clen after AAS to keep gains...

[Moosepellet]

Its good to see that everyone testosterone levels are up and working!

[CRUISECONTROL]

Its good to see that everyone testosterone levels are up and working!

lmao

Thanks for the laugh moose

[mark956101957]

Its good to see that everyone testosterone levels are up and working!

I was just thinking that or a few people are on tren right now. LOL

[timtim]

using that term noob like you know me because of my post count is pretty funny. good assumptions.

asking for studies to back up your claim:

I just posting my opinions on clen and the facts from other studies

is not a flame, nor is it:

Timtim called Me out stating that I make Blanket claims When I was actually posting scientific facts......... I do not take kindly to someone bashing my name like that

bashing? what scientific facts did you state? nothing, you reiterated what you read and cut and pasted a bunch of work from someone else. you made claims that are "scientific" without ever saying anything scientific besides posting profiles. you couldn't reproduce 1 line from one of these studies. that is how you prove something and collect data to support your claims. you did none of that and that is what i asked for. then YOU began with the "noob" and "shut the **** up".

you need to relax and reread my posts, i wanted the studies for my good to change my mind. you got all huffy and started the typical internet bs. your way too sensitive if my posts were taken as a flame, WAY TOO SENSITIVE.

to make everything better, here - for you second place for being a cry baby about the whole thing.

j/k

[G-Force]

this thread has reached.....
The Dark Side

[CRUISECONTROL]

using that term noob like you know me because of my post count is pretty funny. good assumptions.

asking for studies to back up your claim:

is not a flame, nor is it:

bashing? what scientific facts did you state? nothing, you reiterated what you read and cut and pasted a bunch of work from someone else. you made claims that are "scientific" without ever saying anything scientific besides posting profiles. you couldn't reproduce 1 line from one of these studies. that is how you prove something and collect data to support your claims. you did none of that and that is what i asked for. then YOU began with the "noob" and "shut the **** up".

you need to relax and reread my posts, i wanted the studies for my good to change my mind. you got all huffy and started the typical internet bs. your way too sensitive if my posts were taken as a flame, WAY TOO SENSITIVE.

to make everything better, here - for you second place for being a cry baby about the whole thing.

j/k

Obviously you cant post something without being childish...........The J/k at the end, oh yeah I'm sure you were..............

What is a profile? The compilation of FACTS from other studies, reports, etc to explain how a drug works.......... I posted statements from a profile and gave reference to that profile (which is where I did My research)........ In that profile, if you read it! you would read the numerous references used to complete that profile...... If you want to argue the statements in that profile, then pm Hooker and tell him he's full of Sh!t.............You did nothing positive in this thread...........

I actually answered the question correctly and gave reference to where I got my answer (which is a fact!)......... You on the otherhand expressed your dislike of the product (which is an opinion) and went looking for an arguement, made no sense and acted in a childish manner IMHO........Which is why I referred to you as a noob, not cause of your post count but because of your actions........

You've said your peace and now I've said mine...........Lets leave it at that

Let the readers decide who won what

[Dave321]

I have a giant penis and thought all you people should know... warn your girlfriends.

[RA]

I have a giant penis and thought all you people should know... warn your girlfriends.

I thought you used it for mud boggin.

[Dave321]

I thought you used it for mud boggin.

either way... it's being used!!!

[RA]

either way... it's being used!!!

lol, I love your new avatar.

[CRUISECONTROL]

I thought you used it for mud boggin.

LMAO

[Dave321]

lol, I love your new avatar.

yeah, it's quite suitable for the name... I don't think it would be the same without it... I feel like such a homo... wait.... I am such a homo! fvk!

[CRUISECONTROL]

Another thread turned gay

[Dave321]

now... back on topic... I am being the 15 minute intermission and the show must now go on! Argue Away!

[CRUISECONTROL]

now... back on topic... I am being the 15 minute intermission and the show must now go on! Argue Away!

LOL Thanks Justin but I thought I delivered the final blow already

[RA]

LOL Thanks Justin but I thought I delivered the final blow already

Now whos turning gay?

[CRUISECONTROL]

Now whos turning gay?

ohhhhhhh thats hurts

[Dave321]

Now whos turning gay?

zzziiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiing!!!

[RA]

I got a million of em I tell ya.

[jucinator]

can you say roid rage !!!ha ha ha

[timtim]

please, i could care less. the j/k was serious as i thought that last bit of my post was just funny. the fact that you take it seriously and get all sensitive is even more funny.

want to avoid meaningless garbage like this, don't tell people to shut the f up.
let's remember, you started the name calling and bs. don't forget that. it's in the post, go back and read it.

all you did was say "here, hooker wrote this". now my opinion of clen was stated and i said it was clearly my OPINION, never tried to pass it off as anything else (if your trying to make a point of that, i never used buzz words like "scientific" and "fact" to make a leap at strengthening my argument, because the FACT is is that i was looking for information to back up YOUR claims to help myself). your still missing that point. if your gonna argue your point which is "fact", be prepared to show the evidence, not just "read someone else's work". i don't care what hooker wrote, i'm responding to your claims, not his. i know he knows his stuff, the debate wasn't between the three of us, just us. puts the onis on you to prove a point you so vigorously defend. it's not that hard to comprehend.

but like i said, who cares. you start something be prepared to hear back. i'm surprised that is so shocking. unless insulting people is normal for you which very well could be, who knows.

good luck with all future endeavors
p.s., that's not a joke or sarcasm, just well wishing.

[CRUISECONTROL]

Just for the record...... My claims were backed up by hookers profile, that IMO is evidence enough to support my claims..........
Once again you make no sense, You ask me to show evidence, so I show you Hookers profile and you refuse to accept that as evidence...... That sounds like a personal problem to me..............If you want further evidence, research the references that Hooker lists............ I supplied my evidence, I'm sorry that you are too ignorant to be able to read and understand them .................
And yes when you argue a statment that was took out of Hooker's profile, then guess what genius your arguing with him...........
Besides what did you ever show to contradict my statements (NOTHING)

You continue to open your mouth in an ignorant fashion..... You can not and will not win this argument

[timtim]

who's trying to win? who was trying to contradict your point? it's you who has to prove a point when you state fact. i don't need to add a thing to prove my point, because i gave no "scientific" fact nor did did i give a "scientific" opinion.

get off hooker's nuts man. all you've done is jump on his name when you were asked to prove YOUR point. why? because you have no clue what your talking about and he is your go to guy because you don't have a single independent thought in your head, your too ****ing lazy to even research YOUR, oh wait, hooker's, point.

here you go, some text on clenbuterol :
Clenbuterol is really one of bodybuilding's most misunderstood performance enhancement drugs. It is true that it is effective in helping to burn bodyfat but it is often been stated that clenbuterol is effective in causing anabolic gains and has in times even been compared to some of the weaker anabolic steroids . Books such as the World Anabolic Review, 1996, by P. Grunding and M. Bachmann state incorrectly that, "its effects, however, can by all means be compared to those of steroids . Similar to a combination of Winstrol Depot and Oxandrolone...." These statements are inaccurate and misleading to say the least. A lot of these claims as to the anabolic effects of clenbuterol are derived from studying the effects of clenbuterol on livestock. Clenbuterol is effective in increasing muscle mass and decreasing fat loss in animals. The problem with the variation in anabolic effects between humans and livestock is that livestock have an abundance of the type 3 beta receptors whereas humans have little if any of the type 3 beta receptors. These beta-3 receptors increases insulin secretion and sensitivity, causing more glucose and amino acids to be transported into skeletal muscle thus causing the anabolic effects that we, humans, just aren't seeing. As Dan Duchaine stated in his Muscle Media article on clenbuterol, "In those animal research studies showing an anabolic effect from clenbuterol, it's my guess the anabolism happens specifically when the beta2 receptor stops working. At that point, the beta3 increases and causes the anabolic effect through insulin mechanisms." Since humans, again, have either very little or no beta-3 receptors, there is no chance of this anabolic effect. Just another of the studies where everyone assumed that what works in animals must work in humans.

which follows with

Clenbuterol does work effectively as a fat burner though. It does this by slight increases in the body temperature. With each degree that the temperature in your body is raised from the use of clenbuterol, you will burn up approximately an extra 5% of maintenance calories. This makes it effective as a fat burner. Your body will fight this by cutting down on the amount of active thyroid in the body as well as through beta-receptor down regulation.

great, but research on green tea shows:
supplementing with green tea can raise your resting metabolic rate by 3%.

you wowed me man, clen is an extreme fat burner, a whole extra 2% increase in resting bmr over a natural supplement. wow! that is the make or break portion of the diet and regiment. shit on 2000 calorie a day diet with clen, you burn a whole extra 100 calories. with green tea you would burn 60 extra.

guess i just supported my argument that clen is not that good. but i was never arguing that, i was just giving my opinion. here's support for that that i never even needed.

you make claims that clen is anticatabolic:

Scientifically clen is supposed to work for keeping muscle during pct which is the answer to the posted thread question.......

prove it.

never heard of the clen studies done on rats? were you under a rock? they ****ing publicized the size of the leg muscles all over. you never saw this?

ok, again prove your points. with real text, not referrals.

still with the name calling. lowest comon denominator, but you don't seem too bright anyway.

your boring now.

[timtim]

and if you try and reply that the thermogenic increase is more than 5% because the effect increases with every temperature point your body increases, you better back that up with a studying conclusively showing the mean increases in body temperature of those who took part in the study. clen is not dnp and people's body temps don't fly through the roof. how do i know, i took my temperature everyday i was on it, as well as my training pals. merely slight increases of 1 to 2 points and it wasn't consistent, my temp never changed.

come on, back up your claims!

not hooker's.

do some research, prove a point that's yours'.

[RA]

[QUOTE=timtim]

here you go, some text on clenbuterol :
Clenbuterol is really one of bodybuilding's most misunderstood performance enhancement drugs. It is true that it is effective in helping to burn bodyfat but it is often been stated that clenbuterol is effective in causing anabolic gains and has in times even been compared to some of the weaker anabolic steroids . Books such as the World Anabolic Review, 1996, by P. Grunding and M. Bachmann state incorrectly that, "its effects, however, can by all means be compared to those of steroids . Similar to a combination of Winstrol Depot and Oxandrolone...." These statements are inaccurate and misleading to say the least. A lot of these claims as to the anabolic effects of clenbuterol are derived from studying the effects of clenbuterol on livestock. Clenbuterol is effective in increasing muscle mass and decreasing fat loss in animals. The problem with the variation in anabolic effects between humans and livestock is that livestock have an abundance of the type 3 beta receptors whereas humans have little if any of the type 3 beta receptors. These beta-3 receptors increases insulin secretion and sensitivity, causing more glucose and amino acids to be transported into skeletal muscle thus causing the anabolic effects that we, humans, just aren't seeing. As Dan Duchaine stated in his Muscle Media article on clenbuterol, "In those animal research studies showing an anabolic effect from clenbuterol, it's my guess the anabolism happens specifically when the beta2 receptor stops working. At that point, the beta3 increases and causes the anabolic effect through insulin mechanisms." Since humans, again, have either very little or no beta-3 receptors, there is no chance of this anabolic effect. Just another of the studies where everyone assumed that what works in animals must work in humans.



You should give credit to whoever wrote this.

[needbigguns]

Chill out guys i aswked a simple question, does clen help keep muscle due to its anti catabolic effect, i now belive the answer is YES, im going to run it PCT to burn collories too, how long should clen be run as i dont want to loose much weight just cut a lil BF and keep my as much of my gains as possible.

Dont jump on me n say use this or use that instead, im asking about clen, how much should i run and for how long.

chill out guys lol

[timtim]

You should give credit to whoever wrote this

believe me i was looking for it, came off a web page i googled and there was no credit given to a book, author, etc. i think it was cut and pasted without any recognition. same with the green tea info but that can be found anywhere when looking up high dose green tea. sorry.

here's another nice piece of info on clen :

Low Dose Clen Induces Cardiac Apoptosis (cell death of heart cells)
Originaly posted by nandi on CM board.

It's been known for some time that Clenbuterol at high doses causes cardiac necrosis. This study in animals shows that doses of 1 mcg/kg BW induce apoptosis (programmed cell death) in heart tissue. Humans not uncommonly ingest this much Clen. For instance, in a 220 lb (100 kg) bodybuilder this translates to 100 mcg. The CEM store sells Clen at a concentration of 200 mcg/ml! Other UG labs sell it at similar concentrations, ranging from 100 to 200 mcg per ml.


J Appl Physiol. 2004 Dec 10; [Epub ahead of print] Related Articles, Links

{beta}2-Adrenergic receptor stimulation in vivo induces apoptosis in the rat heart and soleus muscle.

Burniston JG, Tan LB, Goldspink DF.

Research Institute for Sports and Exercise Sciences, Liverpool John Moores University, Liverpool, United Kingdom.

High doses of the beta2-adrenergic receptor (AR) agonist, Clenbuterol, can induce necrotic myocyte death in the heart and slow-twitch skeletal muscle of the rat. However, it is not known if this agent can also induce myocyte apoptosis and whether this would occur at a lower dose than previously reported for myocyte necrosis. Male Wistar rats were given single subcutaneous injections of Clenbuterol. Immunohistochemistry was used to detect myocyte specific apoptosis (detected on cryosections using a caspase 3 antibody and confirmed using annexin V, single-strand DNA labelling and TUNEL). Myocyte apoptosis was first detected at 2 h, and peaked 4 h after Clenbuterol administration. The lowest dose of Clenbuterol to induce cardiomyocyte apoptosis was 1 microg kg(-1), with peak apoptosis (0.35 +/- 0.005 %; P<0.05) occurring in response to 5 mg kg(-1) . In the soleus, peak apoptosis (5.8 +/- 2 %; P<0.05) was induced by the lower dose of 10 microg kg(-1). Cardiomyocyte apoptosis occurred throughout the ventricles, atria and papillary muscles. However, this damage was most abundant in the left ventricular subendocardium at a point 1.6 mm, that is, approximately one-quarter of the way from the apex towards the base. beta-AR antagonism (involving propranolol, bisoprolol or ICI 118,551) or reserpine was used to show that clenbuterol-induced myocardial apoptosis was mediated through neuromodulation of the sympathetic system and the cardiomyocyte beta1-AR, whereas in the soleus direct stimulation of the myocyte beta2-AR was involved. These data show that when administered in vivo, beta2-AR stimulation by Clenbuterol is detrimental to cardiac and skeletal muscles even at low doses, by inducing apoptosis through beta1- and beta2-AR, respectively.

more info supporting my claim that clen is not that great.

[Dave321]

Is it time to bring back the penis comment?

[CRUISECONTROL]

Bravo timtim you finally posted something worth reading...........Too bad you couldn't come up with a reference......That makes it hearsay and or plagiarism .......

Yes I used statements out of Hookers profile....... I trust him just as the rest of the members at AR do.......... I dont have to look else where to support my claims cause its right here in AR...... Once again if you dont like it thats your problem not ours......

I think those charts should clearly illustrate the repartitioning effects of Clen , even though it is known that it’s effects on animals are typically much more dramatic than in humans….There’s still no doubt about it, in my mind…Clen will help you lose fat and gain muscle.So Let’s re-examine that first point I made: Clen vs. clen+excercise produce roughly the same results for the first 2 weeks! This tells me that the 2 weeks on and 2 weeks off schedule for clen dosing is far from optimal, and if you want the quasi-anabolic effect from the clen, it’ll take more than 2weeks on (6 weeks apparently). In addition, since clen alone is similar to clen+excercise for those first 2 weeks...why would you ever use a 2on/2off protocol? Keep in mind that animal responses to beta-agonist/antagonists differ a bit from ours…but I’m sure that you get the idea that 2on/2off is not a great dosing protocol. If I were using clen, I’d be using it for 6-12 weeks at a time, if I expected to get maximum results from it, but certainly, the most dramatic effects on fat loss appear to be in weeks 1-2. The reasons for the further increase in FFM around week 6 despite no changes in %fat or fat mass is not easily explained….. It might be that clenbuterol can increases FFM through another nonreceptor-mediated pathway, which would be very good for us, since the anabolic effects would also be applicable in humans, despite the fact that animals often respond more dramatically to beta-agonist/antagonists, due to receptor properties.. However, clenbuterol is highly lipophylic and can also enter muscle tissue (12), so that could indicate a possible mechanism of work. Maybe that would explain the significant increase in FFM of 13 kg in at 8 wks in the study? Certainly, muscle protein synthesis (MPS) must be a part of it, since clen will increase MPS in your body (17)…But it has even been speculated that the growth-promoting effect of clenbuterol may be specific to muscle and that the drug may act in a not-yet-understood manner which circumvents (!) the physiological mechanisms responsible for the control of muscle growth (13). This may mean that clenbuterol can help blast you past “sticking points” in your training by circumventing the usual mechanisms by which anabolism is experienced! It is of note that both muscle composition and fibre size has been shown to increase with administration of clen (14).

Reference: Yes once again Hookers profile on clen

[CRUISECONTROL]

Chill out guys i aswked a simple question, does clen help keep muscle due to its anti catabolic effect, i now belive the answer is YES, im going to run it PCT to burn collories too, how long should clen be run as i dont want to loose much weight just cut a lil BF and keep my as much of my gains as possible.

Dont jump on me n say use this or use that instead, im asking about clen, how much should i run and for how long.

chill out guys lol

Cool bro here's a thread that discusses dosages, etc

Clenbuterol handbook

and if you want to run it continually remember to take benadryl every third week for 1 week @ 50 -100 mg per night

Good luck

[dirtyvegas]

that's a profile, not a study. a study is where the points you made are found to be either true or false.

you seem to make blanket claims like :


i'm looking for these facts from those studies. i have seen little supporting these fantastic claims about clen and have personal experience to refute alot of it. that is the reason i want to see the studies. if i'm wrong i'd like to be corrected.

That profile is based on scientific studies.....

[CRUISECONTROL]

That profile is based on scientific studies.....

Thank you ~DV~

[dirtyvegas]

J/k had to do it

[Dave321]

J/k had to do it

ohhhhhhhhh you silly silly people!!!lmao though!!!

[dirtyvegas]

come on, back up your claims!

not hooker's.

do some research, prove a point that's yours'.

Are you a scientist or some shiit?? your points are not yours either,,sombody elses.

same goes for you then. DO SOME RESEARCH OF YOUR OWN NOT SOMBODY ELSES.

[CRUISECONTROL]

Since we are posting pics........Hey timtim

[timtim]

googled the information. found the same thing 4 times on 4 seperate sites, no references. not my problem. i proved MY point.

There’s still no doubt about it, in my mind…Clen will help you lose fat and gain muscle

see that, it's opinion. not fact.

what's funny is you use words like fact and scientific like they mean something to you. i found the info to support my claims, which were all opinion based. everything i supported was simply my opinion and i made it clear i was voicing my opinion. you have done nothing but site fact and scientific evidence while trying to use hooker's work, without ever, ever, ever siting fact or scientific evidence! and in the last case you cut and pasted information that was irrelevant to your argument. nice. you have done nothing to support your scientific claims except back them up with opinion.

you cut and paste hooker's work with no understanding of what your talking about and attempt to be snide and smart while calling people "noob".

here's a suggestion: stick to the name calling cause your not bright enough to have a conversation where you can differentiate between opinion and fact.

[timtim]

dirty vegas

profiles are not studies that prove points. they are profiles. studies explain a point like clen burns fat, and then proves it or disproves it via a study!!! yes, that strange, mystical thing called a study, they prove thesis. see the second article i posted, that's a study. see what he posted, it's a profile. thanks. save you opinions jerkoff, especially when it doesn't involve you.

****ing moron

mind your business or are you friends with cruisecontrol?

[CRUISECONTROL]

it's my guess the anabolism happens specifically when the beta2 receptor stops working. At that point, the beta3 increases and causes the anabolic effect through insulin mechanisms.

LOL this is an opinion in your study too

[dirtyvegas]

Do you know any pro use clen,T4, T3 and ephedrine without AAS. I am a pro and no I do not see.

IDE DEFINATLY LIKE TO SEE YOU PROVE THIS ......brag or fag??