12-28-2005, 06:07 PM #1
** Paul Borresen's short cycle thoery **
Article by Paul Borrenson
The following article was written by the late Paul Borrenson. .
Does the human race not strive for the security of mediocrity. It takes courage to stand out, to be different. To be controversial. Here I am perhaps a controversial amongst controversial's. Nobody would notice you if you where small. I guess you can live with a little attention.
Nobody is going to notice me if I rehash other peoples ideas. Guess I can live with that. I have worked hard for more than a decade coaching and learning to get to where I am now. I have pretty much personally experienced everything I write about. If I cannot defend it I will not say it.
If you have the knowledge to make you a 200 LB man then a 230 LB man will have controversial things to say and all the little 200 LB people will criticize the lone 230 LOB person. This is simply an extension of the drive for mediocrity.
THAT YOU CAN DETERMINE THE WEAKNESS OF A MANS PERSONALITY BY THE AMOUNT OF CRITISISM THAT COMES FROM HIS MOUTH.
I moved to a new house in country with my wife and children. Bought myself that Staffordshire Bull Terrier puppy and completed The Stack Book. I finally managed to read The History Of Western Philosophy after 3 years, trained ate, slept and attended to my business.
I imagine a dog with a bowl of chicken happily eating its food when three other dogs come along and start growling. They want the food. If the dog looks up from its meal and growls back at one of the dogs the other two will move in and steal the food. The dog with the chicken needs to keep his head down and continue eating. Eventually the other dogs will start fighting amongst themselves or move onto another potential victim.
This is an important lesson. If you are to truly succeed as a bodybuilder then you need to keep your eyes well and truly focused on your bowl of food. Focus, do not let things distract you from achieving your objectives. Before we get into hard core use of pharmaceuticals lets agree for the thousandth time that you have to eat every couple of hours, consume plenty of quality protein, train your butt off in the gym. Go to bed early each night.
Success is about being a participator rather than a spectator in your own life. Successful people do not stay up all night wrapped up in mindless gossip. They eat and get to bed.
From a platform of doing the basics we can open our eyes and our minds to untold possibilities. Scary stuff for the uninitiated. Remember the first time you injected yourself. Scary at the time and now you probably think nothing of it. Well, perhaps it is time to scare you again.
Extreme dose use of anabolic steroids does occur. It was inevitable given the mentality of us bodybuilders. I talk daily to people using 1- 5 grams a week. Not just the odd person hundred of people.
I am not advocating such use. However, I will tell you how it is done.
First it is not done all the time. It is a now and then stack to blast through sticking points. I am a part of a scientific study at The University Of South Glamorgan in Cardiff. WE are looking at long term steroid users and assessing their health over many parameters. The people that have injured themselves are the people that stay on small to moderate doses all of the time. Later in the year Fergal Grace and myself with have a few papers published supporting my claim.
I believe but do not as yet have the scientific evidence to support me that. High dose short duration cycles are much less harmful than longer moderate or even low dose courses.
I propose 15 - 30 day cycles with doses 1,000 mg a day.
Understand this, a course of this magnitude will produce rapid tissue gain and contradict much of what you currently believe. The possibility of it will attacked by skinny old men an ex champions alike. I say this, unless you have tried it do not knock it.
You are not going to hurt yourself in 25 days. If you keep a watch for the danger signs such as rising blood pressure you can make appropriate adjustments as you go along. After such a stack I would have 15 days clear. The stack should be designed in such as way that the gear eliminates as the off period begins.
I would then do a consolidation programme low dose. Under 1 mg per kg bodyweight per day for 6 weeks. The cycle logic I proposed in my first book The Anabolic Edge. Then I would have a 30 day break.
I believe that breaks longer than 30 days are unproductive. However, not having the breaks at all is downright stupid.
In our new book The Stack Book (the alpha session) Bill and I have a 10 point countdown before starting any programme let alone a big one.
Preparation is everything. I imagine an airplane ready to take off. It starts up it engine, taxis out onto the run way and builds up speed. All the while the pilot initiates pre-flight checks. If anything is wrong the plane aborts.
Too often we rush into programmes without adequate preparation and the plan comes crashing down.
Health matters. Sick people cannot possibly grow. So, if you are going to seriously have a crack at one of my short duration high dose programmes do the preflight checks first.
PREFLIGHT CHECKS COUNTDOWN TO THE STACKS……………..
Diet is good: lots of protein, balanced nutrition, not an entirely liquid diet. Any protein supplements, not whey alone, but blends of different isolates.
Getting plenty of quality rest. A good 8 hours every night. If not, then this could be the first pharmaceutical step you should consider. Something to help you sleep. Once you go on a stack this will get even harder. Unless you sleep well, in which case leave well alone, augment your sleep with a safe option.
Absolutely never use GHB…This is no bodybuilding drug and has screwed up more people that Cannabis and Nubain put together. I despise all of these drugs. I was once addicted to nubain and it crept up on me and swallowed me whole for a while.
GHB does stimulate serotonin and this makes for a little GH production, but it stimulates considerably more cortisol and this makes for the big muscle shrink.
I prefer a simple benzodiazapene taken intermittently to avoid the possibility of dependence. Twice or three times a week when you really need it. Products of choice are -
Lorazepam 50mg aka Seresta, aka oxazepan.
Diazepam 10-15 mg.
Tamazipam lingers the next day too much.
Another possibility is a good hypnotic which puts you to sleep but wears off once you are in deep sleep. These are non-addictive.
Benzo's are the world's ultimate GH stimulators as well. You must be careful to not take them then go out. Be strict on yourself and have deliberate nights when you do and do not use them. I use them after back and legs.
Stay away from the latest Hypnoval craze, you lose time on this drug and do not use Nubain under any circumstances, it is insidious and horrible and has ruined more bodybuilders than I can remember.
There is no point starting the stack if you cannot get to the gym over the next few weeks. Select a stack that is appropriate to your imminent lifestyle. Likewise, if you are injured or your wife is about to have a baby. Think before you launch before you press the fire button on the stack rocket. Are all systems go ?
Health. Are you ill ? If so, is it something that will clear up with a good course of antibiotics ? Remember, a gear course will first drop your immune system, so if you are sick now you will be worse shortly after and this will crash the rocket.
Most infections can easily be killed off using a course of antibiotics. Indeed there is the high possibility that you are low grade. What do I mean by this ?
Low grade means that you carry a virus in your body at a level, which your immune system can control but it cannot put out the fire.
A good friend of mine called Mick had not gained for two years. He was unmotivated, having problems sleeping and feeling very low. I studied his blood test and I suspected that he was low grade, his thyroid was low to mid-normal and his globulin was elevated, a clear sign of someone fighting an infection.
Mick took Inosine Pranobex for 20 days, 4 tablets a day. He has gained over 40 LB in the year since and his life changed within a week for the better. He had been low grade.
Inosine Pranobex fortifies the immune system against viral infection and I use a course twice a year or if I am run down cannot shake off a virus.
For general bacterial infections antibiotics are a must.
My preferences are: Doxycyline, 100mg per day.
Otherwise amoxicillin 3 times, 500mg per day combined with tetracycline which kills one particular anaerobe that amoxicillin cannot get.
For abscesses, you cannot beat Augmentin, which is far superior to fluhroxicillin; the cheaper alternative.
Finances: be sure that you can afford the stack you are about to undertake. There is no point over-stretching yourself and not having enough money to eat. I believe that the runway ahead should be clear from the start. I like to have everything I am going to need ready in my special cupboard at the start. This way you can always build little pyramids with the gearboxes and castles with the protein tubs.
Remove All demotivators. There are things that will bring our rocket down onto the ground . For the most part these are optional wrong choices that we are making in our daily lives and these must be eliminated immediately if we are truly hardcore and really going for the finish line. Cannabis is one of the worst drugs for bodybuilding that I can think of. It is the single most potent demotivator. Do not tell me that it stimulates androgen production or that it chills you out. I have seen a cannabis addict tear up his floorboards looking for something he had hidden.
Cannabis produces oestrogen, fact of life. Cannabis negatively affects the part of the mind that motivates us into taking action. It makes you do nothing when you should do something. Its users are prone to mood swings, irrational behavior, temper tantrums and worst of all a higher chance of bacterial infections.
Nubain. Second worst on the list. This is an opiate and single handedly destroyed an enormous section of British bodybuilding. It creeps up slowly on the users until they get needle frenzy and all the other aspects of an addiction .
I personally needed a week in detox to get rid of this stuff. Which is the only time I have been in detox, but it shows the extent of the Nubain problem. I entered with innocence thinking all those years ago that it suppressed my cortisol levels. It took me in, chewed me up and spat me out and I was still kicking and screaming.
GHB. Of late many people are getting GHB addiction and they are harder to deal with than straight heroin addicts. The users cannot feel good, no matter what they do, because they cannot produce enough seretonin. It appears that the damage is permanent and the only possible way back once you are really hooked is methadone.
People started having little sips throughout the day, which makes them, feel positive and more confident. This is similar to a cocaine addiction in perception and considerably worse because there is a genuine physical dependence with GHB.
ALCOHOL….The most obvious demotivator. I am not against the odd drink, but if you are going on a course and taking the risks involved there is no place for drinking.
Even the best-laid plans of men can go wrong. Commit yourself now to your plan and be prepared to make adjustments. Have definite goals for what you are about to do. You should know where you should be at any given time or date. If you fall behind you must know how the stack works and why it works and make the appropriate adjustment.
Chart your course, navigate the way ahead and you will be on course, stay on course and arrive at your destination.
POSITIVE ATTITUDE…..Be wary of people that will try to throw your rocket off course. Often these will be those closest to you. I find it better to keep quiet about what I am doing until I have done it. Negative people and negative thoughts must be thrown overboard right now.
SUPPORT SYSTEMS. I rely heavily on my family and they enable me to realize all that I achieve and succeed in. Even the writing of this book, right now my wife is keeping the children happy in the other room. This is a part of my support system. My friend Kevin is collecting me for training in an hour, My staff help take phone calls so that I can write the book. These support systems are vital and you need to know and plan to make sure they are all "on-line".
If everything goes wrong be prepared to make a conscious decision to abort early. If you fall ill or your dog gets sick and you cannot leave his side, then stop immediately regroup and start again later. The decision to abort should be made earlier rather than later. Do not press on regardless if the plane is going to come down, land now, not later.
Of course with all being well this will not be the case.
EXAMPLE OF A HIGH DOSE SHORT DURATION STACK
18 DAYS IN A MASSAGE PARLOUR STACK
This is a sophisticated stack and I wrote it for a current Mr. Universe to enable this person to gain more mass over the Christmas period. We use this stack on the back of a successful period of gains after competition. This is the second course for Mr. Universe since the show so his bodyweight has reached a plateau and something new and juicy is required to get things moving.
There is a need for oestrogen buffering firstly it is a good anti-catabolic strategy but also to keep control of the androgenic effects of the steroid aspects of this cycle.
1 Diazide tablet
Armidex 2 times 2mg per day
Two simple strategies were used. Insulin in the form of 30 IU Insulinard taken first thing in the morning rising by 5 IU a day until the peak of 55 IU was achieved. This does deliver a large dose of rapid acting insulin in the first 90 minutes as Insulintard is 30 percent fast acting. For this reason Mr. universe has to eat directly after taken the shot and again an hour later. Large meals with a total of 200 grams of carbohydrates which a 800 Kcals straight off.
Growth hormone taken in two microcyles throughout the 18 days of the cycle.
Days 5,6,7,8 4 IU each day take as two divided doses of 2 IU.
Days 12,13 8 IU taken as four divided doses of 2 IU
Also T3 at a small dose of 25 MCG a day was recommended. " days on one days off this is purely to increment metabolic activity.
THE ANTICATABOLIC ASPECT
We took 2 bottles of Capristan The real product. Both had 50 ML
ONLY AVAILABLE FROM MYSELF AT THE MOMENT.
We called them bottles A and B:
20 ML Deca 2,00
20 ML Primo Depot
10 ML Test propionate
20 Ml Testosterone Enanthate
20 Ml Sustanon
10 Ml Testosterone Propionate
This is how the course was structured. Remember this is a big man. Over 330 LB in good condition so you have to adjust accordingly…..
ALL SHOTS ARE LOCATED
DAYS 1- 5
10 Ml bottle A per day. Taken as 4 2.5 ML shots located.
5 Ml bottle A and 5 Ml bottle B taken each day.
DAYS 13 - 18
10 Ml Bottle B taken each day…….
I hope that you enjoy my material and if my work is appreciated
Thank you for the support and I look forward to flying to South Carolina later in the year for the hardest hitting seminar, we will try to stop the world from going round that day. I also have an on-line seminar coming up and if you watch the pages of this magazine they will keep you posted. Whatever you do, don't let the human drive for mediocrity slow you down. Decide for yourself.
PAUL R BORRESEN
Any thoughts guys?
12-28-2005, 06:13 PM #2
wow i almost read some of that before i realized how long it was. anyway if you can deal with 4 2.5ml injections a day then go for it, one is bad enough. how the hell would you be able to do it??? 2.5ml each glute 2.5 ml each quad day one then 2.5 ml each delt and 2.5ml each pec??? no matter how you slice it, it would be unbearable. i know id have test flu before day 1 even ended.
12-28-2005, 06:21 PM #3
Its worth reading jiggaman,you dont have to go as extreme as he did but there are some thories which i think can be addapted to suit.....
12-28-2005, 06:37 PM #4
i've read some of paul borreson's theories before. i like the idea-mega doses and short cycles. i think this kind of cycle is for the bodybuilder who has literally tried everything and basically can't grow anymore without the hormonal shock. i'm young so i wanna stay at around a gram a week right now. i've thought about trying something like a shot of sustanon ed and a shot of tren enan. eod and maybe a shot primo everyday for a month. i would definately go to the doc a few times (probably every week during cycle and then a few times for the next few weeks), i don't agree with the cannabis theory.. i smoke and i'm always motivated to lift.
12-28-2005, 08:05 PM #5
The following article was written by the late Paul Borrenson. .
12-28-2005, 08:43 PM #6Associate Member
Originally Posted by MarkinHouston
- Join Date
- Apr 2004
12-29-2005, 01:58 AM #7Originally Posted by MarkinHouston
As i previously said you dont have to go as far as PB did but let me tell you one thing..........the best in the world(BB world and medical) went to him for advice, and took it!........... 'NUFF SAID'.
12-29-2005, 02:36 AM #8
extralarg, how did paul die? just curious, im not asking for any other reason other than pure curiousity
12-29-2005, 02:42 AM #9Originally Posted by scotttiger54
to control the back pain Paul had nearly all of the time. ...
12-29-2005, 04:15 AM #10
I plan on running a short INTENSE blitz cycle in the next few months, heres what i come up with...
Dbol @ 50mg ED week 1-2
Anadrol @ 100mg ED week 2-4
Winny @ 50mg ED week 4-6 - Mainly to FURTHER reduce SHBG
Tren A @ 75mg EOD Week 1-6
Prop @ 100mg ED 1-6 Weeks
Masteron @ 100mg ED 1-6 Weeks
My goals are to put on a substancial amount of mass whilst being very ripped and hard, i am interested to try and short cycle and cant wait to run it !
Is there anything else you would suggest i could throw in or tweak...
Im switching up orals every 2 weeks, what do you guys think of this idea? Both Dbol and Anadrol can give decent results after 14 days so my theory is if i switch up just as the gains start to slow down i will shock my body and gain more !
Im throwing in Winny @ 50mg ED allthough im considering winny @ 75mg ED as im only running it for 2 weeks...One of the main reasons i am adding it is that it further reduced SHBG (Sex hormone binded gobulin)
12-29-2005, 05:19 AM #11
hey needbigguns...u don't need hcg IMO for that cycle, but it all depends on the person and i also don't believe in short cycles for a few simple reasons...i think longer cycles are better because ur body and tendons get used to lifting all the weight as proposed to short cycles ur body can't really adapt in that short of time. i think it makes more sense and would be much safer to spread it out over time with lower doses.
when u get a headache u don't take 10 aspirin..u take a few, so why over do it?
12-29-2005, 05:22 AM #12Originally Posted by flabbywussy
12-29-2005, 05:51 AM #13
this is somethin that i think i may try,maybe the year after this one,ive got my cycles mapped out and sorted for this year,so i may give this a try,but a lkittle scaled down,dont think i will be able to handle 5g a week,may aim for 3g???
12-29-2005, 06:02 AM #14Originally Posted by booz
1-10 test e 500mg ed
11-20 eq 400mg ed
21-30 prop 300mg ed
21-30 win 100mg ed
HGH 8iu ed week on week off
t4 50mcg with hgh
40mg nolva ed
50mg prov ed
Flame away!........i know eq should be run for a long time and all that....i will post results for anyone who is interested.Starting 01/01/06.
Last edited by Xtralarg; 12-29-2005 at 06:06 PM.
12-29-2005, 06:47 AM #15
Thanks XL for posting that article,
Paul was a genius in his field and i have had the pleasure to work with him and he was years ahead of his time, i think people are getting the wrong idea when they look at this article, these dosages he mentions are not something for you to try, that was designed for that individual and not you, when designing a cycle like this its down to your history and knowing your own body how it reacts,
Paul did upset a few people at the top because he was so out spoken but more or less paul was in contact with alot of them giving them advice, we all know it gets harder to keep building new muscle the longer you are on gear, it also seems impossible to recover from such use, eventually you will have to coast on a set amount per week just to feel normal and maintain everything, everytime you go back on you have to increase the dose or add further compounds to get any kind of results, you experienced guys know what am talking about it a vicious circle and if we are honest with ourselves we gain in the first part of any cycle and then its just maintenance,
people say you stay on for long cycles so you get use to being big, well thats true your body does gets use to it, thats why it gets harder to recover and bridging/coasting seems the only way forward even with all the hcg /clomid and all anti-catabolic compounds,your receptors react in an amazing way with a short shock cycle but its only for a short period so why stay on? come off recover and repeat, this is what we do naturally when we grow we only grow in short growth spuirts, example of this is a babys growth chart they release a high dose of HGH for short periods in a month and thats when they jump hugh gains in body mass, your body cant keep on doing this no matter what you put in it, the body gets use to it and reacts,
why coast/bridge to just to try to maintain what you have built, long term use does have health problems, this is why alot of top level BB's are using this method it is the underground talk with them all, with this methord you dont have to keep increasing the dose because your body really never gets use to it, this process is far safer and more productive in building muscle in the long term, i have a steriod diary which goes back years and i can honestly say when ive done this method its been better at maintianing/building muscle mass in the long term, i former Mr O told me the exactly the same thing he jump up some freaky mass when he used this system and could maintain it alot better, which is half the problem when taking gear MAINTENACE/RECOVERY.
Dont dismiss this theory
Dont get tunnel vision in thinking theres only one way to juice
Paul dedicated his whole life in studying and practising this theory and coach alot of top level BB's with outstanding results
12-29-2005, 10:50 PM #16
"Low grade means that you carry a virus in your body at a level, which your immune system can control but it cannot put out the fire.
A good friend of mine called Mick had not gained for two years. He was unmotivated, having problems sleeping and feeling very low. I studied his blood test and I suspected that he was low grade, his thyroid was low to mid-normal and his globulin was elevated, a clear sign of someone fighting an infection.
Mick took Inosine Pranobex for 20 days, 4 tablets a day. He has gained over 40 LB in the year since and his life changed within a week for the better. He had been low grade.
Inosine Pranobex fortifies the immune system against viral infection and I use a course twice a year or if I am run down cannot shake off a virus."
Xtralarge, Bro nice post! But you got me curious if I have low grade? I have been sick all winter, havent slept well, and it seems like and just havent had any energy, feeling really down. I have been to the Doc and had blood work taken but my Doc said its good. Gave me antibiotics but I just get to feeling shitty after i come off my Antibiotics. Im starting my cycle next week. My immune system is usually better when im on cycle.
What is "Inosine Pranobex"? Where do i get it?
12-29-2005, 11:09 PM #17Originally Posted by marcus300
Many thanks to you marcus,plus goose and XL, for bringing PB's theory to this board,and more so,to me.
Happy New Year to all my British friends!!
12-29-2005, 11:57 PM #18Originally Posted by xtralarg
it just seems common sense that if ur body gets used to all the weight it has gained (longer cycles)then it will be harder to lose it. also ur strength wouldn't drop as much either i believe because ur tendons would get use to the weight.
12-30-2005, 12:16 AM #19
"I propose 15 - 30 day cycles with doses 1,000 mg a day."
Well, that seems to purpose up to 7g's per week! Fuk. What are the opinions of effective receptor mapping? To find what the high-end should be for this type of cycle... based on an individuals recpetor availability/sensitivity...
12-30-2005, 12:51 AM #20VET Retired
- Join Date
- Dec 2001
It's not basked by any science I’ve seen so IMHO it’s BS. I'm sleepy I’ll pick it apart later.
12-30-2005, 01:10 AM #21Originally Posted by Terminator1
Hey I have heard of many behavioral health specialists talk about SADD (seasonal allergy depression disorder) I'm pretty sure thats what it stands for. Anyway basically you and many other including myself are allergic to a specific season, me being the winter. This allergy isnt on that can be cured with an antihistanmine but rather cause a significant decrease in certain Mood hormones.
It sounds kind of crazy but makes sense.
12-30-2005, 01:36 AM #22
im gonna have to stick to my guns on this one... i have always been a firm believer in longer cycles since i believe your body reaches a point of homeostasis and adapts to a different bw and can actually learn to carry it even with the discontinued use of gear. if you can't maintain the weight then why do this form of cycling? im no endocrinologist but i just have a hard time lying down with this one
12-30-2005, 01:37 AM #23
i do feel, however, that if you've completely plateaued then its worth a shot. if one is no longer seeing satisfying gains from conventional methods then what the hell, have at it. but still, for moderate users i don't feel this would be a step in the right direction
12-30-2005, 02:06 AM #24Anabolic Member
- Join Date
- Apr 2004
I've always like to read other views on the usage of AAS. I don't necissarily think one style of cycling is right for everyone. We're all going to reach differently to them.
I like the fact that PB was very contriversial. It's nice to have minds that make the thinkers think.
12-30-2005, 03:41 AM #25Originally Posted by ODC0717
In my 30 day cycle i will be having LESS aas in total than i would in a 16 week cycle and i will not be supressing myself for weeks on end.
Im not saying anyone or any method is wrong or right,Just that different methods suit different people and you will never know if you dont try.I am hoping for around a 20-30 lb gain in my 30 day cycle.I will post results as they happen.
12-30-2005, 04:23 AM #26Associate Member
- Join Date
- Oct 2004
From a standpoint of side-effects, I think that Borresson's short cycle theory makes a lot of sense. Virtually all of the health problems associated with anabolic steroids (kidney disease, liver disease,etc) have come from LONG term usage. There are not many documented cases of someone using steroids for a matter of weeks and coming down with significant health problems. However, remember that 3500 calories is ONE pound so you better be ready to get your feedbag on because even using those mega dosages, think how many calories you have to eat in 2-3 weeks just to put on maybe 20 lbs? Also, there is evidence that the body tends to move towards homeostasis, which means that if you put on weight too fast, the weight will come off very fast as the body returns to normal. The best evidence says that muscle gained slowly over time is the type of muscle that stays permanently. It's an interesting issue though.
12-30-2005, 04:28 AM #27Originally Posted by xtralarg
How did you come up with 500mg ED - 3500mg per week, of TE?
Last edited by Warrior; 12-30-2005 at 04:30 AM.
12-30-2005, 04:35 AM #28Originally Posted by STAYHUNGRY
He basis these short growth spirts on the growth spirt of humans when they are babies,they do not grow continusly week after week,they grow for a short period of time then stop for a while then off they go again.If we can put our body into a state of growt for 1 month then let it rest(not push for any more growth) and try to maintain as much as possable until the next onslaugt then he believes this method works better than a long period. In my personal experience i have gained very little after week 6 where i have put on 20lbs at times.......from there on its virtually impossable for ME to progress further in that cycle.
As I have said before,this may not be for everyone but it is for some im sure,its not going to kill you and it might just work,surely its got to be worth giving it a try for yourself,if you dont you will never know.
12-30-2005, 04:56 AM #29Originally Posted by xtralarg
12-30-2005, 07:01 AM #30Originally Posted by Pinnacle
i knew i would struggle trying to convince the people who are set in their ways at juicing, there are loads of evidence supporting this theory, just look back at your cycles and how you respond you have all the answers,
i am sure as lot of the people on here get older they will understand what i am trying to say with this theory, Why keep using loads of gear for long periods of time just to end up coasting and bridging just to maintain your muscle mass? with this theory you wont need to keep increasing the dose or even coast just to feel normal, and its bulids more muscle in the long run,
i do hope you all have a good look into Paul's theory DONT DISMISS IT,
Thanks Pinn for your support and feedback, i will PM you shortly with results from some clients who are trying this theory,
happy new year to all readers
12-30-2005, 11:23 AM #31Originally Posted by Warrior
12-30-2005, 11:28 AM #32Originally Posted by Warrior
Thank you Warrior, I am aware of the problems regarding connective tissue and as you said the HGH may help,this is what i am hoping.Also running it week on week off will hopefully not allow my body to 'get used' to the HGH,thus forcing it into growth spirts when 8-12iu's ed are added for that particular week.
12-30-2005, 03:55 PM #33
Something to consider:
Pulsatile secretion of gonadotropin releasing hormone (GnRH) from the hypothalamus is required for both the initiation and maintenance of the reproductive axis in the human. Pulsatile GnRH stimulates the biosynthesis of luteinizing hormone (LH) and follicle stimulating hormone (FSH) that in turn initiates endogenous testosterone production and spermatogenesis as well as systemic testosterone secretion and virilization. Failure of this episodic GnRH secretion or disruption of gonadotropin secretion results in the clinical syndrome of hypogonadotropic hypogonadism (HH).
The usage of anabolic androgenic steroids (AAS) may result in a functional form of HH known as Secondary Acquired Hypogonadotropic Hypogonadism and is diagnosed in the setting of a low testosterone level and sperm count in association with low or inappropriately normal serum LH and FSH concentrations.
In order to avoid any unnecessary confusion, it is important to understand what the actions of Gonadatropin therapy and Selective Estrogen Receptor Modulators are as well as how they differ from each other and more specifically, during post cycle recovery (PCT).
There is nothing more effective than Human Chorionic Gonadotropin (HCG ). The action of HCG is identical to that of pituitary LH. This takes place independently and is not affected by exogenous hormones and/or preexisting HPTA suppression. Therefore, it directly stimulates a dramatic increase in endogenous testosterone production, spermatogenesis and testicular volume. The primary goal during the first few weeks of PCT is to quickly restore testicular volume and function. Also, the dramatic increase in testosterone production is necessary to avoid and/or minimize the unfavorable "crash" effect. In the majority of individuals with larger testes at baseline, HCG alone is sufficient in restoring endogenous testosterone production as well at the induction of spermatogenesis which is most likely a result of residual FSH secretion. Once there is a plateau in the response to HCG, treatment with an FSH preparation such as human menopausal gonadotropin (HMG) or recombinant follicle stimulating hormone (rFSH) should be added in combination to HCG.
*The addition of an FSH preparation is rarely required and is best suited for severe cases of HH. FSH preparations are not readily available to most individuals. Therefore, there is no need to go into details with respect to its application at this time.
HCG is administered by subcutaneous (SC) or intramuscular (IM) injection. The average (3ml 22-25G x ?-1½") syringe is adequate for IM injections but insulin syringes (½-1ml 28-30G x ½-1") are recommended for SC injections. In regards to effectiveness, there should be no discernable difference between either of the techniques. The individual should opt for the most comfortable and/or convenient form of administration.
The following is a description of the available preparations by Serono:
HCG ampoules are supplied in 500, 1,000, 2,000, 5,000 and 10,000 IU preparations accompanied by 1 ml of sterile dilluent. It should be stored at a controlled room temperature (15-30 degrees C or 59-86 degrees F) and should be used immediately after reconstitution.
HCG multidose vials are supplied in 2,000, 5,000 and 10,000 IU preparations accompanied by 10 ml of bacteriostatic water. It should be stored at a controlled room temperature (15-30 degrees C or 59-86 degrees F), refrigerated (2-8 degrees C or 36-46 degrees F) after reconstitution and used within 30 days.
Other manufacturers are available and preparations may vary.
The terms international units (IUs) can occasionally cause confusion when reconstituting and measuring HCG. The actual process is quite elementary and the concentration per ml (cc) is dependant on the concentration of the lyophilized powder and the volume of dilluent used for reconstitution. For example, if you dilute 5,000 IUs HCG with 5ml (cc) solvent, the end result is 1,000 IUs per ml (cc). Divide the same 5,000 IUs with 10 ml (cc) and the end result is 500 IUs per ml (cc).
*Bacteriostatic water should always be utilized during reconstitution when long term (30 day) storage and multi dose administration are required.
Selective Estrogen Receptor Modulators:
Selective estrogen receptor modulators (SERMs) such as Clomiphine (Clomid) and Tamoxifen (Nolvadex ) increase pituitary LH secretion in secondary manner by blocking estrogen negative feedback on the HPTA. On average, this is not strong enough by itself to counteract the severe imbalance of the androgen:estrogen ratio that is encountered post cycle, especially in the presence of testicular atrophy. Therefore, SERMs are used during PCT primarily as an anti estrogen and to continue the stimulation of pituitary LH after HCG has been discontinued.
Nolvadex is widely available in 10 mg or 20 mg tablet preparations and Clomid is available in 50 mg tablet preparations.
Before Beginning PCT:
It is highly recommended to establish baseline blood values before beginning a cycle. The same principle applies to establishing post cycle blood values, which are necessary for evaluating recovery. Post cycle blood work should be obtained approximately 4 weeks after the cessation of PCT in order to determine accurate readings. Additional blood work should be performed when applicable and/or required.
The following are Fasting blood values:
1. Cortisol, Total
2. Estradiol, Extraction
6. T3, Free
7. T4, Free
9. Testosterone, Total, Free and Weakly Bound
10. Hemoglobin A1C
11. Fasting Insulin
12. Somatomedian C (optional)
14. Comprehensive Metabolic Panel
15. Lipid Panel
16. GGT Important Liver Value not included in Comp Metabolic Panel
When to begin PCT:
On average, begin PCT approximately 5-10 days after your last injection regardless of longer acting esters. Begin PCT 1-3 days after your last injection and/or intake when using short acting esters.
Keep in mind, pituitary LH secretion automatically increases as the hormones diminish from your system. The elevated androgen levels are from an exogenous source and your endogenous production is suppressed. Therefore, waiting for the exogenous androgens to completely clear from your system, ultimately results in lower total concentrations of androgens in your system when beginning PCT. This leads to an unfavorable andgrogen:estrogen ratio and the well known "crash" effect.
*As previously mentioned, the actions of HCG take place independently and is not affected by exogenous hormones and/or preexisting HPTA suppression. There are no contradictions with respect to the effectiveness of HCG usage while exogenous hormones are present in your system.
1.) 1,000 IUs HCG 3x/wk (mon/wed/fri) in combination with 20 mgs Nolvadex ED for the first 3 weeks. After, discontinue HCG and continue with 20 mgs Nolvadex ED for an additional 3 weeks.
2.) 1,000 IUs HCG 3x/wk (mon/wed/fri) in combination with 20 mgs Nolvadex ED and 50 mgs Clomid ED for the first 3 weeks. After, discontinue HCG and continue with 20 mgs Nolvadex ED and 50 mgs Clomid ED for an additional 3 weeks.
3.) 1,500 IUs HCG 3x/wk (mon/wed/fri) in combination with 20 mgs Nolvadex ED for the first 3 weeks. After, discontinue HCG and continue 20 mgs Nolvadex ED for an additional 3 weeks.
4.) 1,500 IUs HCG 3x/wk (mon/wed/fri) in combination with 100 mgs Clomid ED and 20 mgs Nolvadex ED for the first 3 weeks. After, discontinue HCG and continue with 50 mgs Clomid ED and 20 mgs Nolvadex ED for an additional 3 weeks.
Option one can be considered as a standard PCT protocol. This should apply to all basic cycles. Option 2 is generally the same as option one except for the addition of Clomid which is added as a supporting recovery aid. Option three and four incorporate a higher HCG dosage and have a relationship similar to options one and two in the sense that Clomid is incorporated in the latter as a supporting recovery aid.
*The majority of my experience is with intermediate to advanced athletes whom have completed multiple cycles with higher dosages. Therefore, based upon previous blood work results and considering the common or convenient preparations available, we have established that 1,500 IUs 3x/wk (mon/wed/fri) to be the optimal HCG dosage to begin with. The Nolvadex dosage remains unchanged however Clomid is utilized throughout the entire PCT at 100 mgs ED during the first 3 weeks and 50 mgs ED for the last 3 weeks.
HCG During Cycle:
HCG in combination with Nolvadex can and should be used during prolonged (12+/wks) and high dosage (1,000+mgs/wk) cycles. In this case, 500-1,000 IUs HCG ED in combination with 20 mgs Nolvadex ED for 7-10 days consecutively is administered mid cycle or intermittently (every 6-8 weeks) during the cycle.
Maintaining testicular volume during cycle does in fact improve recovery when compared to atrophied testes when beginning PCT. This solution addresses both testicular atrophy and prevention of Leydig cell desensitization (discussed next) associated with HCG usage.
Leydig Cell Desensitization:
Leydig cell desensitization does in fact occur to some degree with prolonged or high dose HCG usage. Using it continuously during a cycle could possibly cause the LH receptor to desensitize which in turn would ultimately render the PCT to be either less effective or possibly useless. This seems counterproductive. HCG will not be needed on cycles where the proper ancillaries are used and where the dosages/durations are realistic.
The previous summary was a general statement. The reality and good news is that Leydig cell desensitization due to HCG usage is blocked and/or minimized by Nolvadex. This occurs by suppressing HCG's ability to inhibit the conversion of 17 alpha hydroxyprogesterone to testosterone.
Additional Factors That Influence Recovery:
Factors that may complicate and/or delay recovery are elevated levels of estrogen and prolactin. Both of these hormones, when elevated, exert negative feedback on the HPTA. Estrogen and its side effects can be controlled by using an aromatase inhibitor such as Aromasin , Femara and Arimidex during cycles including aromatizing AAS. Prolactin and its side effects can be controlled by using an anti Prolactin such as Cabergoline (Dostinex) or Bromocriptine (Parodel) during cycles containing nandrolones. If these measures have not been addressed during the cycle, they will more than likely need to be addressed during PCT. In this scenario, the objective is to lower these hormones to acceptable levels in order to avoid the complications and/or delay in recovery. Blood work is imperative in evaluating the effectiveness of therapy. This will provide a clear and concise answer in regards to the adjustment of dosages and continuation of medication if necessary.
*There are numerous studies which support and refute the association of nandrolones and prolactin. However, based on first hand experience and blood work results, there are far more individuals today whom can testify that the usage of nandrolones can attribute to an increase in prolactin concentrations. In addition, many individuals have reported elevated prolactin levels during cycles which do not contain nandrolones. The common factor within these cases is supraphysiological levels of estrogen. Estrogens act directly at the pituitary level by causing the stimulation of lactotrophs which in turn enhances prolactin secretion. This is another reason why estrogen management in the form of an aromatase inhibitor should be included with cycles containing aromatizing AAS. Although not absolutely necessary and considering the necessary restoration of physiological estrogen values, there is sufficient evidence which suggests that aromatase inhibitors can improve and increase recovery rates.
In some cases the aforementioned post cycle therapy protocols as well as those which are not mentioned may be unsuccessful in the restoration of homeostasis. This should not warrant immediate concern. Many endocrinologists have concluded that the only form of treatment in this particular scenario is hormone replacement therapy (HRT).
This is far from the truth. The reason many endocrinologists have come to this conclusion is due to the fact that very few of them have the experience treating severe forms of secondary acquired hypogonadotropic hypogonadism. They are unfamiliar with proper protocols which include high dosage HCG administration and additional gonadotropin preparations such as HMG or rFSH. This complication puts the patient at risk for potential and unknown side effects in the eyes of the doctor. Therefore, HRT is a reasonable solution since it will quickly alleviate the majority of the uncomfortable symptoms that the patient is experiencing.
Aside from disappointing blood work results which illustrate the typical signs of an unsuccessful recovery, the key physical indicator that the treatment is unsuccessful is testicular atrophy. In this case, HCG is continued with the necessary adjustments in dosage and frequency until an increase in testicular volume has been achieved. There is no one size fits all protocol since every case varies and deserves an individualized approach. Subsequent changes will be based upon the individual's response to each particular stage. All the variable factors involved during the recovery process need to be considered. It's far from accurate to reach the conclusion that HRT is needed if one specific recovery protocol is not successful.
Hypothetically speaking, if testicular function and volume have been maintained during cycle with HCG, SERMs are then utilized to counteract the imbalance in the androgen:estrogen ratio encountered post cycle as the exogenous androgens diminish. This results in the prevention of estrogenic side effects while increasing pituitary LH secretion which in turn increases testosterone production.
There is nothing wrong with using a commonly referred to protocol which recommends 250-500 IUs HCG 1-2x/wk to be incorporated throughout the cycle. However, a significant cause for concern in regards to this protocol relates to the cessation of HCG once the cycle has completed and from that point on, the only substances used during PCT are SERMs which consist of Nolvadex and/or Clomid. Realistically, there is absolutely no guarantee that this formula prevents testicular atrophy to the extent where the overall volume and function of the testes are in an optimal state. Unfortunately, a large majority of individuals do not realize or are not aware that Leydig cell desensitization does in fact occur with prolonged or high dosage HCG usage. Therefore, users which follow this protocol whom do not incorporate Nolvadex or an aromatase inhibitor are now susceptible to Leydig cell desensitization which may render HCG usage post cycle ineffective when and if needed.
During conservative cycles, there is substantial evidence which exists that supports the effectiveness of the HCG during cycle and SERMs only post cycle protocol, especially when proper estrogen and prolactin management has been incorporated. However, this conclusion is much more difficult to achieve on heavy or prolonged cycles. Testicular volume should be maintained to an acceptable extent but that does not necessarily result in an improved recovery as severe HTPA suppression still exists which is not immediately repairable through the usage of SERMs.
The most common argument here when incorporating HCG during PCT is that HCG itself is suppressive. This is true and one particular way this occurs is though the constant binding of HCG which disrupts the endogenous pulsatile secretion of LH. A recent study which included the usage of 250 mcgs Ovidrel (rHCG) 2x/wk for 12 weeks demonstrated that the patients resumed normal HPTA function within four weeks upon cessation, without the usage of SERMs. What's even more interesting is that 250 mcgs rHCG is the equivalent of approximately 5,000 IUs uHCG. Therefore, putting things into perspective, a few additional weeks of suppression is nothing to be overly concerned about compared to and considering the 12 weeks of suppression incurred during the average cycle. The usage of HCG during PCT is a minimally intrusive variable where the benefits clearly exceed the associated costs.
PCT should begin after the last injection and/or AAS intake. More specifically, a relative guideline to begin PCT is within 5-10 days when using long acting esters or 1-3 days when using short acting esters. This PCT protocol should consist of 1,000-1,500 IUs HCG 3x/wk (mod/wed/fri) in combination with 20 mgs Nolvadex ED and, if necessary, 50-100 mgs Clomid ED. The mid/intermittent cycle protocol of 500-1,000 IUs HCG and 20 mgs Nolvadex ED for 7 days consecutively can and should be utilized when necessary during prolonged (12+/wks) or heavy dosage (1,000+mgs/wk) cycles. In addition, blood work should be performed before beginning a cycle and after completing a cycle in order to establish baseline values and evaluate recovery, respectively.
If recovery is unsuccessful, HCG is continued with an adjustment in dosage and frequency as necessary until the increase in testicular volume and function have been achieved which is unlike the more typical, yet incorrect belief that HCG is only to be used for a short period of time. Once there is a plateau in the response to HCG, treatment with an FSH preparation such as human menopausal gonadotropin (HMG) or recombinant follicle stimulating hormone (rFSH) should be added at a starting dose of 75-150 IUs on alternate days. This continual usage is not necessary and avoidable in most cases by utilizing the mid/intermittent protocol previously mentioned, but it is much more common and less avoidable with long term (1+/yr) users, whom have not taken the suggested preventive measures, and/or improper recovery from previous cycles regardless of which protocol is chosen.
With the usage of HCG post cycle, your androgens are elevated but well below that of supraphysiological concentrations from exogenous hormones. In addition, a noteworthy difference is that the effect is through a direct stimulation of testicular production compared to the secondary nature of SERMs in conjunction in the presence of testis that are not guaranteed to be in an optimal functioning state. Upon completion, blood work will display significantly higher levels of LH, FSH and testosterone in this environment which includes HCG and SERMs during PCT versus HCG during cycle and SERMs only during PCT. This ultimately results in a more comfortable as well as tolerable recovery both physically and psychologically. In conclusion, HCG should always be included during PCT in combination with SERMs regardless of what protocol has been utilized during cycle to prevent testicular atrophy, in order to achieve an optimal recovery.
12-30-2005, 04:11 PM #34
thanks for that ^
12-31-2005, 10:49 AM #35
03-08-2006, 06:30 PM #36Senior Member
Originally Posted by Warrior
- Join Date
- May 2002
I'm still reading... This but I can only say that the saying anyone will grow on 1000mg of test is the most well know rebuttal to that's too high a dose. I would say that over 2g even 1000 of testosterone the individual is either wasting money or has enough money to waste and the scar tissue to prove it. I can see the mega doses for a short period being more beneficial than a long period.
I'm not disagreeing or agreeing cause I haven't finished reading... but remember we all have different responses to the same androgen, we all have different muscle density, we all produce target cells at a different rate, most individuals with superior genetics gain muscle mass faster as a lower dose and also have a higher aptitude for up-regulation... along with an affinity to a larger spectrum of testosterone derivatives.
I know I know where is the test data, where is this recorded. Well I'm sorry but I don’t see any major funding on non-bias test groups on how mega-doses or even normal doses HRT are effecting the male populous... the endocrine system is like outer space was 60 yrs ago. Nothing is in stone.
The more muscle mass you have then what... the faster your metabolic rate, a high amount of target cells can occur which is better for those with poor genetics and even better for those with good genetics. The only issue I truly see is getting the amount of nutrients you are going to need. I also think it’s ignorant not to find out the good and bad effects of the difference between 1000 and 2000mgs. It’s called receptor mapping. Basically the good out weights the bad. For instance, presume I took a 1000mg already for 15 weeks with optimal diet and wrote down the effects good and bad. Then my test is 2000mg or 3000mg 15wks. You will realize one or many things. that you may get the same muscle gains taking 2000mg that you did at 1000mg with none to the same sides but at 3000mg you have a slightly higher muscle retention but the sides were much worse than at 2000mg. Does the slightly high retention out weight having no to little sides at 1000mgs. get it...
I want to finish this read before I shed my additional .02.
03-08-2006, 10:17 PM #37
Sup mmaximus25 - been a while... thanks for responding! Where you at these days in your goals? PM me dude...
If you used a high dose, heavy ester you would get full concentration around the same time the gear is stopped. So in reality you would be jacking up the blood androgen levels to an extremely high level - than dropping them back down. Is their a chance this could keep binding proteins and other methods for the body to regulate homeostatis from ruining the results at these high doses? Getting it on full swing - then moving on to PCT. I have like frontloading for this reason. I am still at a stand still on whether or not to try this method... I was considering it as a quick strength cycle after dropping some grissel the past few months...
03-08-2006, 11:33 PM #38
Just to add something to the discussion. This was some info on Paul I researched several years ago. I think some of his theories are interesting but use caution.
Just a quick note on Paul Borreson. While some thought of him as a steroid guru the majority dismissed his ideas and considered his short cycle/large dosages as paramount to suicide. He also came under fire for reportedly giving himself accreditations he did not earn and claiming to be involved with some top BB's which turned out to be false. I would be very careful about taking any of his cycle advice.
03-09-2006, 03:47 AM #39
gr8 read bro
03-09-2006, 06:46 PM #40Senior Member
- Join Date
- May 2002
As I've said to warrior in PM long ago I've learned from him and others hear by going back and readjusting my androgens and anabolics according to half-life. I truly belief now that the point of reaching a near full serum level for a longer period results in a more mature growth process. So what is the point these days if you don't reach full serum level or what would be considered full serum potential? I’d also like to add I am not the typical BB’er I call myself simply an athlete with a heavy right and left upper cut that cuts. I do not compete nor do I want to. If I had better genetics and sought to earn an income as a Pro BB’er I think I’d go with tried and proven cycles per my friends that complete before I would try the above. Please don’t take this as a rant I’m just long winded
The above 18day or 30 day stack is far more complex than I originally thought but still leave me with the same questions and personal opinion.
#1. With the addition of metabolic enhancing drugs such as T3 which effect your thyroid I would say 3weeks on 6 weeks off is the best cycle but there’s no reference to the admin of it above. Anyway, you are much more effective in digesting a larger amount of calories the kind of around 4k-6k when taking T3, L-carnitine, etc. and a whole slew of other metabolic enhancing drugs, minerals, vitamins and aminos. This leaves me thinking… I wasn't successful in my past reaching 4-6k cals ed with out high fat and high starch... even now I can only stomach (no pun intended) high calories if they are rich with fat. all clean cals, let me tell you be prepared to shit and be uncomforatble and have unconscience farts rendering you mate unconscience also)
I remember the article touching on diet and how good it needs to be. That’s not good enough for me. There are so many issues with weight training and poor dieting, most are poor at dieting to begin with... this article makes it sound like oh and good diet is a must, as if it’s some what simple.
Tangents gotta lovem.
#2 even with the use of T3 and the ability to digest and break down nutrients and the obvious amount of androgens you still won’t reach a high serum level of the longer esters. Maybe this is apart of the plan but I would raise the question why not use orals, mix with a test suspension and propionate utilizing a higher serum level through shorter esters. You will have full serum level in a matter of days. So it seems that the half life to me is serving as some kind of let down process (taper) as if you are going into a bridge (all very complex, further more doing all of the above article, more closely the insulin mixed with all the drugs I've never researched... would scare me without having someone to manage it for me or help).
The article goes on to say he would most likely roll into a 6 week low dose (problem is that portion is not stated with the 18day cyc). I have a problem understanding this portion because with my understanding of up and down regulation of target sites/cells this seems hindering in your over all mega-dose… either you are mega dosing or you are not. When I took close to 4g of test and deca a week I did so for over 8 weeks I guarantee you I would be singing different praises if it would have been prop for 8 week at 2g wk.
1. The diet is not that easy, and even the most experienced guys will have trouble with a 6-9k clean diet. In order to support any where near the amount of androgens you’re talking about there will need to be a huge over all calorie intake. (I don’t care how much you spend on your gear but you’ll waste even more not being able to match you nutrient, androgen to metabolic expectation ratio) I find it truly hard to believe those calories will be clean. I also can say if there is a plateau that anyone has reached I believe there are far better methods at getting past it than the above. Things as simple as cycling your T3, insulin and IGF-1 with large amounts of rich fats starch and solid proteins. No shake compares to double cheese burgers every 2hrs and eating 3lbs of beef a day along with 1 to 1-1/2 , 5lb bags of red potatoes(about 15-20 potatoes) with 2-3 heads of romaine lettuce…. Ohh, ohh not done 6-12 eggs before bed. Try that on I guarantee you will be amazed literally you will shit on your self. Thats 7k in cals with only the beef and potatoes not to mention the cheese burgers and lettuce, eggs (That diet is not a joke it also is a straight forward intermediate to advanced BBer diet, add nolvadex , T3, clen , R-ALA, Vitamins, glutamine, tuarine and the rest branch change aminos and we now have a simple yet serious anabolic atmosphere minus the androgens… Then begin your androgenic /anabolic cycle after beginning your diet) I’m going to sound like a broken record through out this whole F&^king thing but forget about adding androgens till you master the art of eating…. but for real eatting.)
2. Undoubtedly there is a significant amount of waste created with that amount of gear stated and food that is needed above. Your digestive system will need an above average of fiber. The tricky part here is because the use of T3 and insulin are involved you will have the ability to down right eat a horse and use a good 75-80% of that 4k-6k calorie intake but I don’t see the diet being atop the alter only the cycle theory.
3. There are a whole slew of drug mentioned that personally I have never taken nor do I know exactly what they do. Hint. I don’t take anything unless I have an understanding of what and who thinks this is what this drug is used for.
4. There are so many variables with the above it’s so hard to pinpoint each but I’m getting a feeling this is one of those if you take enough something’s bound to happen feelings. I can say this I would like to kick my self for wasting my money on juice I never really used. Ex. 400mg enanthate for 20weeks, 1g cyp 15weeks or 2g a week for 4 weeks your serum level will be higher longer with the first two, allowing you to benefit from the from a good diet and hard training. If 4weeks then why not 2g prop with provirion, nolvadex and HCG . I have a little problem understanding and straight don’t like the idea of long esters short cycles.
5.Again, I don’t agree with the androgen type per period taken. Even if I agreed with the whole cycle I wouldn’t use those long esters. 18days that’s less than three weeks meaning you’re getting the highest serum level after your last shot then on into a bridge. Why? Why not be closer to 85-90% serum per androgen if the mega dose is going to be less than three weeks (I might have misread something but I still see 18days and deca and enanthate in the stack)
6. Remember the higher amount of androgen the faster your body will try and remove the foreign substance. Your body as a negative feed back response will undoubtedly realize there are unneeded amounts of hormones and along with your helpful metabolic enhancers begin converting/removing the hormones. Your estrogen levels will be high so I see how liquidex and armidex is a must.
7. Ok here’s the thing If this is in effort to break a plateau it could be done with a drastic change in diet along with a 10 week mega dose extended into a down regulation 10-15 week dose cycle. Tot****g 20-30weeks where you up-regulate due to the amount of androgen introduced then a planned down regulation of target cells. I can’t stress enough that your anabolic atmosphere starts with the amount of calories you can use not the amount of androgens. I could see 2 to 1g a week of propionate for 10weeks then change your androgen to a suspension mixed with that propionate (if someone replies but that will hurt I’m going to point out the above is stating located sites at 2.5ml per site 4 times a day every day) Prop doesn’t hurt, if it does it’s the little girl inside you trying to get out.
8. Warrior touched on a second avenue… That I will add onto. If you what to experiment with mega doses do it with short ester so you can get out of trouble if need be. Experiment with front loads but extended a little Ex w1-5 2g prop, w1-10 1g cyp, 1-15 2g deca, 1-5 50mg d-bol, 12-15 winny, fina or halo.
9. I have mixed feelings because I feel I may not have read the full article, It sounds like too much is missing and the avenue along with the amounts of food/ gear aren’t presented with any purpose, other than hey don’t knock it till you tried it. If I ever post my scripts I will undoubtedly give my logic behind the dosing as well as how I propose to intake the number of calories I suggest.
10. What was the point of this again? A big guy getting over his plateau. I still have to note every one should realize that most armature BB’ers take much more that the veteran pros. There is a level of maintenance that I believe most over look. Once you attain a particular size yes it is harder to add large amounts of skeletal tissue but with drugs like IGF, insulin, T3; along with a short burst of mega doses with in a longer overall cycle can get most over any hump. I think the trick is finding your optimal dose and then experimenting with doubling that for a 5-6wks get off for 5-6 weeks using T3, IGF, HCG and a high calorie diet while off then repeat all year.
11. I also need to add there aren’t that many pros that have the type of genetics that call for such drastic measures as the above.
Last edited by mmaximus25; 03-19-2006 at 09:02 PM.
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