HCG, CLOMID, ARIMIDEX or NOLVADEX

[no1]

Hi.
I read up on this forum and it seems that all of those ( HCG , CLOMID, ARIMIDEX or NOLVADEX ) used for a similar thing after a cycle of AS... all used to get your sex organs back on line.
If that is true which one is the best one to use?

Because right now i am a bit worried... I started my first cycle 2 days ago ( Depotrone or Testosterone cypionate ) and already i am having problems bringing it up.. if you know what i mean... is this normal?
Should i be worried? Should i get one of the above chemicals and start using it with Depatrone maybe?

Any advice is welcome

Thanx.

[Madmax]

it's in your head..if you took your first shot 2 days ago..then your natural test levels have not started to decline...your going to be getting it up more than you ever have before once that test kicks in.which will be about 3-4 weeks...it's not until the end of your cycle that you'll begin having problems.make sure you have clomid and nolvadex on hand..and run the clomid at the end and the nolva if you start getting signs of gyno....Madmax..

[no1]

I hope you are right and its just in my head...
gonna get clomid and other stuff asap...

[Madmax]

don't run the clomid yet..wait till the end of your cycle...it is completely imposible that the test shut you down in 2 days....NO Way Possible...run your cycle and then run your clomid..what else are you planning to run with that...Madmax..

[kazual]

Just a question, do you have the anti e's that you listed? and what does your cycle and post cyle look like?

[DangerousGrounds]

Clomid and HCG
By Nick and Bigfella - MuscleTalk.co.uk moderators
Nick can be contacted through the Muscletalk forum for any questions or comments.

Additional Information
- Learn how to use steroids safely and effectively and get maximum gains in the shortest possible time, with steroid expert Mick Hart. Click here for more info.




One of the most frequently asked questions on MuscleTalk is how to use Clomid and HCG correctly.

(A note to Americans - when I say 'oestrogen' I mean 'estrogen' - we spell it correctly in the UK!)

Why Bodybuilders Use Clomid
Clomid is a generic name for Clomiphene Citrate and is a synthetic oestrogen. It is prescribed medically to aid ovulation in low fertility females. Another generic name is Serophene.

Most anabolic steroids , especially the androgens, cause inhibition of the body's own testosterone production. When a bodybuilder comes off a steroid cycle, natural testosterone production is zero and the levels of the steroids taken in the blood are diminishing. This leaves the ratios of catabolic : anabolic hormones in the blood high, hence the body is in a state of catabolism, and, as a result, much of the muscle tissue that was gained on the cycle is now going to be lost.

Clomid stimulates the hypothalamus to, in turn stimulant the anterior pituitary gland (aka hypophysis) to release gonadotrophic hormones. The gonadotrophic hormones are follicle stimulating hormone (FSH) and luteinizing hormone (LH - aka interstitial cell stimulating hormone (ICSH)). FSH stimulates the testes to produce more testosterone, and LH stimulates them to secrete more testosterone. This feedback mechanism is known as the hypothalamic-pituitary-testes axis (HPTA), and results in an increase of the body's own testosterone production and blood levels rise, to, in part, compensate for the diminishing levels of exogenous steroids. This is vital to minimise post cycle muscle losses.

Not all steroids do cause shut down of the feedback mechanism. Everyone is different and you must also take into account how long you have been using a certain steroid and at what dose in order to determine if you need Clomid or not.

Clomid also works as an anti-oestrogen. As it's a weak synthetic oestrogen, it binds to oestrogen receptors on cells blocking them to oestrogen in the blood. This minimises the negative effects like gynecomastia and water retention that may be a result of oestrogen that has aromatised from testosterone.

It's effect as an anti-oestrogen are quite weak though, and it should not be relied upon if you are going to be using androgenic steroids that aromatise at a rapid rate, or if you are pre-disposed to gynecomastia. Arimidex and Nolvadex (Tamoxifen ) are far more effective anti-oestrogens.

Important note: Clomid does not, as is often thought, stimulate the release of natural testosterone, but rather works at reducing the oestrogenic inhibition caused by the steroid cycle. It does this in a similar manner to the way it and Nolvadex block oestrogen receptors in nipples to combat gyno development, i.e. by blocking the oestrogen receptors in the hypothalamus and pituitary thus reducing the inhibition from the elevated oestrogen. This allows LH levels to return to normal, or even above normal levels, and in turn, natural testosterone levels to also normalise.

Inhibition of the HPTA is caused by either elevated androgen, oestrogen or progesterone levels. On cessation of the steroid cycle, androgen levels begin to fall and Clomid dosing is normally commenced according to the half-life of the longest acting drug in the system (see below).

This may also explain the reason individuals often find post-deca recovery more difficult, as the progesterone presence is untouched by the Clomid. We know that Clomid and Nolvadex (being very similar chemically) are both ineffective with regard to reducing progesterone related gyno, so it is reasonable to assume that Clomid has little effect against progesterone levels.

Clomid During A Cycle
When we use anabolic steroids , the level of androgens in the body rises causing the androgen receptors to become more highly activated, and through the HPTA, a signal tells our testes to stop producing testosterone. During a cycle the body has far higher than normal levels of androgens and, as long as this level is high enough, Clomid will not help to keep natural testosterone production up. It will be almost all but completely shut off, in theory.

Some heavy androgen users, however, do advocate a small burst of Clomid mid-cycle, though it must be hard for them to say if it really of any benefit, due to the amount of gear they are using. Therefore, the only purpose of Clomid during a cycle is as an anti-estrogen.


When To Start Clomid
The correct time to commence Clomid depends on the type and cycle of steroids you have been using. Different steroids have different half-lifes (indicates the time a substance diminishes in blood), and Clomid administration should be taken accordingly.

As we have seen above, Clomid taken when androgen levels in our blood are still high will be a waste. It is crucial to wait for androgen levels to fall before implementing our Clomid therapy. However, if taken too late we could possibly lose gains.

The list below determines when you should start Clomid. Select from the list any steroids you've used in your cycle and whichever one has the latest starting point is the time to commence Clomid. For example, if Dianabol , Sustanon and Winstrol were cycled, the time for administering Clomid should be 3 weeks post cycle, as Sustanon remains active in the body for the longest period of time.

Steroid Time after
last administration Length of
Clomid Cycle
Anadrol50/Anapolan50: 8 - 12 hours 3 weeks
Deca durabolan: 3 weeks 4 weeks
Dianabol: 4 - 8 hours 3 weeks
Equipoise : 17 - 21 days 3 weeks
Finajet/Trenbolone : 3 days 3 weeks
Primabolan depot: 10 - 14 days 2 weeks
Sustanon: 3 weeks 3 weeks
Testosterone Cypionate : 2 weeks 3 weeks
Testosterone Enanthate /Testaviron: 2 weeks 3 weeks
Testosterone Propionate : 3 days 3 weeks
Testosterone Suspension : 4 - 8 hours 2-3 weeks
Winstrol 8 - 12 hours 2-3 weeks


How To Take Clomid
Clomid has a long half-life (possibly 5 days), so there is no need to split up doses throughout the day. If Sustanon has been used and Clomid is commenced 3 weeks after the last injection, I would estimate that androgen levels are low enough to start sending the correct signals. If androgen levels are still a little high, we need to start at a high enough amount that will work or help, even if androgen levels are still a little high. Try 300mg on day 1; then use 100mg for the next 10 days; followed by 50mg for 10 days.

Using HCG
It is our opinion that HCG is probably one of the most misunderstood and misused compounds in bodybuilding. Hopefully this information will go some way towards rectifying that for the members of MuscleTalk. HCG stands for Human Chorionic Gonadotrophin and is not a steroid, but a natural peptide hormone which develops in the placenta of pregnant women during pregnancy to controls the mother's hormones. (Incidentally, this is the reason you may hear of people testing for growth hormone (HGH) with a pregnancy testing kit - If their HGH shows 'pregnant', they've been ripped-off with cheaper HCG - but we digress slightly).

Its action in the male body is like that of LH, stimulating the Leydig cells in the testes to produce testosterone even in the absence of endogenous LH. HCG is therefore used during longer or heavier steroid cycles to maintain testicular size and condition, or to bring atrophied (shrunken) testicles back up to their original condition in preparation for post-cycle Clomid therapy. This process is necessary because atrophied testicles produce reduced levels of natural testosterone, this situation should be rectified prior to post-cycle Clomid therapy.

HCG administration post-cycle is common practice among bodybuilders in the belief that it will aid the natural testosterone recovery, but this theory is unfounded and also counterproductive. The rapid rise in both testosterone, and thus oestrogen due to aromatisation, from the administration of HCG causes further inhibition of the HPTA (Hypothalamic/Pituitary/Testicular Axis - feedback loop discussed above); this actually worsens the recovery situation. HCG does not restore the natural testosterone production.

The typically observed dosing of 2000 to 5000IU every 4 to 5 days causes such an increase in oestrogen levels via aromatisation of the natural testosterone that this has been responsible for many cases of gynecomastia.

From the above discussion it is clear that HCG is best used during a cycle, either to:

1) Avoid testicular atrophy, or
2) Rectify the problem of an existing testicular atrophy.

Doses of HCG
Smaller doses, more frequently during a cycle will give best overall results with least unwanted side effects. Somewhere between 500iu and 1000iu per day would be best over about a two-week period. These doses are sufficient to avoid/rectify testicular atrophy without increasing oestrogen levels too dramatically and risking gynecomastia. This dosing schedule also avoids the risk of permanently down-regulating the LH receptors in the testes.

Presentation and Administration of HCG
Synthetic HCG is often known as Pregnyl (generic name) and is available in 2500iu and 5000iu (not ideal for the above doses!). Administration of the compound is either by intra-muscular or subcutaneous injection. It comes as a powder which needs to be mixed with the sterile water. The powder is temperature-sensitive prior to mixing and should not be exposed to direct heat. After mixing, it should be kept refrigerated and used within a few weeks - though there are sterility issues which need to be considered after mixing.

Summary and Price of Clomid and HCG
Clomid is more effective than HCG post cycle, but some long-term users like to use HCG during a cycle, or to prepare the testes for Clomid therapy.

[Madmax]

DangerousGrounds good post...Madmax..

[no1]

ok... for now im just doing one injection of Testosterone Cipionate a week.
and my dick is back on line...

[Madmax]

how many mg are you taking per shot..whats the rest of your cycle looke like...Madmax...

[Warrior]

What does this cycle look like???

Losing sex drive with testosterone ? WTF? Not me brah... I even get some of those kick ass war dreams with hot chicks in them - and wake up with a nice stiffy from it all. Testosterone should increase your libido...

[no1]

all i do right now it 2 mg shot of Test Cipionate ones a week...
good bad?

[Madmax]

bad..you should have stacked it with deca or eq...and started your cycle out with d-bol...if your goal is too gain mass then that's what you should have ran..talk to us before you start your next cycle..it's not to late since you've only been on for 3 days to get this stuff...if you do try this...Madmax..

test 400mg or 500mg (1-10)
deca or eq 300 (1-10) -test at a higher dose than deca or eq..
d-bol 30mg (1-4)
clomid post cycle and nolvadex on hand

[Warrior]

Originally posted by no1
all i do right now it 2 mg shot of Test Cipionate ones a week...
good bad?

Should inject every 3-4 days to hit your goal mg's. Which issss ?!?! HOW MUCH ARE YOU TRYING TO TAKE? 100, 200, 800mg/wk? And...

You weigh 150lbs (68 kg)? I will disagree theat this guy need to run heavy stacks if this is indeed his bodyweight. He didn't even need to run an androgen to begin with - just some serious diet tweaks...

Nonetheless, glad to see your unit is back online - it easy to blame shit on AAS, but sometimes it is other things that contribute to a possible problem... Testosterone does not equal limp dick - wait until post cycle

[no1]

thanx for input guys...
I will see if i can get the rest of the stuff.. cause i am still only on my first injection..

even though it seem to be working...
b4 this no matter what diet i got i stay on 150 pounds.. even if i pig out every day..
now i piced up 10 pounds in 4 days... heh..