B6 status ("Vitamin B6 status
in Pregnancy", Am J Clin Nutr 26(12):1339, 1973). Women on birth control
pills have been found to need 10 mg of B6 per day. Even in patients being
given isoniazid (to treat TB), only 50 mg of B6 is needed each day to
offset the peripheral neuritis that occurs in about 17% of the patients
being given isoniazaid (isoniazid acts as a competitve inhibitor
of pyridoxal phosphate for the enzyme apotryptophanse).

**macgyver_48** · 03-21-2005, 12:49 PM

also curious about this one since dostinex is a dopamine agonist:

Vitamin B6 level is associated with symptoms of depression.

Hvas AM, Juul S, Bech P, Nexo E.

Department of Clinical Biochemistry, Aarhus University Hospital, AKH, Aarhus, Denmark. [email protected]

BACKGROUND: A low level of vitamin B6 might theoretically cause depression as vitamin B6 is a cofactor in the tryptophan-serotonin pathway. In the present study, we examined the association between depression and the phosphate derivative of vitamin B6 in plasma, pyridoxal phosphate (PLP). METHODS: In 140 individuals, symptoms of depression were evaluated by the Major Depression Inventory, and biochemical markers of vitamin B deficiency were measured. RESULTS: We found that 18 (13%) individuals were depressed. A low plasma level of PLP was significantly associated with the depression score (p=0.002). No significant association was found between depression and plasma vitamin B12 (p=0.13), plasma methylmalonic acid (p=0.67), erythrocyte folate (p=0.77), and plasma total homocysteine (p=0.16). CONCLUSION: Our study suggests that a low level of plasma PLP is associated with symptoms of depression. Randomized trials are now justified and needed in order to examine whether treatment with vitamin B6 may improve symptoms of depression.

PMID: 15479988 [PubMed - indexed for MEDLINE]

**macgyver_48** · 03-21-2005, 12:50 PM

Pyridoxine (vitamin B6) neurotoxicity: enhancement by protein-deficient diet.

Levine S, Saltzman A.

Nathan S. Kline Institute for Psychiatric Research, Orangeburg, New York 10962, USA. [email protected]

Large doses of pyridoxine cause injury to the primary sensory neurons in trigeminal and dorsal root ganglia of animals and patients subjected to megavitamin therapy. The increased hazard to subjects with reduced renal excretory function has been explored previously. In the present work, the neurotoxicity of pyridoxine for rats was found to be increased by dietary protein deficiency. A mere 3 or 7 days of pretreatment with either of two protein-deficient diets were sufficient to accelerate and intensify the clinical neurological signs and histological lesions from pyridoxine injections. These results are caused, at least in part, by loss of body weight, decreased protein binding in serum and decreased consumption of water and decreased volume of urine, which reduce the urinary losses of the toxicant. The vitamers related to pyridoxine (pyridoxal, pyridoxamine) and the coenzyme (pyridoxal 5-phosphate) did not cause clinical signs or lesions similar to those produced by pyridoxine even when injected in maximum tolerated doses. Neither a protein-deficient diet nor bilateral nephrectomy changed the results with the vitamers.

PMID: 15558839 [PubMed - indexed for MEDLINE]

**Mesomorphyl** · 03-21-2005, 12:51 PM

If you read your own literature you will find 200 did have some neurological effects, and can take up to 6 months for complete reversal... I think dude-mans point was like someone asking if 6oxo is like hcg ... or is trib the same as clomid... get it???

**Dude-Man** · 03-21-2005, 12:54 PM

A year's worth of cabergoline (dostinex) costs about 75 dollars. Having sensation in your hands and feet is priceless.. especially when you're looking at B6 maybe helping you, vs dostinex DEFINITELY helping.

Note, you still need an antiestrogen.

**macgyver_48** · 03-21-2005, 12:56 PM

Originally Posted by Mesomorphyl

If you read your own literature you will find 200 did have some neurological effects, and can take up to 6 months for complete reversal... I think dude-mans point was like someone asking if 6oxo is like hcg... or is trib the same as clomid... get it???

i did read my own literature, i was posting studies in agreement since i hadn't heard of b-6 being neurotoxic until now. but don't deny that b-6 gets the job done, comparing it to trib doesn't make any sense.

**Dude-Man** · 03-21-2005, 12:58 PM

B-6 is never used in real life medicine for treatment of gynecomastia or tumors of the breast.

Gee, i wonder why.

Originally Posted by macgyver_48

i did read my own literature, i was posting studies in agreement since i hadn't heard of b-6 being neurotoxic until now. but don't deny that b-6 gets the job done, comparing it to trib doesn't make any sense.

**Mesomorphyl** · 03-21-2005, 01:01 PM

Originally Posted by macgyver_48

i did read my own literature, i was posting studies in agreement since i hadn't heard of b-6 being neurotoxic until now. but don't deny that b-6 gets the job done, comparing it to trib doesn't make any sense.

Listen macgyver... I compared trib to clomid, as dude compared b-6 to dostenix... you aren't very smart are you?

**macgyver_48** · 03-21-2005, 01:03 PM

and neither are superphysiological doses of AAS used in HRT. what's your point? does b6 get the job done or not?

**Dude-Man** · 03-21-2005, 01:03 PM

lol @ "listen macgyver"

Sounds like something i've said on a camping trip to one of my idiot buddies who was trying to light a campfire with a magnifying glass.

**macgyver_48** · 03-21-2005, 01:04 PM

Originally Posted by Mesomorphyl

Listen macgyver... I compared trib to clomid, as dude compared b-6 to dostenix... you aren't very smart are you?

i don't think you're following me: you compared the efficacy of trib to that of clomid.

now that we're on the same page, trib is bullsh1t. b6 works for most people.

**Dude-Man** · 03-21-2005, 01:05 PM

You're missing the forest through the trees. The point is that AAS ARE used in medicine for HRT. Tribulus is not. Dostinex IS used to treat gynecomastia and breast tumors (prolactinomas). B6 is not.

Would you ever tell someone to use only 6-oxo and tribulus for PCT? Maybe.

Only if they didn't have access to nolvadex and clomid.

Originally Posted by macgyver_48

and neither are superphysiological doses of AAS used in HRT. what's your point? does b6 get the job done or not?

**macgyver_48** · 03-21-2005, 01:13 PM

J Clin Endocrinol Metab 1976 Mar;42(3):603-6

Effect of pyridoxine on human hypophyseal trophic hormone release: a possible stimulation of hypothalamic dopaminergic pathway.

Delitala G, Masala A, Alagna S, Devilla L.

A single dose of pyridoxine (300 mg iv) produced significant rises in peak levels of immunoreactive growth hormone GH and significant decrease of plasma prolactin PRL in 8 hospitalized healthy subjects. Serum glucose, luteinizing hormone LH, follicle stimulating hormone FSH and thyrotropin TSH were not altered significantly. In addition, in 5 acromegalic patients who were studied with both L-dopa and pyridoxine, inhibition of GH secretion followed either agent in a similar pattern. These data suggest a hypothalamic dopaminergic effect of pyridoxine.

===============================
N Engl J Med 1982 Aug 12;307(7):444-5

Pyridoxine (B6) suppresses the rise in prolactin and increases the rise in growth hormone induced by exercise.

Moretti C, Fabbri A, Gnessi L, Bonifacio V, Fraioli F, Isidori A.

=====================================
Boll Soc Ital Biol Sper 1984 Feb 28;60(2):273-8

[Influence of administration of pyridoxine on circadian rhythm of plasma ACTH, cortisol prolactin and somatotropin in normal subjects]

[Article in Italian]

Barletta C, Sellini M, Bartoli A, Bigi C, Buzzetti R, Giovannini C.

The influence of vitamin B6 in a dosage of 300 mg X 2 in 24 hrs, on circadian rhythm of plasmatic ACTH, cortisol, prolactin and somatotropin have been studied in 10 normal women. After vitamin B6 24 hrs pattern of ACTH and cortisol is unchanged; prolactin levels are slightly lower, in a statistically unsignificant proportion the night peak of growth hormone is higher in a statistically significant proportion (p. 0.05). The effect of vitamin B6 is likely to me mediated by dopaminergic receptors at hypothalamic level as previous studies by other Authors appear to prove.

**Dude-Man** · 03-21-2005, 01:18 PM

That's nice. That totally outweighs the risk of losing sensation in my hands and feet for me, i don't know about the rest of you guys. Screw FDA approved medicines with almost no negative side effects. I'm just gonna live on vitamins!

Seriously, you're starting to remind me of all these newbies that only want to be told what they want to hear. "16 is too young to juice? no way! i'm mature enough, you guys are wrong!"

I'm not going to try to convince you mac, it's your body. But i strongly suggest to everyone else, stay away from B6. A year's supply of cabergoline only costs 75 dollars!

Originally Posted by macgyver_48

J Clin Endocrinol Metab 1976 Mar;42(3):603-6

Effect of pyridoxine on human hypophyseal trophic hormone release: a possible stimulation of hypothalamic dopaminergic pathway.

Delitala G, Masala A, Alagna S, Devilla L.

A single dose of pyridoxine (300 mg iv) produced significant rises in peak levels of immunoreactive growth hormone GH and significant decrease of plasma prolactin PRL in 8 hospitalized healthy subjects. Serum glucose, luteinizing hormone LH, follicle stimulating hormone FSH and thyrotropin TSH were not altered significantly. In addition, in 5 acromegalic patients who were studied with both L-dopa and pyridoxine, inhibition of GH secretion followed either agent in a similar pattern.These data suggest a hypothalamic dopaminergic effect of pyridoxine.

===============================
N Engl J Med 1982 Aug 12;307(7):444-5

Pyridoxine (B6) suppresses the rise in prolactin and increases the rise in growth hormone induced by exercise.

Moretti C, Fabbri A, Gnessi L, Bonifacio V, Fraioli F, Isidori A.

=====================================
Boll Soc Ital Biol Sper 1984 Feb 28;60(2):273-8

[Influence of administration of pyridoxine on circadian rhythm of plasma ACTH, cortisol prolactin and somatotropin in normal subjects]

[Article in Italian]

Barletta C, Sellini M, Bartoli A, Bigi C, Buzzetti R, Giovannini C.

The influence of vitamin B6 in a dosage of 300 mg X 2 in 24 hrs, on circadian rhythm of plasmatic ACTH, cortisol, prolactin and somatotropin have been studied in 10 normal women. After vitamin B6 24 hrs pattern of ACTH and cortisol is unchanged; prolactin levels are slightly lower, in a statistically unsignificant proportion the night peak of growth hormone is higher in a statistically significant proportion (p. 0.05). The effect of vitamin B6 is likely to me mediated by dopaminergic receptors at hypothalamic level as previous studies by other Authors appear to prove.

**macgyver_48** · 03-21-2005, 01:49 PM

i guess we'll "agree to disagree" bro.

i'm just looking at it like this:

1)b6 will work for most people, if it doesn't, you're out 4 bucks.

2)the way i understand it, if you get side effects, you feel them immediately (tingling hands) and can then discontinue use. the nerve effects are completely reversible from that point.

3)the positive side effects? for me, i'd rather just bust one, eat a sandwich and fall asleep, but that's just me lol.

anyway, i never said don't use dostinex, just try b6 first. maybe it works for you, great. if not, i'm all for dostinex.

**Josey Wales** · 03-21-2005, 02:55 PM

I am dubious of these studies because for nearly 40 years B6, in doses as high as 800mg/day, has been used to treat autistic children. There are many cases of children losing the diagnosis altogether by ingesting high doses of B6. Obviously, children have lower body mass than adults so you would think that the symptoms noted in these studies would be rampant in this population. But they are not.

Leaving aside the question of the validity of these studies, the article above does reference the alternative use of P5P, which is the biologically active form of B6. I would think cautious types would want to use P5P first before resorting to a powerful drug like Dostinex or Bromo (which, btw, has its own side effects issues).

**Dude-Man** · 03-21-2005, 03:11 PM

Originally Posted by Josey Wales

I am dubious of these studies because for nearly 40 years B6, in doses as high as 800mg/day, has been used to treat autistic children. There are many cases of children losing the diagnosis altogether by ingesting high doses of B6. Obviously, children have lower body mass than adults so you would think that the symptoms noted in these studies would be rampant in this population. But they are not.

Leaving aside the question of the validity of these studies, the article above does reference the alternative use of P5P, which is the biologically active form of B6. I would think cautious types would want to use P5P first before resorting to a powerful drug like Dostinex or Bromo (which, btw, has its own side effects issues).

Bromo does have issues with negative side effects, dostinex does not. That's why i don't advocate bromo.